Mass Shotting at South Carolina Club Averted By CCW Holder - Polidicks

[QUOTE=camaroni;50635871]You posted that every country that has stricter laws have less issues with firearms. You didn't specify it then. Putting law abiding citizens on a registry won't curb any crimes nor will it make some individuals (like myself) feel more safe because it's not as if this list is transparent. I won't be able to know who owns firearms and frankly, I could care less if I did. They haven't committed a crime and should not be treated as a criminal. Let's not forget that in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the government stripped many citizens of their rights simply because they owned a firearm. They weren't criminals and had no legal precedence to do so. Because they are Swiss and I'm an American. Those laws work for that country. The geopolitics and history of conflicts in that region have shaped the country into what it is today. Likewise when we overthrew your sorry excuse for a government back in the 18th century, our founding fathers knew that the people needed to be able to do it again if need be. Even from itself. That's why the Bill of Rights exists and why I cannot compromise any further. There has been too much already and no noticeable difference has been made with these arbitrary laws. All these laws don't address the true issue of the problem: crime and poverty.[/QUOTE] I'm sensing a backpedal here.

[QUOTE=camaroni;50635871]You posted that every country that has stricter laws have less issues with firearms. You didn't specify it then. Putting law abiding citizens on a registry won't curb any crimes nor will it make some individuals (like myself) feel more safe because it's not as if this list is transparent. I won't be able to know who owns firearms and frankly, I could care less if I did. They haven't committed a crime and should not be treated as a criminal. Let's not forget that in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the government stripped many citizens of their rights simply because they owned a firearm. They weren't criminals and had no legal precedence to do so.[/QUOTE] Why is putting them on a list treating them as a criminal? It just make people more accountable for their firearms, as given by my example. And what are you referring to with Katrina?

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636050]Why is putting them on a list treating them as a criminal? It just make people more accountable for their firearms, as given by my example. And what are you referring to with Katrina?[/QUOTE] After Katrina, New Orleans police went door to door confiscating firearms. Only recently did they start returning them, but by now, the record of whose was whose is gone and they have all rusted and deteriorated. If they had a registry, they would have been much more precise in this abuse.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50635745] If you said it works well for Switzerland, then why not adopt Swiss laws? They have lower gun crime and you said their laws work, so by extension it should work in America yes?[/QUOTE] Because the issue is with poverty and crime, not guns themselves. Adopting swiss gun laws won't prevent crime and poverty in the US.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50636172]Because the issue is with poverty and crime, not guns themselves. Adopting swiss gun laws won't prevent crime and poverty in the US.[/QUOTE] Right, but its disingenuous of people to claim Swiss gun laws are good and a model to follow before suddenly backpedalling when told what their gun legislation actually is.

one of god knows how many cases. this proves nothing

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50636156]After Katrina, New Orleans police went door to door confiscating firearms. Only recently did they start returning them, but by now, the record of whose was whose is gone and they have all rusted and deteriorated. If they had a registry, they would have been much more precise in this abuse.[/QUOTE] After reading about it it looks like that was the city's decision and in response to the spike in crime after the storm. Katrina was a giant fuck up in so many ways though so I'm not surprised it happened. On a side note I find it interesting how they were able to confiscate 1000 guns without any armed rebellion like everyone talks about.

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636264]After reading about it it looks like that was the city's decision and in response to the spike in crime after the storm. Katrina was a giant fuck up in so many ways though so I'm not surprised it happened. On a side note I find it interesting how they were able to confiscate 1000 guns without any armed rebellion like everyone talks about.[/QUOTE] It's almost as if most of the smart people evacuated. And those who stayed were still arrested.

