• Juncker loses temper with ‘irrelevant’ Greek voters
    101 replies, posted
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141662]They didn't shit on the door, they continued doing exactly what they did before: Overspending with large deficits due to low tax revenues from rampant tax evasion at all levels of society and overspending on defence and pensions along with rampant corruption from the political class and below. It's more like you invited someone renowned for shitting on the floor into your house, then they shitted on the floor and you act surprised.[/QUOTE] It's going to be very interesting politically in Germany due to this, that's for sure. Merkel is currently getting a ridiculous amount of flak in the media for being too lenient in this matter. (A good amount of what I've seen of that were spin articles in either direction and/or bad reporting though. The more serious publications are [I]a little[/I] more relaxed.)
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48141755]It's going to be very interesting politically in Germany due to this, that's for sure. Merkel is currently getting a ridiculous amount of flak in the media for being too lenient in this matter. (A good amount of what I've seen of that were spin articles in either direction and/or bad reporting though. The more serious publications are [I]a little[/I] more relaxed.)[/QUOTE] Yeah, I think Merkel seems to be the only one in Germany set on keeping Greece within the Eurozone, whilst much of the Christian Democrats and even many on the left are fed up and don't want more concessions. Although I'm not very well acquainted with German politics, I still think that Merkel's personal gravitas/power will carry her through any difficulties on the German side at making talks happen, and from what I've heard France are trying to do the same and prevent those set on forcing Greece out from taking control of negotiations and what is on the table.
[QUOTE=NeverGoWest;48141178]Well then how do you think this whole issue should be resolved? The greek state is indebted to the european union. Are we just going to seize their assets and force a vote for a new government? There is no ethical way of handling this. Letting them go without paying back what they owe would be showing weakness on the rest of Europes behalf, this is just as much ammo for the EUskeptics as the other. Its either a passive or aggressive solution, either way its going to show one of the many issues with the european union.[/QUOTE] The EU should bite the pillow and accept that their crazy gamble has failed and is now coming to bite them in the ass. No quite one knows how they're gonna go about getting their shit togheter, the only thing we know is that it's gonna suck for everyone involved.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48141799]Yeah, I think Merkel seems to be the only one in Germany set on keeping Greece within the Eurozone, whilst much of the Christian Democrats and even many on the left are fed up and don't want more concessions. Although I'm not very well acquainted with German politics, I still think that Merkel's personal gravitas/power will carry her through any difficulties on the German side at making talks happen, and from what I've heard France are trying to do the same and prevent those set on forcing Greece out from taking control of negotiations and what is on the table.[/QUOTE] I think you've got at least the German part 100% right. Merkel sometimes differs from her party line quite a bit (and has much higher approval ratings than her party got votes). She seems a bit populist in that she'll shift her position towards some kind of consensus (using surveys), which is probably one of the reasons she's so popular here. The CDU/CSU (Christian parties, generally economically liberal and culturally conservative) seem to not want to support Greece anymore: [URL="https://archive.is/Tich8"]"A victory that isn't one"[/URL] The Twitter snark of at least some politicians was something to behold after the referendum. [URL="https://archive.is/ahvxA"]They pretty much oppose SYRIZA 100%[/URL], calling their politics detrimental to everyone involved. I don't think they're going to budge from the status quo. The SPD seems to discuss humanitarian aid instead of economic measures, which would mean they're fine with Greece exiting and only providing support for the people directly when necessary. ([URL="https://archive.is/zS4tQ"]They don't have the topic as large headline[/URL], but [URL="https://archive.is/Xq4RO"]here's their statement regarding the matter[/URL]. They essentially support the EU's politics which recently slightly moved towards more investments, but expect talks to fail and Greece to completely default after the referendum's result.) Die Linke (the left) 100% agree with SYRIZA: [URL="https://archive.is/LKm47"]"YES to Europe - NO to Merkel's poisonous politics"[/URL] (This is pretty unsurprising. They have about 10% of seats so they can't really do much though.) Die Grünen (which are pretty moderate in practically all aspects) want to keep Greece in the Eurozone: [URL="https://archive.is/HfeuT"]"Greece must stay in the Euro"[/URL] [URL="https://archive.is/3i1sk"]They - like Merkel - want to hold Europe together politically.[/URL] (They are culturally fairly left but economically (slightly) right-ish, so while they don't agree with the Greek government they want to prevent it whiplashing into nationalist populism next.) Tallying it up (and assuming everyone votes according to their faction's official position), ~80% of the parliament don't want to provide (much) further reaching economic aid than what was offered so far. The two parties that want to do so do for different reasons, and [URL="https://archive.is/bxBdl"]Die Linke's reasoning is as usual full of holes[/URL]. (They conveniently omit that the Greek politicians are at least as guilty of antagonism as everyone else, lately.) Personally I mostly agree with all parties except Die Linke here, but there isn't going to be a middle way between the political and economic interests of the Euro zone's countries unless Greece manages to fix their economic system really quickly and starts cooperating to that end. I really don't see that happening though.
