Flying Confederate flag ends in suspension for high school junior - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40671652]yes they did that, at a time when everyone was doing that (not that this justifies it at all) but that was just an act of a very old nation-state, the CSA was LITERALLY FOUNDED to protect the rights of slavers and to continue the subjugation of blacks THIS IS WHY THE CSA IS BAD AND FLYING THEIR FLAG MAKES YOU EITHER A DUMBASS OR A RACIST DUMBASS[/QUOTE] So just because England and every other nation did it before hand and the C.S.A. came late, the C.S.A. is worse. Your logic is impeccable.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40671652]yes they did that, at a time when everyone was doing that (not that this justifies it at all) but that was just an act of a very old nation-state, the CSA was LITERALLY FOUNDED to protect the rights of slavers and to continue the subjugation of blacks THIS IS WHY THE CSA IS BAD AND FLYING THEIR FLAG MAKES YOU EITHER A DUMBASS OR A RACIST DUMBASS [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] what they did and what they stood for are different things. although i do consider the british empire fucked[/QUOTE] oh yeah i can totally see your point. IDK nowadays the CSA flag is less of "yee haw kill niggaz" and more of "yeah this is the south flag cool" but i understand exactly what you mean [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;40671648]good enough for you loriborn? [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] because you guys are saying he wasn't an abolitionist when he clearly was![/QUOTE] you have literally no argument to make so you decide to take my post without context and use it against me cause it's not like I've said repeatedly that he was an abolitionist on a personal level, but not a political level, because personal opinions and politics dont mix

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40671668]again feel free to disagree with their personal ideologies, but there is no point in merely insulting the people who wave the confederate flag doesnt really have anything to do with anything other than your personal opinion on a select group of people[/QUOTE] eh, i don't see anything wrong with insulting people who choose to wave a flag dedicated to racism and slavery, either they support that which makes them racist assholes, or they don't understand that's what it meas, which makes them dumb assholes [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=snapshot32;40671672]So just because England and every other nation did it before hand and the C.S.A. came late, the C.S.A. is worse. Your logic is impeccable.[/QUOTE] no the CSA is worse because that was literally all they were about

[QUOTE] The Confederate flag flying above the Statehouse flies in a vacuum. Its meaning and purpose are not defined by law. Because of this, any group can give the flag any meaning it chooses. The Klan can misuse it as a racist tool, as it has, and others can misuse it solely as a symbol for racism, as they have.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;40671674] you have literally no argument to make so you decide to take my post without context and use it against me cause it's not like I've said repeatedly that he was an abolitionist on a personal level, but not a political level, because personal opinions and politics dont mix[/QUOTE] he supported legislation that would eventually end slavery how is that not abolitionist

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40671767]no the CSA is worse because that was literally all they were about[/QUOTE] the csa's economy focus and relied on slavery the british empire's economy focus and relied on slavery the american economy focused and relied on slavery no matter which way you twist it, all three were in love with slavery and oppressing minorities. americans had native americans and blacks and the poor and immigrants and women british had native americans and blacks and the poor and immigrants and women (and Indians, Africans, and other such colonies) csa had native americans and blacks and the poor and immigrants and women no matter which way you slice it all three nations were "about" slavery and oppression during the time period all of them were focused on slavery and imperialism and inequality, and all of them were just as bad as eachother

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40671767]no the CSA is worse because that was literally all they were about[/QUOTE] Alright, so I guess we could just ignore Britannia's massive hardon for colonization, also the Spanish mistreatment of the natives or Frances sugarcane colonies, because only the southern states and the C.S.A. were cool with slavery and were built on racism.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40671827]Alright, so I guess we could just ignore Britannia's massive hardon for colonization, also the Spanish mistreatment of the natives or Frances sugarcane colonies, because only the southern states and the C.S.A. were cool with slavery and were built on racism.[/QUOTE] no but there is a clear difference in a flag that has a nationality behind it, no matter how mixed it may be, and a flag that has a political ideology behind it. [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] you aren't understanding the difference between political/social symbology and national symbology.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671861]no but there is a clear difference in a flag that has a nationality behind it, no matter how mixed it may be, and a flag that has a political ideology behind it.[/QUOTE] a flag can symbolize anything you want it to

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40669970]especially this if theyre not harming anyone, we have no right to censor their opinions simply because they are offensive or intolerant or xenophobic everyone has a right to display their opinions, and as long as they're not lynching or stealing or slandering people, there is no reason to punish them simply for flying a flag on their own property[/QUOTE] It creates a hostile school environment

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40671870]a flag can symbolize anything you want it to[/QUOTE] not quite. does the kkk flag symbolize anything except white supremacy? does the nazi flag symbolize anything except "aryan" supremacy?

