Nearly half of Jewish Israelis support discrimination against non-Jews
137 replies, posted
[QUOTE=katbug;42438898]No, I'm not being anti-semetic at all. I'm actually wondering why they are the be all and end all scapegoat of the past forever, across literally everywhere they've ever been ever.
I never said it was reasonable, I just said that there's got to be a reason, social or otherwise why they have been the literal only peoples throughout history who have been rejected everywhere across the planet until the past few years.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's because the Jews are a tiny ethnic minority with little in the way of protection?
Please explain why Poland-Lithuania accepted so many of them with open arms as well?
[QUOTE=Ownederd;42438925]People looking or asking for a reason is something that contributes to the racism issue in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Except it's a perfectly legitimate and answerable question? Probably something to do with the fact that they were a nomadic and segregated culture and were forced to make their living doing jobs that the people they lived by were forbidden from doing, making them easy to dehumanize?
It's not racist to ask why people were racist. That's absolutely preposterous.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42438944]Maybe it's because the Jews are a tiny ethnic minority with little in the way of protection?
Please explain why Poland-Lithuania accepted so many of them with open arms as well?[/QUOTE]
I don't have to explain anything, I asked a question, not everything that doesn't support you is an attack.
[editline]6th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ownederd;42438925]People looking or asking for a reason is something that contributes to the racism issue in the first place.[/QUOTE]
So my asking why there is a pattern of racism against a people is racist.
Fuck off.
[QUOTE=katbug;42438962]I don't have to explain anything, I asked a question, not everything that doesn't support you is an attack.[/QUOTE]
Well it's just that people who say "You know, maybe it's the Jews own fault they've been kicked out of every country" is not only antisemitic but morally disgusting.
Like, over 6 million of them died in an act of genocide about 70 years ago, these people have been through a lot of shit.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42438913]I was putting it into context for him, you can use the past history of many people in order to justify present unethical actions. Jewish Israelis are not an exception to the rule. It is not okay for almost half of Israel's Jews to be okay with discriminating against over 20 percent of Israel's citizens.[/QUOTE]
it's not exactly past history. and israel continues to be surrounded by nations that have vowed to destroy it
[QUOTE=katbug;42438962]I don't have to explain anything, I asked a question, not everything that doesn't support you is an attack.[/QUOTE]
Except they didn't say that it was an attack at all and was simply responding to your question with a question of their own?
[quote]So my asking why there is a pattern of racism against a people is racist.
Fuck off.[/quote]
He didn't say that at all, and your hostilities aren't helping anything.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42438944]Maybe it's because the Jews are a tiny ethnic minority with little in the way of protection?
Please explain why Poland-Lithuania accepted so many of them with open arms as well?[/QUOTE]
If I recall correctly, the king of Poland-Lithuania fell in love and married a Jewish girl, so he decided to invite her people to his country.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42439008]it's not exactly past history. and israel continues to be surrounded by nations that have vowed to destroy it[/QUOTE]
Didn't quite help that the West had an orientalist solution to the Jewish question and decided to grant them a state in a region that didn't have anything to do with the European antisemitism. The fact that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed during Israel's creation wasn't helpful either.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42438980]Well it's just that people who say "You know, maybe it's the Jews own fault they've been kicked out of every country" is not only antisemitic but morally disgusting.
Like, over 6 million of them died in an act of genocide about 70 years ago, these people have been through a lot of shit.[/QUOTE]
Ooh my god, I'm not questioning the validity of the fucking holocaust.
I'm asking WHY they have been descriminated against so much- even if 6 quintillion died, this question would be valid. Way more than 6 million died under the reign of Lenin, and far more under Mao- we try to rationalize and understand that, so why not this?
I'm not going to be uber politically correct because I might hurt your feelings.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42439048]Didn't quite help that the West had an orientalist solution to the Jewish question and decided to grant them in a region that didn't have anything to do with the European antisemitism. The fact that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed during Israel's creation wasn't helpful either.[/QUOTE]
actually the whole, wanting the masses of disenfranchised jews to be anywhere other than europe had alot to do with european anti-semitism.
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=katbug;42439064]Ooh my god, I'm not questioning the validity of the fucking holocaust.