My ultimate question is this, and my apologies if I haven't been caught up enough (at this rate I never will). What is the EU even going to do, exactly? Can they just demand the money? They can't kick Greece out right away because they'll fall right into Russia's lap, but they can't just have them sucking away like a parasite while Italy, Portugal and Spain work to try and deal with their issues. Obviously the EU isn't going to form a pseudo army and start kneecapping officials in Greece, but what else can they do? I'm so damned confused and behind on this sorry if I sound like a total dolt.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48140767]That's more or less what they said. I understand they don't want the austerity measures to get even worse, but they're conveniently forgetting their own behaviour is the reason they got into this shit in the first place. No taxes on water because "it's a god-given right", as long as your home is under construction you don't pay tax on that (so as long as you make your house look as though it is under construction, no tax), WAY earlier pensions than the rest of europe and several other things.[/QUOTE] It's like the Great Depression didn't teach anyone anything. Austerity measures are the single most effective way to ensure that a country has a low chance of ever paying off its debt - It's a control method intended to keep the country in poverty and indebted practically forever. In order to stimulate an economy, money needs to be spent. Business needs to be incentivized, and most importantly, buying power has to be put in the hands of the consumer. To do this, social security, public education, and healthcare need to be well-funded, not slashed. So I'd say Greece is doing the right thing.
Placing bets on Greece retracting into itself, going full Nazi with their Golden Dawn party, and causing a problem for the rest of the world.
The austerity measures were fucked up and would've never helped greece
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48142652]My ultimate question is this, and my apologies if I haven't been caught up enough (at this rate I never will). What is the EU even going to do, exactly? Can they just demand the money? They can't kick Greece out right away because they'll fall right into Russia's lap, but they can't just have them sucking away like a parasite while Italy, Portugal and Spain work to try and deal with their issues. Obviously the EU isn't going to form a pseudo army and start kneecapping officials in Greece, but what else can they do? I'm so damned confused and behind on this sorry if I sound like a total dolt.[/QUOTE] They will kick Greece out (or rather: Greek will exit "voluntarily" to escape economic (cash-flow) deadlock), if the economic price becomes larger than the political one. I don't think Merkel thinks that's the case yet, but she's notoriously pragmatic and won't keep up that line forever. The Greek government currently seems to really try to make their country politically unattractive to the EU, considering they keep delaying a resolution while creating an anti-European sentiment. I assume they do this to shift the blame from the inevitable relative economic hardship away from themselves in the eyes of their voters, but it cheapens the country politically both to the EU and in turn to Russia, which is [I]really[/I] not in the best interest of the Greek people as far as I can tell. The gist is: - Previous government(s) amass(es) tons of debt to appeal to their voters - New government (SYRIZA) is voted in to fix it but doesn't want to take the fall either, so they use destructive populist measures to shift blame What's going to happen is probably one of: a) SYRIZA commits political suicide by doing a 180° flip in front of their voters, but after tons of antagonising populism actually works with the EU to finally get their finances in order b) SYRIZA turns 360° and walks away from the EU, running their country into the ground but (possibly) escaping blame by shifting it all onto "evil Germany" c) SYRIZA strikes a deal with Russia and manages to "save" their economy with a cash injection, but causes a lot of interesting trouble in the long term for practically everyone except Russia's politic influence N(orth Korea)) SYRIZA goes mad, starts printing Euro like crazy to "pay" their debts, stops honouring all kinds of international treaties while becoming fully communist, and kicks off a new humanitarian crisis. (This is a joke.) [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Disgruntled;48142889]Placing bets on Greece retracting into itself, going full Nazi with their Golden Dawn party, and causing a problem for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] Or this. It's what could realistically happen if the government fails to stay in power while crashing the economy, which is why Die Grünen want to prevent a "Grexit" at even a very high cost.