[QUOTE=prooboo;40671877]It creates a hostile school environment[/QUOTE] please read the thread we have already had this discussion

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671861]no but there is a clear difference in a flag that has a nationality behind it, no matter how mixed it may be, and a flag that has a political ideology behind it. [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] you aren't understanding the difference between political/social symbology and nationalist symbology.[/QUOTE] The C.S.A. wasn't an organization or a club, it was it's own country with it's own identity and it's own culture, if that doesn't qualify for nationalist symbolism then I don't know what else to tell you.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671884]not quite. does the kkk flag symbolize anything except white supremacy? does the nazi flag symbolize anything except "aryan" supremacy?[/QUOTE] im sure kkk members and neonazi's would go into intricate detail as to what their flag means to them

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671884]not quite. does the kkk flag symbolize anything except white supremacy? does the nazi flag symbolize anything except "aryan" supremacy?[/QUOTE] If you're going to bring up the Klan then I'd have you know that the organization had major political sway in the 30's with a few hundred thousand members, it could be argued that the Klan was as big a part of 30's American culture as Nazism was in the late 30's in Germany.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40671652]yes they did that, at a time when everyone was doing that (not that this justifies it at all) but that was just an act of a very old nation-state, the CSA was LITERALLY FOUNDED to protect the rights of slavers and to continue the subjugation of blacks THIS IS WHY THE CSA IS BAD AND FLYING THEIR FLAG MAKES YOU EITHER A DUMBASS OR A RACIST DUMBASS[/QUOTE] It probably isn't a confederate flag, it's probably a southern cross. You may say "same thing", but it really isn't. They don't even look exactly the same. The confederate flag had a big white space, like Mississipi's flag but without the stripes (Yes, Mississippi has a southern cross in its flag even today). More importantly however is the fact that the southern cross is not a flag, but a symbol that happens to appear on flags. Again, like a union jack. The common thread between everyone who has ever associated themselves with the symbol is that they felt some sort of connection to the south. One of it's users happened to be a reactionary pro-slavery government and they can arguably be held responsible for its widespread recognition, but similar things can be said about the swastika or the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces"]fasces[/URL].

I'm flying a Confederate flag under my American flag, and followed by a Union Jack. But I'm in Virginia, and a foreigner, so no one really cares around here.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40671891]The C.S.A. wasn't an organization or a club, it was it's own country with it's own identity and it's own culture, if that doesn't qualify for nationalist symbolism then I don't know what else to tell you.[/QUOTE] that's why my feelings are mixed about the csa flag. it is both a political and national symbol. [QUOTE=Loriborn;40671893]im sure kkk members and neonazi's would go into intricate detail as to what their flag means to them[/QUOTE] yea, intricate detail of an ideology of nationalism and racism. you wouldn't fly that flag unless you supported the ideals it symbolized just like how you wouldn't fly the red-and-black, circle-a, or black-flag unless you supported the ideals of anarchism.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671940]that's why my feelings are mixed about the csa flag. it is both a political and national symbol.[/QUOTE] Well, now days it has a meaning very specific and honored in the south, it represents southern pride and a unique cultural identity that the south has. To argue it's racist and the people that have one are racist is just ignorant.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40671966]Well, now days it has a meaning very specific and honored in the south, it represents southern pride and a unique cultural identity that the south has. To argue it's racist and the people that have one are racist is just ignorant.[/QUOTE] i never said that. however, symbolism is not just something on the part of the person providing the symbol. symbolism is meant to be interpreted and the confederate flag can be interpreted in different ways depending on the person viewing it. the confederate flag might be a symbol of southern pride/southern nationality, but it is also a symbol of racism because of what it conveys to other people.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671989]i never said that. however, symbolism is not just something on the part of the person providing the symbol. symbolism is meant to be interpreted and the confederate flag can be interpreted in different ways depending on the person viewing it. the confederate flag might be a symbol of southern pride/southern nationality, but it is also a symbol of racism because of what it conveys to other people.[/QUOTE] That could be portrayed with literally any nations flag.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40672025]That could be portrayed with literally any nations flag.[/QUOTE] not in the same way, or to the same degree. let's say i'm a proud russian. should i fly the soviet flag? it was a symbol of russia for a very long time. still, it conveys an ideology of oppression and genocide so i should probably pick a better flag, like maybe the russian tricolors? or if i'm a buddhist, should i fly a flag with a swastika even though it's a legit symbol in my religion? probably not because the audience will not see the buddhist symbolism, they will see nazi symbolism and my message won't be properly conveyed. you have to take into account what your chosen symbolism will convey to other people. that's why i said earlier that someone with german pride shouldn't wave the nazi flag even though it was technically an official flag of germany. it doesn't imply german pride, it implies nazism. [editline]17th May 2013[/editline] if i fly the american flag my audience will probably see "proud american", and although you might disagree with being being proud of being an american, it is not in itself going to necessarily convey a tolerance or acceptance of murder.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40671989]i never said that. however, symbolism is not just something on the part of the person providing the symbol. symbolism is meant to be interpreted and the confederate flag can be interpreted in different ways depending on the person viewing it. the confederate flag might be a symbol of southern pride/southern nationality, but it is also a symbol of racism because of what it conveys to other people.[/QUOTE] Why should it matter how anyone else aside from the person interprets it? Especially if anyone can interpret it in any number of ways? I VIEW CLOTHING TO BE AN OPPRESSIVE SYMBOL OF THE PATRIARCHY KEEPING WOMAN IN LINE! If all women could kindly remove their clothes it would be appreciated.