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50633485]It's almost like every country with stricter guns laws than the US has less gun problems. Also scenario regarding gun registration: Say I have a clean record and I purchase a gun, or several guns over a period of time. One day I decide to commit some kind of felony with one of my firearms. I get arrested, they confiscate the firearm, and now buying guns legally is probably a no go because of the criminal record. Do the police proceed to search for further weapons I may own? And if they're well hidden, couldn't I just lie about it? If a registry was mandatory then they would be aware of what you owned and could force you to turn them in or face additional charges. Am I wrong is that not a valid reason to have a registry? And I feel like this wouldn't exactly be an uncommon situation for criminals...[/QUOTE] See, the problem is they can claim that the weapons mysteriously dissapeared in a "boating accident" and it would take some time to get a warrant to get into their hous- oh wait, this is the Canadian who was all "remove the second amendment" [editline]3rd July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636264]After reading about it it looks like that was the city's decision and in response to the spike in crime after the storm. Katrina was a giant fuck up in so many ways though so I'm not surprised it happened. On a side note I find it interesting how they were able to confiscate 1000 guns without any armed rebellion like everyone talks about.[/QUOTE] Because everyone who was not old, disabled, or had other plans evac'd ASAP, and this rebellion would be based on a dissolution of gun rights (bye bye secco amendito)and making firearm owners criminals

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50636221]Right, but its disingenuous of people to claim Swiss gun laws are good and a model to follow before suddenly backpedalling when told what their gun legislation actually is.[/QUOTE] It's only in response to dumbfucks who thing curbing gun ownership will curb crime somehow.

Hey Scorp, weren't you anti-gun at some point? I thought I argued with you before on the matter.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50636665]Hey Scorp, weren't you anti-gun at some point? I thought I argued with you at some point on the matter.[/QUOTE] I've never been anti-gun, however I have argued against some dumb pro-gun arguments that just don't make sense. I may come off as anti-gun at times because of that, but I assure you I'm only attacking weak arguments and not the belief itself.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50636734]I've never been anti-gun, however I have argued against some dumb pro-gun arguments that just don't make sense. I may come off as anti-gun at times because of that, but I assure you I'm only attacking weak arguments and not the belief itself.[/QUOTE] So you're like the Thomas Aquinas of gun theology?

Gonna need a bit more clarity on that :v:

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50635910]can you explain why their laws wouldn't work in america, considering that both countries have strong traditions of pluralism, democracy, decentralized government, independent-minded peoples, along with multiple cultures living together in addition to having loads of immigrants while being renowned for the freedom and material prosperity of its inhabitants? you explicitly said that switzerlands gun laws work if they work, why not actually introduce them in america? to be honest i think the swiss have more freedom than the americans when it comes to guns, considering even their existing legislation[/QUOTE] We have laws in place that prosecute criminals for breaking firearm laws. The problem comes when the prosecutors don't do their part and uphold the law. Individuals with large criminal records usually have some form of firearm related charge brought against them (assault, armed robbery) yet very few things are done to bring these people to trial for these offenses. [QUOTE=daschnek;50636018]I'm sensing a backpedal here.[/QUOTE] Explain. [QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636050]Why is putting them on a list treating them as a criminal? It just make people more accountable for their firearms, as given by my example. And what are you referring to with Katrina?[/QUOTE] As Grenadiac pointed out, it makes it easier for a government entity to confiscate arms whenever it feels like it. How do you think certain political regimes came to power? Because they confiscated the arms of citizens.

[QUOTE=camaroni;50636895]We have laws in place that prosecute criminals for breaking firearm laws. The problem comes when the prosecutors don't do their part and uphold the law. Individuals with large criminal records usually have some form of firearm related charge brought against them (assault, armed robbery) yet very few things are done to bring these people to trial for these offenses. Explain. As Grenadiac pointed out, it makes it easier for a government entity to confiscate arms whenever it feels like it. How do you think certain political regimes came to power? Because they confiscated the arms of citizens.[/QUOTE] Why are americans so paranoid about the government? It's like people genuinely think if all the guns were confiscated they'd just start rounding you up by the truck load and sending you to concentration camps.

[QUOTE=camaroni;50636895]We have laws in place that prosecute criminals for breaking firearm laws. The problem comes when the prosecutors don't do their part and uphold the law. Individuals with large criminal records usually have some form of firearm related charge brought against them (assault, armed robbery) yet very few things are done to bring these people to trial for these offenses.[/QUOTE] This still doesn't explain why the USA can't have Swiss firearm laws. From reading the Swiss laws on firearms they make sense and I don't see why they wouldn't work in America.