Honestly I don't even want to consider the Golden Dawn outcome, I would even prefer SYRIZA accepting the austerity measures. I have a "tin-foil hat" friend who is into conspiracies, and he really believes that all of this is intended so the nazis rise to the power and blocks the inmigrants going through Greece, making a favour to the EU. I laughed at his face before, but after how all is going down, I starting to have doubts now.
It would take a complete rewriting of the past 20 years for Golden Dawn to achieve anything, it's crazy to think that they'd get any real legitimacy in Greece.
[QUOTE=Disgruntled;48142889]Placing bets on Greece retracting into itself, going full Nazi with their Golden Dawn party, and causing a problem for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] Well they're already doing the first and the third.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;48142930]The austerity measures were fucked up and would've never helped greece[/QUOTE] Golly. Stripping people of their spending cash is bad for an economy?
"But Greece fooled Brussels!" Yeah sure, you're telling me, that one of the most prominent economic powerhouses in the world, the European Union, was feed bullshit by the Greeks for what, how many years? .... Talk about being a naive person.... [QUOTE]b) SYRIZA turns 360° and walks away from the EU, running their country into the ground but (possibly) escaping blame by shifting it all onto "evil Germany" [/QUOTE] Into the ground??
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48141422] When a nation defaults on a debt then their neighbours can't just invade them and take their stuff. Instead they get their credit rating decreased, meaning investors will either charge more for loans or outright refuse to lend to them. There might also be sanctions. Any act of physically reclaiming from them is violating their sovereignty and would likely be considered an ACT OF WAR. [/QUOTE] Ironically, this is the historic method of dealing with defaulting on a loan. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140755]Yes. That's part of the risk of lending money, you might not get it back. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] I mean they were never going to get back money anyway. Greece were always simply far too indebted and the shrinking GDP due to austerity and weak global markets (harming Greek shipping and tourism) making it even more unmanageable.[/QUOTE] No lender ever wants his money back. The lender wants a continuous flow of interest payments for eternity, whether it's a bank or a nation.
[QUOTE=Disgruntled;48142889]Placing bets on Greece retracting into itself, going full Nazi with their Golden Dawn party, and causing a problem for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] With what industry? If Greece ever went full retard with the Golden Dawn crap, the combined powers of NATO could blow them back to the stone age in a matter of days as an incidental side effect of a damned training exercise. Greece does not have the capacity right now to wage a war on that level, and has no ability to achieve that capacity any time soon. Even completely disregarding everything war related, the Golden Dawn would sink the country hundreds of times harder and faster than they are currently going down. Seriously, the Golden Dawns single strength is waving their nationalism around on flags hanging off their dicks. Their economic polices and ideals universally suck.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48146105][...] Into the ground??[/QUOTE] Yes. As it is, any Greek currency introduced to restore cash-flow would immediately inflate and "erase" all monetary balances. You can see this in some African countries and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic#Hyperinflation"]how Germany's economy and banking system failed between the world wars[/URL]. (The latter situation is fairly comparable, actually.) This is only without external cash injection though.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48143073] The Greek government currently seems to really try to make their country politically unattractive to the EU, considering they keep delaying a resolution while creating an anti-European sentiment.[/QUOTE] He did it again today, he refused to write a new proposal for how to handle things instead of the austerity measures and at the same time asked for more money. He's royally pissing the EU off.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48147455]He did it again today, he refused to write a new proposal for how to handle things instead of the austerity measures and at the same time asked for more money. He's royally pissing the EU off.[/QUOTE] "The global economy has collapsed and millions have lost their jobs because Alexis Tsipras has a gob on him".