I'm asking WHY they have been descriminated against so much- even if 6 quintillion died, this question would be valid. Way more than 6 million died under the reign of Lenin, and far more under Mao- we try to rationalize and understand that, so why not this?
I'm not going to be uber politically correct because I might hurt your feelings.[/QUOTE]
the same reason every group that's faced this kind of shit has been discriminated against, ignorant masses being controlled by scape-goating leaders
[QUOTE=katbug;42439064]
I'm asking WHY they have been descriminated against so much[/QUOTE]
The way you worded it suggested otherwise. It sounded angered/inflammatory, as if you were joking about it. I think this is a huge misunderstanding on both sides.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42439069]actually the whole, wanting the masses of disenfranchised jews to be anywhere other than europe had alot to do with european anti-semitism.[/QUOTE]
I think you misinterpreted my post, I was referring to how the "noble" West's solution was moving them to a region that had nothing to do with European antisemitism. Establishing Israel in Palestine had everything to do with European antisemitism even though its native inhabitants had nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=katbug;42439064]I'm asking WHY they have been descriminated against so much- even if 6 quintillion died, this question would be valid. Way more than 6 million died under the reign of Lenin, and far more under Mao- we try to rationalize and understand that, so why not this?[/quote]
Because antisemitism has been rife in Europe since the Roman Empire, where as a tiny minority with no legal protections, they could be scapegoated for anything.
[quote]I'm not going to be uber politically correct because I might hurt your feelings.[/QUOTE]
We're asking you to remember the 6 million, not to denigrate an entire ethnicity.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42439091]I think you misinterpreted my post, I was referring to how the "noble" West's solution was moving them to a region that had nothing to do with European antisemitism.[/QUOTE]
yes it had nothing to do with european antisemitism when you put it like that because it's not europe. there was still alot of anti-semitism in the ottoman empire and that region after the fall of the empire
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42439098]Because antisemitism has been rife in Europe since the Roman Empire, where as a tiny minority with no legal protections, they could be scapegoated for anything.
We're asking you to remember the 6 million, not to denigrate an entire ethnicity.[/QUOTE]
If you think that anyone in America doesn't have "remember the 6 million" pounded in their skulls from public education, you have another thing coming.
Though the holocaust was horrible- beyond horrible,the fact that it's thrown up in the way it is, as a blanket "you can't say anything" disgusts me. Did you know that 45 million people died due to Mao's great leap? I didn't. The only reason I know that is that it was mentioned once offhandedly at the end of a slide talking about communism as a blanket ideology. Meanwhile, we had an entire unit just on the holocaust (not ww2, the holocaust).
Millions of people have died through history, and even in recent history such figures can be conjured. But those figures are in no way a valid reason to say you can't discuss something.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42439116]yes it had nothing to do with european antisemitism when you put it like that because it's not europe. there was still alot of anti-semitism in the ottoman empire and that region after the fall of the empire[/QUOTE]
Do you not understand the point I am making? Western powers decided to solve European antisemitism by taking the orientalist approach, making Arabs thousands of miles away pay for it. They undeservedly got fucked over by unwelcome and violent state-building. That is like the entire point of the Arab world's issue with the establishment of Israel.
[QUOTE=katbug;42439133]If you think that anyone in America doesn't have "remember the 6 million" pounded in their skulls from public education, you have another thing coming.
Though the holocaust was horrible- beyond horrible,the fact that it's thrown up in the way it is, as a blanket "you can't say anything" disgusts me. Did you know that 45 million people died due to Mao's great leap? I didn't. The only reason I know that is that it was mentioned once offhandedly at the end of a slide talking about communism as a blanket ideology. Meanwhile, we had an entire unit just on the holocaust (not ww2, the holocaust).
Millions of people have died through history, and even in recent history such figures can be conjured. But those figures are in no way a valid reason to say you can't discuss something.[/QUOTE]
the difference is that the holocaust was an attempt to wipe out an entire race
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
and noones saying you can't discuss it, just maybe that you should use some decorum when you're talking about it
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
i.e. not saying something like 'Maybe there's a reason why they've been kicked out by literally everyone ever?'