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636969]Why are americans so paranoid about the government? It's like people genuinely think if all the guns were confiscated they'd just start rounding you up by the truck load and sending you to concentration camps.[/QUOTE] Why shouldn't we be skeptical of the government? Is it not better to distrust them and not get fucked over than to blindly trust them and get fucked over? And at least if you distrusted them and [I]did[/I] get fucked over, you'd be able to say told you so. The issue is that if the government begins snatching guns, it's demonstrated that it no longer has qualms violating the Constitution outright. If they don't respect the second, why should they respect the rest of them? With regards to registries, there is literally no evidence that they do anything to reduce crime and multiple precedents in the US where they were used to easily find and confiscate firearms, so why should we trust "it'll be different this time guys really" when that's what they said in NYC?

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636969]Why are americans so paranoid about the government? It's like people genuinely think if all the guns were confiscated they'd just start rounding you up by the truck load and sending you to concentration camps.[/QUOTE] You want to us to trust our government when Donald Trump has a chance to become the president? :v:

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50637000]Why shouldn't we be skeptical of the government?[/QUOTE] He said paranoid. Not sceptical. Being sceptical of the American government is something like calling a politician out for raising taxes that do not actually provide any benefit or criticising backwards social policy. Paranoid is believing its engaging in a vast orchestrated conspiracy to abolish firearms legislation, remove them from the population, and then suddenly commit itself to brutal repression of the populace.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50637016]He said paranoid. Not sceptical. Being sceptical of the American government is something like calling a politician out for raising taxes that do not actually provide any benefit or criticising backwards social policy. Paranoid is believing its engaging in a vast orchestrated conspiracy to abolish firearms legislation, remove them from the population, and then suddenly commit itself to brutal repression of the populace.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone believes there's a conspiracy to abolish the ownership of firearms but we're all pretty damn skeptical of politicians honestly thinking turning law-abiding citizens into criminals for the sake of owning them is a good idea will happen. I'm sure these politicians are extremely well intentioned, but they're also incredibly stupid. [editline]2nd July 2016[/editline] The use of hyberboles in both pro- and anti- gun sides is pretty extreme in these threads. Anti guns think the other side are conspiracy nuts ready to fire on any kind of government official walking up to their door while pro guns think the other side want to demonize them all as potential serial killers and lock them up.

[QUOTE=No_Excuses;50636969]Why are americans so paranoid about the government? It's like people genuinely think if all the guns were confiscated they'd just start rounding you up by the truck load and sending you to concentration camps.[/QUOTE] Perhaps because our government has committed numerous atrocities on its own people.

[QUOTE=geel9;50637038]Perhaps because our government has committed numerous atrocities on its own people.[/QUOTE] Not in the past 50 or so years that I can recall. Unless you're using "atrocity" extremely broadly to mean things like the war on drugs.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50637032][b]I don't think anyone believes there's a conspiracy to abolish the ownership of firearms[/b] but we're all pretty damn skeptical of politicians honestly thinking turning law-abiding citizens into criminals for the sake of owning them is a good idea will happen. I'm sure these politicians are extremely well intentioned, but they're also incredibly stupid.[/QUOTE] i don't know if you've been in SH long enough or if the fact its past bedtime means i'm asleep and i'm dreaming having arguments on the internet. but yeah i've seen loads of people on here before trying to make the argument that there exists a widespread coordinated effort to eliminate firearms from american society - rather than just a handful of stupid politicians who for the most part have been failures [QUOTE=Grenadiac;50637061]Many, many pro-ban politicians have changed their tactics and now intend to regulate them out of existence by wrapping the whole thing up in so much red tape as to make it impossible to enjoy the hobby. California, NYC, and Chicago are good examples of this trend.[/QUOTE] ye prime example here of what i'm talking about the problem of the gun politics has become so cancerous that it's ultimately going to end extremely badly. fear drives both sides in it, and that fear has multiplied in on itself to the point that firearms have become an integral part of ones life rather than just being a mundane chunk of metal that the swiss treat it as

