Flying Confederate flag ends in suspension for high school junior - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40670387]is it okay to wear a shirt that says "niggers should get lynched" as long as they dont actually hang anyone?[/QUOTE] Sure. All that does is hurt peoples feelings. It doesn't say "niggers will be lynched", which is clearly threatening.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670388]the american flag represents a country that committed genocide en masse against native americans, blacks, and oppressed every minority to date should we deem that not acceptable too?[/QUOTE] if you want anyone to take you seriously and actually have a conversation with you about this instead of just ignoring you for their own sake you should stop making such hyper-simplified comparisons and exaggerations like this. if you can't understand the difference between a nazi or confederate flag and the flag of the United States (or at least stop pretending that you dont for the sake of your argument) theres no reason for me or anyone else to try talking to you about this

[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40670420]Sure. All that does is hurt peoples feelings. It doesn't say "niggers will be lynched", which is clearly threatening.[/QUOTE] lmfao im done

people are always so quick to give fascists civil rights, forgetting the fact that the only thing a fascist will give you is a boot to the face

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670410]my question is who has the right to determine what is morally right and wrong, and what opinions are and are not acceptable[/QUOTE] I'm going to respond to this one rather than your whole mess of stuff you've said before because - spoiler - Students don't have actual access to the rights enumerated in the constitution (SCOTUS precedent).

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40670417]would the central part of "american" ideology be the genocide committed? nazism and kkk are both white supremacist. the core of these ideologies are genocide. that's why i would not accept a swastika or kkk flag but i would be willing to tolerate something like [t]http://banksy.edublogs.org/files/2011/02/800px-Italian_Fascist_flag.svg-13ffp8f.png[/t] even though i also hate fascism[/QUOTE] thumb that my thing is, on a grand scale, there is no way to safely prevent people from having these opinions without crossing the boundaries of censorship and freedom the only way to combat it is through education and time that being said, this flag was a confederate flag on his car, and does not deem, specifically, that he is racist he could have the flag for some other bullshit reason he was raised to believe we have no place to punish him for that [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=PzOwNeD;40670445]I'm going to respond to this one rather than your whole mess of stuff you've said before because - spoiler - Students don't have actual access to the rights enumerated in the constitution (SCOTUS precedent).[/QUOTE] i know doesnt mean its right or justified [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;40670421]if you want anyone to take you seriously and actually have a conversation with you about this instead of just ignoring you for their own sake you should stop making such hyper-simplified comparisons and exaggerations like this. if you can't understand the difference between a nazi or confederate flag and the flag of the United States (or at least stop pretending that you dont for the sake of your argument) theres no reason for me or anyone else to try talking to you about this[/QUOTE] my argument is centered on one primary question how do you censor an opinion without breaching civil liberties if you can answer that then fine (in relation to the school issue, its a confederate flag on a car, and has no relation to genocide, and we cant assume the kid was racist. the confederacy supported slavery, but so did the union at the time for a good deal as well, most people (ignorantly) fly the flag because of rebellious attitudes towards big government)

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670446]my argument is centered on one primary question how do you censor an opinion without breaching civil liberties if you can answer that then fine (in relation to the school issue, its a confederate flag on a car, and has no relation to genocide, and we cant assume the kid was racist)[/QUOTE] A school is a place of learning, not a forum for expressing political opinions without reproach, if a student's activities cause a disruption in the classroom, then the student should be expected to either comply with requests to cease the disruptive activity or expect punishment. It's not like he asked for permission or got any clearance ahead of time, he decided to do it without permission from the school and therefore he doesn't have the ability to expect that his "speech" will not be "censored". If he, say, had an explicit point he was trying to make and had a political motivation that he clearly explained and did it off of school property then if he was suspended that would be wholly inappropriate, but that was not the situation that occurred.

how do i thumb it?

if you wanna be a racist/fascist fuckwit then do it outside of school grounds. you have no right to preach ANY ideology at a place of learning let alone one as despicable as the CSA's

[QUOTE=PzOwNeD;40670511]A school is a place of learning, not a forum for expressing political opinions without reproach, if a student's activities cause a disruption in the classroom, then the student should be expected to either comply with requests to cease the disruptive activity or expect punishment. It's not like he asked for permission or got any clearance ahead of time, he decided to do it without permission from the school and therefore he doesn't have the ability to expect that his "speech" will not be "censored". If he, say, had an explicit point he was trying to make and had a political motivation that he clearly explained and did it off of school property then if he was suspended that would be wholly inappropriate, but that was not the situation that occurred.[/QUOTE] i believe that if your going to approach it like that, any flag or representation of an ideology should be punishable by the school for disrupting the learning environment and causing political conflict if a school is seen as a place devoid of political affiliation, which i have no problem with if that is what's being presented, then every instance of political opinion and personal ideology toward law and government should be deemed inappropriate, no matter what the subject matter

