• Juncker loses temper with ‘irrelevant’ Greek voters
    101 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Latex;48140944]Yes. That will totally show people how great the EU is and won't provide tons of ammo for EUsceptic movements. Just Brilliant[/QUOTE] Well then how do you think this whole issue should be resolved? The greek state is indebted to the european union. Are we just going to seize their assets and force a vote for a new government? There is no ethical way of handling this. Letting them go without paying back what they owe would be showing weakness on the rest of Europes behalf, this is just as much ammo for the EUskeptics as the other. Its either a passive or aggressive solution, either way its going to show one of the many issues with the european union.
Greece has basically been bled dry. Austerity almost never works. Everyone knows Greece cannot possibly pay off its debt, but Germany wants to make some kind of sick point by not letting Greece off the hook. Should we open the betting market by how much more life Greece can lose under German authority? It's lost 25% of its GDP so far. How much worse can it get? 40%, 50? [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] Also: stop blaming the Greek people for this. Indirectly quoting Krugman here, but the Greek people have suffered for their decade past Government's excesses and sins many times over. Nobody deserves this.
[QUOTE=person11;48141208]Greece has basically been bled dry. Austerity almost never works. Everyone knows Greece cannot possibly pay off its debt, but Germany wants to make some kind of sick point by not letting Greece off the hook. Should we open the betting market by how much more life Greece can lose under German authority? It's lost 25% of its GDP so far. How much worse can it get? 40%, 50? [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] Also: stop blaming the Greek people for this. Indirectly quoting Krugman here, but the Greek people have suffered for their decade past Government's excesses and sins many times over. Nobody deserves this.[/QUOTE] It's more the government that bothers me than the people. Always liked the greek culture, especially the food and music. Sanctioning trade, but not sanctioning migration would mean that they can at least escape their eternally shit government.
Syriza may be crazy Marxists but they're still better than the corrupt fucks in PASOK and New Democracy.
[QUOTE=NeverGoWest;48141236]It's more the government that bothers me than the people. Always liked the greek culture, especially the food and music. Sanctioning trade, but not sanctioning migration would mean that they can at least escape their eternally shit government.[/QUOTE] Don't forget who voted the government in.
You know what? Tomorrow I'm going to ask a guy for an absurd amount of money and promise to pay up in some years When he'll came asking for his money, I'll held a vote between my friends and parents to see what they say about it and utterly refuse to pay him if the vote'll end up in my favor
[QUOTE=Swebonny;48140903]I loved the picture of the voters dancing and celebrating on the streets. It's as if the idiots thought they saved their own country.[/QUOTE] They're just happy that the dick stuck up their collective asses is now Greek instead of German.
[QUOTE=person11;48141208]Greece has basically been bled dry. Austerity almost never works. Everyone knows Greece cannot possibly pay off its debt, but Germany wants to make some kind of sick point by not letting Greece off the hook. Should we open the betting market by how much more life Greece can lose under German authority? It's lost 25% of its GDP so far. How much worse can it get? 40%, 50? [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] Also: stop blaming the Greek people for this. Indirectly quoting Krugman here, but the Greek people have suffered for their decade past Government's excesses and sins many times over. Nobody deserves this.[/QUOTE] THIS. Don't get FPs obsession with wanting them to pay up - why on earth should the greek people suffer even more for debt they have no involvement in creating whatsoever? Also Germany is pretty fucking quick to forget it was let off a fucking LOAD of debt after WW2... and the people voted that govt in, so why don't they have to pay?
[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141299]You know what? Tomorrow I'm going to ask a guy for an absurd amount of money and promise to pay up in some years When he'll came asking for his money, I'll held a vote between my friends and parents to see what they say about it and utterly refuse to pay him if the vote'll end up in my favor[/QUOTE] Stop treating countries like people.
germany was in the same state as greece and the allies forgave that debt. it seems germany has decided to decided to terrorize europe a third time, but with money instead of the military.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141306]Stop treating countries like people.[/QUOTE] Stop spouting slogans and wisecracks and start write down arguments, if you have any
[QUOTE=fragger0;48141302]THIS. Don't get FPs obsession with wanting them to pay up - why on earth should the greek people suffer even more for debt they have no involvement in creating whatsoever? [/QUOTE] I wouldn't call the Greek people completely innocent. It's no secret that tax evasion is rampant in Greece. Granted, the government hasn't made it difficult to do it. But that is no excuse. You can't put into system not to pay your taxes and then be surprised when your social welfare state collapses.