[QUOTE=katbug;42439133]If you think that anyone in America doesn't have "remember the 6 million" pounded in their skulls from public education, you have another thing coming.[/quote]
It's clear some people don't get the message, especially due to the fact that holocaust denialists exist.
[quote]Though the holocaust was horrible- beyond horrible,the fact that it's thrown up in the way it is, as a blanket "you can't say anything" disgusts me.[/quote]
Yet you are suggesting that it could be the Jews own fault in your original statement?
[quote]Millions of people have died through history, and even in recent history such figures can be conjured.[/QUOTE]
What are you implying here? That somehow the holocaust may have been exaggerated?
[QUOTE=katbug;42438305]You know, I don't usually like to say this, but....
Maybe there's a reason why they've been kicked out by literally everyone ever?[/QUOTE]Are you fucking stupid? What the hell is wrong with you, everyone, literally EVERYONE KNOWS the answer and you're just refusing to admit a simple truth. I suppose you'd like to know it, because you're playing the "I don't know help me!!!" card liberals love to play. Fine, I'll tell you.
Adolf Hitler is a time traveler.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42439179]It's clear some people don't get the message, especially due to the fact that holocaust denialists exist.
Yet you are suggesting that it could be the Jews own fault in your original statement?
What are you implying here? That somehow the holocaust may have been exaggerated?[/QUOTE]
And we watch, as sobotonik tries to make me a holocaust denier.
I'm saying that maybe there's a reason for this pattern, and I am wondering what that reason would be. A race being so universally hated for so long and then suddenly not is unusual and a phenomenon that I want to understand more deeply.
And the last statement is that millions of people die in awful wars/happenings/genocides/autogenocides all the time, and that the holocaust isn't a unique special snowflake in that regard, but we use it as a blanket excuse to let israel do whatever they want, and to not question it or risk being "antisemetic"
[QUOTE=katbug;42439222]And we watch, as sobotonik tries to make me a holocaust denier.[/QUOTE]
Quit with the persecution complex - is this comment really needed?
[QUOTE]I'm saying that maybe there's a reason for this pattern, and I am wondering what that reason would be. A race being so universally hated for so long and then suddenly not is unusual and a phenomenon that I want to understand more deeply.[/QUOTE]
Lachz0r cited some pretty good reasons.
[QUOTE]And the last statement is that millions of people die in awful wars/happenings/genocides/autogenocides all the time, and that the [B]holocaust isn't a unique special snowflake in that regard[/B], but we use it as a blanket excuse to let israel do whatever they want, and to not question it or risk being "antisemetic"[/QUOTE]
The holocaust was an an literal attempt at genocide. What are you arguing?
[QUOTE=katbug;42439222]And we watch, as sobotonik tries to make me a holocaust denier.[/quote]
People who say "There's a reason the Jews were kicked out" tend to also be massive antisemites as well.
[quote]I'm saying that maybe there's a reason for this pattern, and I am wondering what that reason would be. A race being so universally hated for so long and then suddenly not is unusual and a phenomenon that I want to understand more deeply.[/quote]
Jewish people still are hated by many. Just read the news. Fuck, look at stormweenies or /pol/.
[quote]And the last statement is that millions of people die in awful wars/happenings/genocides/autogenocides all the time, and that the holocaust isn't a unique special snowflake in that regard, but we use it as a blanket excuse to let israel do whatever they want, and to not question it or risk being "antisemetic"[/QUOTE]
Except the holocaust isn't being used to defend Israel. Where did you get this idea from, because it generally tends to be fringe loony pundits who say that.
[QUOTE=katbug;42439222]And we watch, as sobotonik tries to make me a holocaust denier.
I'm saying that maybe there's a reason for this pattern, and I am wondering what that reason would be. A race being so universally hated for so long and then suddenly not is unusual and a phenomenon that I want to understand more deeply.
And the last statement is that millions of people die in awful wars/happenings/genocides/autogenocides all the time, and that the holocaust isn't a unique special snowflake in that regard, but we use it as a blanket excuse to let israel do whatever they want, and to not question it or risk being "antisemetic"[/QUOTE]
i gave you the reasons. ignorance and scape goating. there is never any reason other than these for bigotry. and jews are still quite universally hated, it's just that it's less acceptable to be openly anti-semitic so you either only find it round-about anti-semitism in public or outright anti-semitism in private. and the holocaust is unique, because it's the first time a developed nation in the modern world tried to systematically annihilate an entire race
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42439266]
Except the holocaust isn't being used to defend Israel. Where did you get this idea from, because it generally tends to be fringe loony pundits who say that.[/QUOTE]
In that Defamation movie someone posted there are a few people in it who say they are literally guilt tripping people with the Holocaust to get their way, is that not using the Holocaust to defend Israel?