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670446]my argument is centered on one primary question how do you censor an opinion without breaching civil liberties if you can answer that then fine (in relation to the school issue, its a confederate flag on a car, and has no relation to genocide, and we cant assume the kid was racist. the confederacy supported slavery, but so did the union at the time for a good deal as well, most people (ignorantly) fly the flag because of rebellious attitudes towards big government)[/QUOTE] "freedom of speech" isn't a catchall and it isn't without exception. you can't shout fire in a crowded theatre, you can't threaten someone. for the same reasons, schools have a limited scope of censorship to ensure (within reason) that the school is a safe environment for students. the line we draw is arbitrary but its one that needs to be drawn. when people apply the slippery slope argument to small incidents like these and try to purport it as a stepping stone to some orwellian dystopia in which everyone has to smile at all times and people who complain about the government are shot in the temple its obnoxious and dishonest. america draws arbitrary lines regarding civil liberties and rights all the time, because you [I]have to[/I]. arbitrary lines are scary but entirely necessary in running a coherent modern society. instead of worrying about what might happen when we draw the line in a dangerous spot, wait until people are actually talking about it and its a real issue and then voice your concerns. if the idea of banning a confederate flag is unacceptable to you, complain about that, but don't bother playing devils advocate and constructing nonsensical hypotheticals like "what if we banned american flags??" just to make a point of whats possible

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40670515]how do i thumb it?[/QUOTE] [t]s [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;40670523]if you wanna be a racist/fascist fuckwit then do it outside of school grounds. you have no right to preach ANY ideology at a place of learning let alone one as despicable as the CSA's[/QUOTE] agreed if thats the case flying any political flag should be punishable in this scenario if it is to prevent conflict in a place of learning but not simply because of the content of the flag itself [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;40670549]"freedom of speech" isn't a catchall and it isn't without exception. you can't shout fire in a crowded theatre, you can't threaten someone. for the same reasons, schools have a limited scope of censorship to ensure (within reason) that the school is a safe environment for students. the line we draw is arbitrary but its one that needs to be drawn. when people apply the slippery slope argument to small incidents like these and try to purport it as a stepping stone to some orwellian dystopia in which everyone has to smile at all times and people who complain about the government are shot in the temple its obnoxious and dishonest. america draws arbitrary lines regarding civil liberties and rights all the time, because you [I]have to[/I]. arbitrary lines are scary but entirely necessary in running a coherent modern society. instead of worrying about what might happen when we draw the line in a dangerous spot, wait until people are actually talking about it and its a real issue and then voice your concerns. if the idea of banning a confederate flag is unacceptable to you, complain about that, but don't bother playing devils advocate and constructing nonsensical hypotheticals like "what if we banned american flags??" just to make a point of whats possible[/QUOTE] see my opinion about school specifically in the posts above my other opinions were more in regards to general censorship that being said, current FoS laws are in place to prevent direct harm to others, having an ideology doesnt necessarily directly harm another person thats why the kkk, neonazies, and westoboro are still legal school is one thing, and i agree that ALL political opinion should be deemed inappropriate in a learning environment if that is the case

I think a society that cant handle a couple of flags, no matter what they might sympolize. Has some sort of problem.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;40670317]Sure. My flagpole has an Imperial German war jack flying from it right now. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1892-1903.svg/500px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1892-1903.svg.png[/img][/QUOTE] A lot of people seem to have Reichskriegsflagges. [url=http://imgkk.com/i/q7of.png]Glad i'm not the only one.[/url]

-snip automerge-

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670558]agreed if thats the case flying any political flag should be punishable in this scenario if it is to prevent conflict in a place of learning but not simply because of the content of the flag itself [/QUOTE] i'm going to have to say content does/should play a part, because i mean, say someone flies the NZ flag on their car, who the fuck cares? nobody, but thats because the NZ flag doesn't represent what the CSA flag does, which is a government that believes that blacks are inherently inferior to whites, and that their natural state is one of slavery. this is a disgusting AND harmful ideology to preach and to exacerbate. seriously, not all ideologies and political parties are equal, certainly not ones that preach hatred, intolerance and slavery