[QUOTE=Matthew7434;48141323]germany was in the same state as greece and the allies forgave that debt. it seems germany has decided to decided to terrorize europe a third time, but with money instead of the military.[/QUOTE] Don't try to talk about this please, you don't know enough about the subject. The EU is benevolent. It is for mutual prosperity. Some stuff doesn't work and whats happening to greece is unfortunate but either side (EU and Greece) has no easy option in this. The EU also needs to consider confidence of its other member states, if they mess up it will give the euroskeptics ammo to use and might cause some serious issues. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=demoguy08;48141340]I wouldn't call the Greek people completely innocent. It's no secret that tax evasion is rampant in Greece. Granted, the government hasn't made it difficult to do it. But that is no excuse. You can't put into system not to pay your taxes and then be surprised when your social welfare state collapses.[/QUOTE] Tax evasion is rampant everywhere. In the Uk we have knighted people (important people who the queen personally knights, they get the title sir) who are known tax evaders, nothing happens to them. We have politicans who admit to tax evasion (Farage), Starbucks has evaded millions in tax. Its ridiculous. I agree about the Greeks having a messed up economy though. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] Learned that Kelloggs, morrisons and the daily mail are all tax avoiders. It's a fucking joke. The tax payers are burdened with austerity while the companies pay nothing. IDGF about "scaring away the rich" if the fucking rich use loopholes to pay less or no taxes.
[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141332]Stop spouting slogans and wisecracks and start write down arguments, if you have any[/QUOTE] Ok, so to use your ridiculous language of individiduals when considering a national economy. What would you do if they guy came calling and you had no money? The correct answer of course is to file bankruptcy, not to take another loan out to pay him again. Of course, a national economy has more options such as inflating the value of the debt away, but Greece can't do that with no control over monetary policy.
[QUOTE=fragger0;48141302]THIS. Don't get FPs obsession with wanting them to pay up - why on earth should the greek people suffer even more for debt they have no involvement in creating whatsoever?[/QUOTE] Tax evasion is massive, rampant and unchecked in greece... The blame for this debt can be shared between the greek people and the corrupt politicians they have elected. So yeah, they can fucking pay what they owe.
Treating a national economy like individuals is what has led to the political popularity of the disastrous in certain areas of Europe. Austerity is downright harmful in a national sense since 'balancing the books' through increased taxes and reduced government spending causes inevitable shrinkage of the economy (the extent of which is debatable, with the IMF recently re-estimating the negative multiplier up from from around 0.7 to well over 1 - meaning a 1% cut in government spending results in a more than 1% fall in GDP). [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=AlexConnor;48141381]Tax evasion is massive, rampant and unchecked in greece... The blame for this debt can be shared between the greek people and the corrupt politicians they have elected. So yeah, they can fucking pay what they owe.[/QUOTE] How do they pay what they owe when they have no money? Through more loans, creating more debt, deepening the crisis (as we all know that debt will never be paid - everyone sensible on both sides agrees that)?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48141346] Tax evasion is rampant everywhere. In the Uk we have knighted people (important people who the queen personally knights, they get the title sir) who are known tax evaders, nothing happens to them. We have politicans who admit to tax evasion (Farage), Starbucks has evaded millions in tax. Its ridiculous. I agree about the Greeks having a messed up economy though.[/QUOTE] Not quite as rampant as in Greece, however. [URL="http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-920_en.htm"]In 2013 a special task force was formed to help Greece get their shit straight.[/URL] Apparently it didn't help. [quote][B]Over half of the technical assistance provided to date has focussed on tax administration/public financial management and central administrative reform.[/B] However, the technical assistance provided in the following areas has doubled in volume: better absorption of Structural Funds, anti-money laundering and anti-corruption as well as in support to the privatisation programme, land use and land registry.[/quote]
[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141332]Stop spouting slogans and wisecracks and start write down arguments, if you have any[/QUOTE] If you as a citizen default on a debt then (if you live in a developed country) you will declare bankrupcy and stuff you don't need is taken from you, any money you make over a certain amount is also used to pay off your debt. After a certain period your debts are cancelled and you can go on living with a poor credit rating. (If you are not in a developed nation chances are you will end up in slavery or prison or in a ditch somewhere) When a nation defaults on a debt then their neighbours can't just invade them and take their stuff. Instead they get their credit rating decreased, meaning investors will either charge more for loans or outright refuse to lend to them. There might also be sanctions. Any act of physically reclaiming from them is violating their sovereignty and would likely be considered an ACT OF WAR. That is the difference between a person in debt (at least thats the law in the UK, the US does have debtors jails which is fucking terrifying) and a country in debt. Every country is different and most treat a companies debt different from an individuals debt. Also fun fact - austerity almost never works, usually slows recovery and can cause lasting damage. As well as lower the standard of living.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141363]Ok, so to use your ridiculous language of individiduals when considering a national economy. What would you do if they guy came calling and you had no money? The correct answer of course is to file bankruptcy, not to take another loan out to pay him again. Of course, a national economy has more options such as inflating the value of the debt away, but Greece can't do that with no control over monetary policy.[/QUOTE] Which takes us to no one forcing Greece to enter the European Union in the first place (thus accepting the burdens that come with it) and asking for money to the IMF, which is known to handle loans to countries if said countries sign agreements to do certain things as far as their economies and state's structures are concerned In other worlds, if I request a loan when I know I won't be able to fullfill my part of the deal, I'm a fucking idiot. An idiot who may has been forced to ask for those money, but an idiot nevertheless [QUOTE]Also fun fact - austerity almost never works, usually slows recovery and can cause lasting damage. As well as lower the standard of living.[/QUOTE] I don't like austerity myself, but it is true that some of the least developed European countries have been living FAR above their possibilities, certain that the Union would had granted them money and funds on good faith alone I'm talking from experience since, by the look of it, Italy is the next in line after Greece (in due time, of course)
[QUOTE=demoguy08;48141410]Not quite as rampant as in Greece, however. [URL="http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-920_en.htm"]In 2013 a special task force was formed to help Greece get their shit straight.[/URL] Apparently it didn't help.[/QUOTE] Not sure how a privatisation programme would help tax evasion, if anything would make it worse. Informative post regardless.