[QUOTE=Linkage;42439513]In that Defamation movie someone posted there are a few people in it who say they are literally guilt tripping people with the Holocaust to get their way, is that not using the Holocaust to defend Israel?[/QUOTE]
It's a far cry from the conspiracy theory that an entire country remains existing simply because it goes around telling people "the 6 million".
Did you watch the film?
[QUOTE=katbug;42438305]You know, I don't usually like to say this, but....
Maybe there's a reason why they've been kicked out by literally everyone ever?[/QUOTE]
okay i tend to lean pretty anti-Israel when it comes to controversy like this but that's pretty fuckin' anti-Semitic-sounding man
Honestly, it's just hatred and war is practically indoctrinating to most. Remember, each person in Israel is required to serve in the military. An example to how this type of shit starts:
Your name is Shir, a fifteen year old female living in Tel-Aviv. Your brother, Abraham, was recently enlisted. After a year of service, you receive a letter that he was killed in action. The news doesn't state who killed him, only referring to them as "Muslims" and "Terrorists" (Similar terminology to the US). Your family is distraught, your neighbors and family friends are furious and saddened at the same time. They begin to spread the story around. Of course, the killer, never has his name mentioned. He will always be described no more than "An Arab" (Which is synonymous to 'A Muslim' in many eyes.) as if to give them a single identity. It develops hatred.
A few days later, you may hear other stories. Others being wounded or hurt during service. The news likes to focus on and dramatize these types of stories. You hear about a car explosion caused by Muslim terrorists. A car blows up, a bomb explodes, a man was wounded, security guards were killed. Israeli media goes out of their way to focus on these stories which happen far more often than in the United States. It's always emphasized that the Muslims do these crimes. It's never a hard-working Jewish citizen. It's a [i]terrorist[/i], not a serial killer. Not a psychopath.
Eventually, the news begins to link these events together in your mind. Many areas of Israel lack experience with Muslims or Arabs. If the only thing you hear about them is what the extremists do, it becomes the only image in your mind. They become seen as savage animals with a thirst of destruction in the name of their monstrous religion. You'll eventually have kids. Your stories will pass onto them, only making it more difficult to remove the prejudice from their minds. This is the genesis of prejudice and intolerance. It isn't about anyone being evil or warmongers.
Racism and intolerance are simply passed down from generation to generation through media and stories. The only way it will end is with experience. When a couple in Israel--regardless of religion--can become wed without disapproval. When an Orthodox Jew can reach out to those who fought against his country. As cheesy as it may sound, this is truly the only way racism will ever end. People learning to forget what the media shows them of other cultures and to experience them first-hand. Of course when people only hear of the car-bombs and murders do Jewish inhabitants of Israel despise the 'Non-Jews' (Mostly Muslims) and wish to have them stripped of rights.
(It's 2:00AM, excuse any typos or such I happened to make.)
It's not about people learning to forget what their media shows them, the media itself should stop being intolerant and biased.
[QUOTE=Monkah;42439802]Honestly, it's just hatred and war is practically indoctrinating to most. Remember, each person in Israel is required to serve in the military. An example to how this type of shit starts:
Your name is Shir, a fifteen year old female living in Tel-Aviv. Your brother, Abraham, was recently enlisted. After a year of service, you receive a letter that he was killed in action. The news doesn't state who killed him, only referring to them as "Muslims" and "Terrorists" (Similar terminology to the US). Your family is distraught, your neighbors and family friends are furious and saddened at the same time. They begin to spread the story around. Of course, the killer, never has his name mentioned. He will always be described no more than "An Arab" (Which is synonymous to 'A Muslim' in many eyes.) as if to give them a single identity. It develops hatred.[/QUOTE]
Israel is proof that conscription isn't a deterrent to warmongering
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