• Juncker loses temper with ‘irrelevant’ Greek voters
    101 replies, posted
Did you watch the video completely? later on he speculates that they took in the far right to have a stable government at all because you need the military with you if you want the power to change anything, especially in Greece, the 5th biggest millitary in Europe.
[QUOTE=Killuah;48147977]Did you watch the video completely? later on he speculates that they took in the far right to have a stable government at all because you need the military with you if you want the power to change anything, especially in Greece, the 5th biggest millitary in Europe.[/QUOTE] I think this is in an article I linked, but the left in Greece is significantly different from the left in Germany: Here, the left is very anti-nationalist while in Greece they used primarily nationalist rhetoric to get into power. Similarly, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Independent_Greeks&oldid=670495002#Policies"]ANEL doesn't appear to oppose economically "left" policies[/URL]. From what I can tell, there is quite a large overlap between them right now, as can also be seen in SYRIZA parlamentarians suggesting to rogue-print Euros (which, practical issues aside, is an unthinkable notion for politics geared towards mutual understanding). So no, I think they are in coalition because, right now, their politics actually align fairly well. (It's very common for the right-left spectrum to break down internationally. Normally you need at least four axes to categorise political positions comparably (authoritarianism/liberalism and conservatism/progressivism, each economically and culturally), and even that is probably stretching it due to finer cultural and economic differences and indifference regarding some positions.)
He's right when he calls the referendum a joke. The former Greek government is to blame for years of mismanagement and basically using EU money to enrich themselves instead of managing and improving their country. Now when the EU wants them to pay off debt, the government pits the Greek people against the EU and basically turns it into an us vs. them scenario, which is unfair to the people. Whatever happens now, the people are fucked. And what's worse is, they're going to blame the EU instead of the ones who actually plunged them into this shit. You can't just borrow a load of money and then expect to never have to pay it back. That only leads to depression or war.
[QUOTE=V12US;48148087]He's right when he calls the referendum a joke. The former Greek government is to blame for years of mismanagement and basically using EU money to enrich themselves instead of managing and improving their country. Now when the EU wants them to pay off debt, the government pits the Greek people against the EU and basically turns it into an us vs. them scenario, which is unfair to the people. Whatever happens now, the people are fucked. And what's worse is, they're going to blame the EU instead of the ones who actually plunged them into this shit. You can't just borrow a load of money and then expect to never have to pay it back. That only leads to depression or war.[/QUOTE] They never used any 'EU' money until the bailouts. They used money from other sources who willingly lent them the money to finance their deficits, and took on a risk doing so like all creditors, all fully willingly and unforced.
And even the bailouts are guarantees. Germany didn't pay money, we vouched for even more credits. In fact Greece already paid us more than 200 million for those bails. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=V12US;48148087]He's right when he calls the referendum a joke. The former Greek government is to blame for years of mismanagement and basically using EU money to enrich themselves instead of managing and improving their country. Now when the EU wants them to pay off debt, the government pits the Greek people against the EU and basically turns it into an us vs. them scenario, which is unfair to the people. Whatever happens now, the people are fucked. And what's worse is, they're going to blame the EU instead of the ones who actually plunged them into this shit. You can't just borrow a load of money and then expect to never have to pay it back. That only leads to depression or war.[/QUOTE] But everyone else does this. Germany has more than 2 trillion in debt. We are never gonna pay this back. No chance in hell. We just have a bigger budget to hide those interest rates. Every "payback" we've done so far is making new debt to pay off the old. In fact the only European country paying back debt is Switzerland, and they did this because of brace yourselves [I]a referendum in 2001[/I]
[QUOTE=Killuah;48148206]But everyone else does this. Germany has more than 2 trillion in debt. We are never gonna pay this back. No chance in hell. We just have a bigger budget to hide those interest rates. Every "payback" we've done so far is making new debt to pay off the old. [...][/QUOTE] It's not comparable. The German budget is currently balanced, meaning that while we still lose money to interest payments, the amount of debt doesn't increase. Germany also gets a pretty good interest rate from the private sector, so the loans are not as much of a problem and don't spiral out of control. (I'd still be very grateful if they eventually got around to reducing the debt though, since it only makes sense if they can invest the available money in a way that produces more returns that the interest amounts to. Which doesn't mean "high-risk high-interest loans to other countries".) What Greek politicians did (and apparently want to continue to do) is to use money extremely inefficiently, which means that they build up destructive debts that "improve" the economy in their legislation period and let the next government take the fall. The exception would be SYRIZA's populist nationalism that may be able to shift blame for the collapse to an external party in the public eye, no matter how untrue that really is. The referendum in Switzerland is cool imo, since it managed to make a good but otherwise (due to the short-term effects) probably unpopular measure popular. I really wouldn't mind that happening here in Germany either. However this again only applies limitedly to Greece: I very much doubt the Swiss people were misinformed through ideological means leading up to that referendum. What the current Greek government is doing is to smudge economic issues with cultural ones, and to outright lie about short-term effects of the decision and what was decided on. You can't really call that functioning democracy.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48140855]I support what you are saying but "detached neoliberal system" sounds a bit tinfoil hatty. That TTIP stuff is terrifying. No company should have that power. Companies aren't democratic, giving them more power than an elected government is a fucking farce. I think the EU is overall a good system and have potential to be a great system. In 1700s a united germany would have sounded like a pipe dream, now they're one of the most powerful nations in the world. The EU can be the same once we get rid of our growing pains. Just think of it as another layer of government. In germany the federalisation means each region has relative freedom to do what it likes, it can be the same in the EU.[/QUOTE] It's not Tinfoil hatty, the EU does a lot to push neoliberal ideals on countries
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;48148367]It's not Tinfoil hatty, the EU does a lot to push neoliberal ideals on countries[/QUOTE] To some extent, yes. However in the larger scheme of things I'd say it's still pretty moderate. It also definitely isn't [I]forcing[/I] anyone to adopt those systems. [editline]8th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48148097]They never used any 'EU' money until the bailouts. They used money from other sources who willingly lent them the money to finance their deficits, and took on a risk doing so like all creditors, all fully willingly and unforced.[/QUOTE] This risk goes both ways though. If Greece doesn't pay its debt they can't get easily further credit, which leads to illiquidity. Which is exactly what happened. I doubt there is currently any private sector bank that would willingly invest into Greece.