[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141440]Which takes us to no one forcing Greece to enter the European Union in the first place (thus accepting the burdens that come with it) and asking for money to the IMF, which is known to handle loans to countries if said countries sign agreements to do certain things as far as their economies and state's structures are concerned In other worlds, if I request a loan when I know I won't be able to fullfill my part of the deal, I'm a fucking idiot. An idiot who may has been forced to ask for those money, but an idiot nevertheless[/QUOTE] The people who took that deal are no longer in power though? They're not the idiots, the previous governments are.
[QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141440] In other worlds, if I request a loan when I know I won't be able to fullfill my part of the deal, I'm a fucking idiot. [/quote] TRUE! +2 pts [quote]An idiot who may has been forced to ask for those money, but an idiot nevertheless[/QUOTE] false -1 pt They can not legally force Greece to pay. Unless they can convince the UN to let them invade and steal a bunch of stuff. which is... unlikely.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141446]The people who took that deal are no longer in power though? They're not the idiots, the previous governments are.[/QUOTE] And I'm sorry for that, but this is how things are It's not like I lead my shop to bankruptcy, then I made another the owner of it and all it's lively and well
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141446]The people who took that deal are no longer in power though? They're not the idiots, the previous governments are.[/QUOTE] Sadly the case for debtors the world over. African "politicans" in the 80s taking out loans, loan is more than paid off but people who weren't even born are still paying off the interest. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=EliaMoroes;48141463]And I'm sorry for that, but this is how things are It's not like I lead my shop to bankruptcy, then I made another the owner of it and all it's lively and well[/QUOTE] Again you mix up individuals, companies and countries. We've talked about this!
[QUOTE=Conscript;48140836]National sovereignty > international finance. Why should the working class, the masses of Greece, pay for a crisis that isn't their's? Why should they have their lives dictated by a detached neoliberal system and compelled to live in austerity? For the same reason, it is ridiculous TTIP has a protocol for allowing a company to sue a state for something like nationalization. Regardless of how you feel, where Greece goes will set a precedent for the place of a nation and its people in a globalized world.[/QUOTE] "why shouldn't a country be able to benefit and leech off a supranational system, and then when it fucks up, why should it have to face any consequences at all!!!"
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;48141485]"why shouldn't a country be able to benefit and leech off a supranational system, and then when it fucks up, why should it have to face any consequences at all!!!"[/QUOTE] Because the idiots let them in, and it's always well within the rights of a country to default on debt?
It's true that there is no way for the Greek people to pay back any of their debt right now. And it is highly unlikely that Germany or any of the other claimants are gonna start occupying land mass or something as a way to get compensated. There aren't really going to be any legal ramafications for the money not being paid back right now, it's just that inter-EU relations with Greece are going to be strained for a long, long time. The most likely scenario is that within 5-10 years or so when Greece has started to recover they're going to have to start paying back at least some of what is owed. There is some worry though that Russia might be looking to help Greece, and that would certainly put the EU in an interesting position.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48140874]Greece kept a LOT of their shit hidden. Debt was known beforehand, yes, but it wasn't known to be this much.[/QUOTE] That's a complete and utter lie. Before 2009 [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/05/eu-knew-greece-figures-fiddled"]the EU bureacracy (and by extension member states and banks) knew everything[/URL] about the accounting tricks Greece employed to enter and stay in the Union, participated in them, and [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/nov/29/debt-crisis-eu"]actively tried to make sure no one would know.[/URL] Just because the general public couldn't be assed to read the Financial Times or Bloomberg, doesn't mean it was a secret. How could anyone think that Greece could falsify its data without anyone noticing is completely out of touch with reality.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141517]Because the idiots let them in, and it's always well within the rights of a country to default on debt?[/QUOTE] if i let someone into my house it doesn't somehow give them carte blanche to shit on the fucking floor and I guarantee the same people that are celebrating their "victory against the debtors" will be the ones bitching about it if greece is dropped like a fucking rock economically because nobody in their right mind would invest anything in them if they default
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;48141596]if i let someone into my house it doesn't somehow give them carte blanche to shit on the fucking floor and I guarantee the same people that are celebrating their "victory against the debtors" will be the ones bitching about it if greece is dropped like a fucking rock economically because nobody in their right mind would invest anything in them if they default[/QUOTE] They didn't shit on the door, they continued doing exactly what they did before: Overspending with large deficits due to low tax revenues from rampant tax evasion at all levels of society and overspending on defence and pensions along with rampant corruption from the political class and below. It's more like you invited someone renowned for shitting on the floor into your house, then they shitted on the floor and you act surprised.
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