As, I've stated, nowadays it's viewed as a symbol of sate pride, if you look at this book you will see that 59% of Americans polled in 2000 viewed it as a symbol of southern pride. [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vsSlAzk2OoQC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=confederate+flag+poll&source=bl&ots=9d-zTetRjn&sig=ZoQKNsnjzygD8IXBJZuNqUObvro&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_JKVUfjZE8HG0QGI54DoDw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=confederate%20flag%20poll&f=false[/url] If you disagree, that's fine, I could care less. We just have opposing views I suppose.

I'm a resident of Michigan, and I actually was in a similar situation. A teacher was trying to confiscate a student's binder because it had a confederate flag on it. The kid was a proud dumbass and a redneck, but I wasn't having any of that shit. Speech is speech and while I didn't agree with what he was saying, he had every right to display it. So I argued to the teacher on his behalf and won when I threatened to take it to the principal, who was always quick to side with me because I've previously nearly brought legal action over my right to similar political speech. There is no legal justification for the removal of the flag and the school is in the wrong. There should be no argument as to whether he should have the ability to fly the flag. It's hardly used anymore in terms of the Confederacy, but mostly in terms of rednecks and only sometimes rebels.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40672102]As, I've stated, nowadays it's viewed as a symbol of sate pride, if you look at this book you will see that 59% of Americans polled in 2000 viewed it as a symbol of southern pride. [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vsSlAzk2OoQC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=confederate+flag+poll&source=bl&ots=9d-zTetRjn&sig=ZoQKNsnjzygD8IXBJZuNqUObvro&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_JKVUfjZE8HG0QGI54DoDw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=confederate%20flag%20poll&f=false[/url][/QUOTE] that means a little less than half the population won't see it that way. it means the symbolism in the flag is mixed and it probably isn't the best choice for symbolizing your idea. if you aren't able to convey the right message to the audience, then why use that symbol?

Every other truck at my old school had a massive confederate flag on the back, so glad I'm out of there.

There's still a state that has the Confederate flag [I]on its state flag[/I] and a second state that flies it with its state flag over its capitol. And then there's at least 2 other flags that purposefully incorporated designs of the Confederate flag into their state flags. It's a symbol of the region or culture now. Michigan, especially rural Michigan (and some cities, i.e. Burtucky/Burt, Ypsitucky/Ypsilanti) has a heavy neo-Confederate and redneck influence.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40672115]that means a little less than half the population won't see it that way. it means the symbolism in the flag is mixed and it probably isn't the best choice for symbolizing your idea. if you aren't able to convey the right message to the audience, then why use that symbol?[/QUOTE] In my mind and most others I'm not conveying a message of political or social support, but of a regional identity. But if you see it as another way then that's just your opinion.

[QUOTE=snapshot32;40672139]In my mind and most others I'm not conveying a message of political or social support, but of a regional identity. But if you see it as another way then that's just your opinion.[/QUOTE] but my opinion and the opinion of others does matter when making a message. if i just typed "afsaskj" and said that symbolizes an intricate ideology of liberty and social equality, you wouldn't understand it. you would think i'm crazy. even if those keystrokes did have a heavy meaning to me, it wouldn't be a wise choice to use it to display my ideology because no one else would catch the meaning. when making a statement it is important that other people understand what you are trying to convey. the confederate flag has a lot of mixed symbolism to it. i don't doubt that you might think it's perfectly fine and dandy, but to a lot of people it won't come across that way. so why make a message that is so ambiguous to describe something very important to you? it's probably a bad idea. especially since you will have to explain the meaning to half the people.