They were doing fine until the global economy crash, honestly this was bound to happen sooner or later that a country's population would stand up against creditors, honestly they can't exactly be faulted for doing that.
[QUOTE=Wiggles;48140628]More like democracy being used as an excuse not to pay off debt.[/QUOTE] Acually they voted on taking on even more debt to pay off interest and giving in to the downright retarded EU conditions that would go with them. And since only a very very small percentage of the new debt would go to greece and the rest would go straight to interest I say it's a good vote. They didn't vote to not pay their debts, they voted to not make more. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=demoguy08;48141340]I wouldn't call the Greek people completely innocent. It's no secret that tax evasion is rampant in Greece. Granted, the government hasn't made it difficult to do it. But that is no excuse. You can't put into system not to pay your taxes and then be surprised when your social welfare state collapses.[/QUOTE] 800 Greek families control 90% of the Greek GDP tax evasion is not rampant in Greece, it's rampant in rich upper class circles just like in the rest of the world
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147557]Acually they voted on taking on even more debt to pay off interest and giving in to the downright retarded EU conditions that would go with them. And since only a very very small percentage of the new debt would go to greece and the rest would go straight to interest I say it's a good vote. They didn't vote to not pay their debts, they voted to not make more.[/QUOTE] As far as I know the EU had already suspended interest payments, so at least part of this isn't true. That's also the main reason why everyone else is so angry about the government pushing that vote.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48147622]As far as I know the EU had already suspended interest payments, so at least part of this isn't true. That's also the main reason why everyone else is so angry about the government pushing that vote.[/QUOTE] Suspending is not nullifying. The EU should stop trying to impose fruitless "reforms", we, Britain and the US have been trying this since 1945. Look here to understand why: [url]http://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_30477-544-1-30.pdf?120315164837[/url] They need to reform theirselves, mainly their elite, parties and the rich uperclass, read here why: [url]http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/europaeische-union/schuldenkrise-in-griechenland-chronik-des-desasters-13686169.html?printPagedArticle=true[/url]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147557]800 Greek families control 90% of the Greek GDP tax evasion is not rampant in Greece, it's rampant in rich upper class circles just like in the rest of the world[/QUOTE] The Greek government is highly complicit with that though: [URL="http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/15/die-welt-the-greek-govt-ignored-800-bln-in-black-money-transferred-to-swiss-banks/"]Switzerland [I]offered[/I] to release tax-evaded funds, but the Greek governments [I]refused[/I].[/URL] [editline]edit[/editline] The problem is a lot smaller than in this article but still exists, see below. I suspect they're trying to hide that money in case of a default.
Of course they are. See the second article I linked. That's why voting SYRIZA is such a good thing.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147638]Suspending is not nullifying. The EU should stop trying to impose fruitless "reforms", we, Britain and the US have been trying this since 1945. Look here to understand why: [url]http://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_30477-544-1-30.pdf?120315164837[/url] They need to reform theirselves, mainly their elite, parties and the rich uperclass, read here why: [url]http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/europaeische-union/schuldenkrise-in-griechenland-chronik-des-desasters-13686169.html?printPagedArticle=true[/url][/QUOTE] Of course. However that's definitely not going to happen voluntarily, seeing as how both the previous governments and this one didn't do much to fix it. Forgiving all the debt would most likely just mean Greece would crash again later, after borrowing even more money. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;48147658]Of course they are. See the second article I linked. That's why voting SYRIZA is such a good thing.[/QUOTE] I think you missed something from the article I linked: [U]SYRIZA is doing it too.[/U] They don't seem any better than the other governments at all.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48147659]Of course. However that's definitely not going to happen voluntarily, seeing as how both the previous governments and this one didn't do much to fix it. Forgiving all the debt would most likely just mean Greece would crash again later, after borrowing even more money. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] I think you missed something from the article I linked: [U]SYRIZA is doing it too.[/U] They don't seem any better than the other governments at all.[/QUOTE] That article about the 800 Bln was the laughing stock of German journalism because the Welt magazine mixed up Milliarden with Millionen. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [url]http://www.bildblog.de/63487/auf-7992-milliarden-mehr-oder-weniger-kommt-es-bei-griechenland-auch-nicht-mehr-an/[/url]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147692]That article about the 800 Bln was the laughing stock of German journalism because the Welt magazine mixed up Milliarden with Millionen.[/QUOTE] It doesn't change they're leaving money on the table. [URL="http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Syriza-setzt-die-alte-Klientelpolitik-fort-article15466966.html"]Here's another article about SYRIZA continuing the old broken system.[/URL] ([editline]edit[/editline] I'll try to find something in English...) They really can't be trusted to properly implement reforms at this point.