[QUOTE=demoguy08;48141340]I wouldn't call the Greek people completely innocent. It's no secret that tax evasion is rampant in Greece. Granted, the government hasn't made it difficult to do it. But that is no excuse. You can't put into system not to pay your taxes and then be surprised when your social welfare state collapses.[/QUOTE] This so hard. Let them stew in it, you don't get to evade taxes and then cry about budget cuts when the state runs out of money.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;48148410]To some extent, yes. However in the larger scheme of things I'd say it's still pretty moderate. It also definitely isn't [I]forcing[/I] anyone to adopt those systems. [/QUOTE] They don't force, they just put very heavy pressure on them to do it
[QUOTE=Virtanen;48148505]This so hard. Let them stew in it, you don't get to evade taxes and then cry about budget cuts when the state runs out of money.[/QUOTE] Except 90% of the production is owned by 800 families so the tax evasion is really not happening at the normal everyday Greek, the guys most afflicted by the crisis. In fact most Greek tax comes from loan and taxes and VAT. [editline]9th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Tamschi;48148340]It's not comparable. The German budget is currently balanced, meaning that while we still lose money to interest payments, the amount of debt doesn't increase. Germany also gets a pretty good interest rate from the private sector, so the loans are not as much of a problem and don't spiral out of control. [/QUOTE] This is not true. Germany IS making new debt. It's just that interest rates are steadily declining for Germany and Luxemburg while rising for most other EU countries. The only reason why we have a "balanced" budget is that the new debts we are making create less interest than the previous debts(thanks to the Crash of 2008 and redebting together with the fact that Greece and other countries are paying incredibly high interest rates to Germany from the bailouts. We are talking 5 billion ADDITIONALLY in interest since 2007 (not only from Greece though). Basically because the German industry is so big we are making a shitload of debts at low interest rates at the EZB while lending a shitload of the very same money with high interest rates as "bailouts" to countries that are on the brink of collapsing anyway. [url]https://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/DE/Downloads/Veroeffentlichungen/Monatsberichtsaufsaetze/2013/2013_09_entwicklung_zinsausgaben.pdf?__blob=publicationFile[/url] Page 52
[QUOTE=Killuah;48155679]This is not true. Germany IS making new debt. It's just that interest rates are steadily declining for Germany and Luxemburg while rising for most other EU countries. The only reason why we have a "balanced" budget is that the new debts we are making create less interest than the previous debts(thanks to the Crash of 2008 and redebting together with the fact that Greece and other countries are paying incredibly high interest rates to Germany from the bailouts. We are talking 5 billion ADDITIONALLY in interest since 2007 (not only from Greece though). Basically because the German industry is so big we are making a shitload of debts at low interest rates at the EZB while lending a shitload of the very same money with high interest rates as "bailouts" to countries that are on the brink of collapsing anyway. [url]https://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/DE/Downloads/Veroeffentlichungen/Monatsberichtsaufsaetze/2013/2013_09_entwicklung_zinsausgaben.pdf?__blob=publicationFile[/url] Page 52[/QUOTE] This is very informative, thanks for pointing it out. I suppose I fell for cooked numbers somewhere... I'm also very critical of those bailouts btw, but probably in the other direction: If the country is not improving through economical reforms or has large untapped growth potential blocked only by liquidity then it makes no sense to give them more money to delay a crash, and I don't think this was completely unpredictable. (I consider the bailouts charitable because they effectively drop interest rates for Greece quite harshly, still, compared to the normal market, but unless something is done about the underlying issues that's in vain too.) [del]As I said, I'm still pretty critical of Germany's fiscal policy since the interest-growth-differential (page 63) is still positive for this country. It seems the only countries around here that currently benefit from borrowing are Luxembourg and Finland.[/del] [editline]edit[/editline] Hm... actually since it's a differential and not a difference the threshold is likely at 1 and not 0. This means that Germany has a net gain from borrowing currently while Greece has had a net loss for quite a while. Judging by the numbers I'd say I have to re-think my position on borrowing right now, since it seems it's currently beneficial. As soon as it goes over 1 I'd very much hope they don't pick up any new bonds over that value though. However, the same table also shows that Greece[del], like Germany,[/del] didn't really benefit from borrowing money for a long time already, and the trend doesn't seem to suggest they would have at some point in the near past or future.
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