Many, many pro-ban politicians have changed their tactics and now intend to regulate them out of existence by wrapping the whole thing up in so much red tape as to make it impossible to enjoy the hobby. California, NYC, and Chicago are good examples of this trend. Many of those politicians are also in favor of more nanny state bullshit. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'm not expecting a genocide or anything but it will suck major dick.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50637060]i don't know if you've been in SH long enough or if the fact its past bedtime means i'm asleep and i'm dreaming having arguments on the internet. but yeah i've seen loads of people on here before trying to make the argument that there exists a widespread coordinated effort to eliminate firearms from american society - rather than just a handful of stupid politicians who for the most part have been failures [/QUOTE] Maybe it's a matter of definition. To me, "conspiracy" implies a nefarious, illegal end. Yes, I believe there are a group of politicians working together to slowly prevent gun ownership and end current gun ownership, whether it be loosely or closely in different cases. The definition of that is a "a political policy", which political parties utilize to achieve an end. It's as if left-leaning people called Republicans across the country trying to end abortion rights as a "conspiracy".

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50637090]Maybe it's a matter of definition. To me, "conspiracy" implies a nefarious, illegal end. Yes, I believe there are a group of politicians working together to slowly prevent gun ownership and end current gun ownership, whether it be loosely or closely in different cases. The definition of that is a "a political policy", which political parties utilize to achieve an end. It's as if left-leaning people called Republicans across the country trying to end abortion rights as a "conspiracy".[/QUOTE] well yeah obviously, but unlike the republicans these guys have virtually almost no power or influence in politics. most of the laws they pass barely chip away at the edges and they struggle to even renew laws like "Assault weapons ban". a lot of gun control legislation was also struck down by the courts over the years and concealed/open carry is extremely common now. the only reason that guns are "under threat" is because without the narrative of gun rights under attack then organisations like the NRA would quickly lose their former influence in politics (along with donations). not to mention that if the arms industry lost the ability to market guns to people (for protection or what have you), then they would suddenly lose a huge market. fear sells well, and fear of losing your freedom and safety together is enough to terrify people into shelling out big bucks. there are vastly more firearms forums, organisations, enthusiasts, websites, clubs, etc with far more resources and the ability to coordinate and lobby much more effectively than the gun control groups ever can. i mean just look at facepunch - where's the gun control thread? the gun community is extremely organised and has a strong ideology around which they build themselves. there's really no equivalent for the other side because gun legislation isn't the most important thing to them - they spend a lot of time on other topics too americans have a right to be sceptical of their government, but they should be sceptical of large organisations in general - especially the ones that are involved with business interests in the arms industry

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50637051]Not in the past 50 or so years that I can recall. Unless you're using "atrocity" extremely broadly to mean things like the war on drugs.[/QUOTE] Is force-feeding numerous people LSD for 6 months without their knowledge, in pursuit of [b]mind control[/b] not what you would call an "atrocity"?

[QUOTE=geel9;50637128]Is force-feeding numerous people LSD for 6 months without their knowledge, in pursuit of [b]mind control[/b] not what you would call an "atrocity"?[/QUOTE] :quotes: [editline]3rd July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;50637117]well yeah obviously, but unlike the republicans these guys have virtually almost no power or influence in politics. most of the laws they pass barely chip away at the edges and they struggle to even renew laws like "Assault weapons ban". a lot of gun control legislation was also struck down by the courts over the years and concealed/open carry is extremely common now. the only reason that guns are "under threat" is because without the narrative of gun rights under attack then organisations like the NRA would quickly lose their former influence in politics (along with donations). not to mention that if the arms industry lost the ability to market guns to people (for protection or what have you), then they would suddenly lose a huge market. fear sells well, and fear of losing your freedom and safety together is enough to terrify people into shelling out big bucks. there are vastly more firearms forums, organisations, enthusiasts, websites, clubs, etc with far more resources and the ability to coordinate and lobby much more effectively than the gun control groups ever can. i mean just look at facepunch - where's the gun control thread? the gun community is extremely organised and has a strong ideology around which they build themselves. there's really no equivalent for the other side because gun legislation isn't the most important thing to them - they spend a lot of time on other topics too americans have a right to be sceptical of their government, but they should be sceptical of large organisations in general - especially the ones that are involved with business interests in the arms industry[/QUOTE] They only get to chip at the edges because that's all the pro-gun side will let them do. The moment we relax is the moment they take more than a chip away.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50637225]:quotes: [/QUOTE] Do you not believe that happened? [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MK-ULTRA]Because it did.[/url]