They say that SYRIZA is not trying to get people who are best for the job yet they ignore that SYRIZA, voted with 40% BARELY even hold the government. Look at this interview: [url]http://www.3sat.de/mediathek/?mode=play&obj=52694[/url] He's agreeing that the current reform attempts were broken and didn't work, the only thing he's saying is that the referendum was kinda useless and of no consequence in therms of legal meaning, but a very good political tool. Notice how he basically says that asking the people, [B]THE CORE IDEA OF A DEMOCRACY[/B] is brushed off as something meaningless and predictable. Also the same thing that happened back then in [B][U]2011[/U][/B]!!! [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_proposed_economy_referendum,_2011[/url] [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=976&v=c8H58ccYaLk[/url] 18:00 Juncker as one of the main profiteers of the gap between rich and poor should sht the fuck up [url]https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker#Illegale_Staatshilfen_f.C3.BCr_Gro.C3.9Fkonzern[/url] [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] Tackles even more good points at 22:00 and on in that video : [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=976&v=c8H58ccYaLk[/url]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147743]They say that SYRIZA is not trying to get people who are best for the job yet they ignore that SYRIZA, voted with 40% BARELY even hold the government. Look at this interview: [url]http://www.3sat.de/mediathek/?mode=play&obj=52694[/url] He's agreeing that the current reform attempts were broken and didn't work, the only thing he's saying is that the referendum was kinda useless and of no consequence in therms of legal meaning, but a very good political tool. Notice how he basically says that asking the people, [B]THE CORE IDEA OF A DEMOCRACY[/B] is brushed off as something meaningless and predictable. Also the same thing that happened back then in [B][U]2011[/U][/B]!!! [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_proposed_economy_referendum,_2011[/url] [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=976&v=c8H58ccYaLk[/url] 18:00 Juncker as one of the main profiteers of the gap between rich and poor should sht the fuck up [url]https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker#Illegale_Staatshilfen_f.C3.BCr_Gro.C3.9Fkonzern[/url][/QUOTE] I agree with all of this, (though I think that the referendum is a good political tool [I]for SYRIZA[/I] doesn't translate into it being a good political tool for anyone else). The problem is that I don't expect [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hellenic_Parliament&oldid=670242459"]them and the right-wing populists they are in coalition with to reach >50%[/URL] [URL="https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/manos-matsaganis/trouble-with-syriza"]to implement any practical solutions[/URL]. (I don't agree with this article completely, but it's fairly clear that the government has no strong political incentive to stabilise the country in its current environment.) The political rhetoric used is extremely confrontational and I have seen no constructive improvements reported in the last months, which really cannot lead to an actual solution no matter how much the other countries support Greece. (Note that Greece does have the option to implement reforms differently from the Troika's suggestions, as they already did in some ways and as the other EU countries that were in debt crises have done.) [editline]edit[/editline] Also note that the "asking the people" is normally "brushed off" here because asking the Greek people doesn't equate to asking all people in the EU. The other countries act primarily in the interest, and according the votes, of [I]their people[/I], and the Greek people can't change that by voting differently. Trade happens through mutual agreements. That you think Greece should be handled extra-patiently doesn't mean German people on average do, for example. The reason that Greece is in trouble and asking for money is that their current economy isn't sustainable. I'm not going to absolve the other countries from guilt in that regard, but if Greece did have better "management" they most likely would be competitive or self-sustaining in a way that wouldn't risk a humanitarian crisis. I'm also certain that most of the EU countries are ready to make a lot of concessions due to the political situation, such as giving Greece a lot more time to fix issues while providing economic aid.
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