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670558]see my opinion about school specifically in the posts above my other opinions were more in regards to general censorship that being said, current FoS laws are in place to prevent direct harm to others, having an ideology doesnt necessarily directly harm another person thats why the kkk, neonazies, and westoboro are still legal school is one thing, and i agree that ALL political opinion should be deemed inappropriate in a learning environment if that is the case[/QUOTE] w/e i disagree with the idea that all political opinion needs to be kept private in school and i think you should be less worried about the slippery slope and arbitrary lines drawn in closed environments like a school but i get where you're coming from and i think banning all political expression in school is at least a reasonable stance to have [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] at least, more reasonable than just "let him do whatever he wants"

there is also a difference between flying a political flag(fascist flag, nazi flag, kkk flag, democrat flag, etc.) and flying a national flag. you could argue that flying a chinese flag represents slave labor and oppression, but you could also make a strong argument that it is just pride of someone's perceived homeland. that's why i'm sorta iffy about the csa flag specifically. on one hand, it represents something vile. on the other, it simply represents a nationality and pride in a certain homeland.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40670655]i'm going to have to say content does/should play a part, because i mean, say someone flies the NZ flag on their car, who the fuck cares? nobody, but thats because the NZ flag doesn't represent what the CSA flag does, which is a government that believes that blacks are inherently inferior to whites, and that their natural state is one of slavery. this is a disgusting AND harmful ideology to preach and to exacerbate. seriously, not all ideologies and political parties are equal, certainly not ones that preach hatred, intolerance and slavery[/QUOTE] again though, how do we deal with that situation without breaching a person's civil liberties to political opinion? assuming this isnt a school environment of course (which i believe should be blind to all personal political ideologies and prevent them from being brought up outside of a classroom specifically denoted for it, simply because it would disrupt the learning environment. things can get heated even between individuals who arent polar opposites)

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670705]again though, how do we deal with that situation without breaching a person's civil liberties to political opinion? assuming this isnt a school environment of course (which i believe should be blind to all personal political ideologies and prevent them from being brought up outside of a classroom specifically denoted for it, simply because it would disrupt the learning environment. things can get heated even between individuals who arent polar opposites)[/QUOTE] consider it a facet of decency laws maybe? it's indecent to run around naked regardless of if that's your political opinion that you should be naked all the time or if you think you have a civil liberty to be naked. i certainly consider it indecent to fly the flag of organizations that have done nothing but bring evil and horror to the world (nazi's, CSA, KKK)

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40670699]there is also a difference between flying a political flag(fascist flag, nazi flag, kkk flag, democrat flag, etc.) and flying a national flag. you could argue that flying a chinese flag represents slave labor and oppression, but you could also make a strong argument that it is just pride of someone's perceived homeland. that's why i'm sorta iffy about the csa flag specifically. on one hand, it represents something vile. on the other, it simply represents a nationality and pride in a certain homeland.[/QUOTE] its impossible to know for sure what some flags symbolize to certain people, hence why we cant really assume anything its best to play it safe and prevent all political symbolism than to simply ban a flag outright for what it could symbolize [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;40670724]consider it a facet of decency laws maybe? it's indecent to run around naked regardless of if that's your political opinion that you should be naked all the time or if you think you have a civil liberty to be naked. i certainly consider it indecent to fly the flag of organizations that have done nothing but bring evil and horror to the world (nazi's, CSA, KKK)[/QUOTE] who gets to deteremine what is and isnt decent and what are the criteria? if it was placed on a state vote, many deep south states would deem gay pride flags indecent and confederate flags A-okay its dangerous to give anyone the right to decide whats right and wrong for the people to believe in

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670725]its impossible to know for sure what some flags symbolize to certain people, hence why we cant really assume anything its best to play it safe and prevent all political symbolism than to simply ban a flag outright for what it could symbolize[/QUOTE] yes you can assume with political flags. political parties and organizations stand for key ideas. if you don't like those ideas you would not fly the flag. a national flag can represent many things to many people because nations represent many things to many people. the csa is tough because it is both a political flag and a national flag.

you are free to personally find it indecent, but that doesnt mean we should prevent that flag from being flown as i said, some people find things offensive that we may not there is really no way to establish right and wrong on a legal level beyond what events actually have a real victim

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40670655]i'm going to have to say content does/should play a part, because i mean, say someone flies the NZ flag on their car, who the fuck cares? nobody, but thats because the NZ flag doesn't represent what the CSA flag does, which is a government that believes that blacks are inherently inferior to whites, and that their natural state is one of slavery. this is a disgusting AND harmful ideology to preach and to exacerbate. seriously, not all ideologies and political parties are equal, certainly not ones that preach hatred, intolerance and slavery[/QUOTE] Flying the United States flag sponsors the act of terrorism, genocide of the natives of North America, and rapid supports of Anti-Communist(and the likes) attitudes on an almost ignorant attitude. Oh. Within regards of the Civil War... The first tests of Total War on American soil, resulting in the mass-destruction of several cities in the southern part of the America. If a piece of fabric is to tell the story of a nations destructive or otherwise spiteful nature, we might as well stop associating ourselves to anyform of culture or social imagery that may exist of any artificial borders.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40670748]yes you can assume with political flags. political parties and organizations stand for key ideas. if you don't like those ideas you would not fly the flag. a national flag can represent many things to many people because nations represent many things to many people. the csa is tough because it is both a political flag and a national flag.[/QUOTE] the nazi flag was germany's national flag though

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40670549]"freedom of speech" isn't a catchall and it isn't without exception. you can't shout fire in a crowded theatre, you can't threaten someone. for the same reasons, schools have a limited scope of censorship to ensure (within reason) that the school is a safe environment for students. the line we draw is arbitrary but its one that needs to be drawn. when people apply the slippery slope argument to small incidents like these and try to purport it as a stepping stone to some orwellian dystopia in which everyone has to smile at all times and people who complain about the government are shot in the temple its obnoxious and dishonest. america draws arbitrary lines regarding civil liberties and rights all the time, because you [I]have to[/I]. arbitrary lines are scary but entirely necessary in running a coherent modern society. instead of worrying about what might happen when we draw the line in a dangerous spot, wait until people are actually talking about it and its a real issue and then voice your concerns. if the idea of banning a confederate flag is unacceptable to you, complain about that, but don't bother playing devils advocate and constructing nonsensical hypotheticals like "what if we banned american flags??" just to make a point of whats possible[/QUOTE] Why does everyone bring up "fire in a theater", or the "bomb on an airplane"? Freedom of speech is for protecting opinions and ideologies. Yelling "fire" or "bomb" is not an ideology and doesn't need protected. It's also illegal for a legitimate reason, it causes mass panic, a flag does not. All flying on offensive flag would do is get people pissed at you and that would be it. Threatening people is illegal because that's actual concrete proof that they want to cause damage. You can't just assume that someone who flies these flags take up their ideologies, for instance, I like to collect Soviet imagery, badges, and other stuff. I find what the soviets did to be atrocious, but I like the look of it all.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670753]you are free to personally find it indecent, but that doesnt mean we should prevent that flag from being flown as i said, some people find things offensive that we may not there is really no way to establish right and wrong on a legal level beyond what events actually have a real victim[/QUOTE] i'm not talking about establishing any right and wrong on a legal level. i already said i'm skeptical(actually probably cynical) about government censorship.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;40670764]Flying the United States flag sponsors the act of terrorism, genocide of the natives of North America, and rapid supports of Anti-Communist(and the likes) attitudes on an almost ignorant attitude. Oh. Within regards of the Civil War... The first tests of Total War on American soil, resulting in the mass-destruction of several cities in the southern part of the America. If a piece of fabric is to tell the story of a nations destructive or otherwise spiteful nature, we might as well stop associating ourselves to anyform of culture or social imagery that may exist of any artificial borders.[/QUOTE] except that's not what the USA stands for, it's just what it does. the CSA literally stood for the belief that blacks are inferior to whites and that slavery is their natural state of being. see the difference here?

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40670772]the nazi flag was germany's national flag though[/QUOTE] but it isn't a national flag any longer. nobody waves the swastika because they are proud of being german. they show the swastika because they are nazis or neo-nazis. if someone was trying to show their german pride they would wave the tricolors or maybe even the phoenix, both symbols of germany that are much older than nazism and still relevant today.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40670815]except that's not what the USA stands for, it's just what it does. the CSA literally stood for the belief that blacks are inferior to whites and that slavery is their natural state of being. see the difference here?[/QUOTE] What you do in a certain period of time, is what you did stand for. I understand what you mean, but I'm just pointing out that for some it's a completely different story.