Australian child molester Peter Scully faces death penalty in Philippines
367 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
How do you determine who "deserves" to live?
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, so what makes it different in this case?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110609]How do you determine who "deserves" to live?
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, so what makes it different in this case?[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/MQSswZ1.png[/IMG]
This killing is lawful. Ergo, it is not murder. Not sure why you're so squeamish about killing to such an extreme extent regardless of exact definitions. Some people deserve to be killed, and others need to be killed (such as in a war).
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
I don't think this dude has even a fucking shred of empathy or human decency.
This dude is the literal definition of a monster. Even if what happened to him as a kid messed him up, he wasn't convicted of looking at kiddy porn or some awful shit, he raped and dismembered a child and clearly has no empathy over what he did.
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
This debate is not necessarily just about this guy (we all agree that he is a horrible human being), its more about the death penalty in general
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110631][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/MQSswZ1.png[/IMG]
This killing is lawful. Ergo, it is not murder. Not sure why you're so squeamish about killing to such an extreme extent regardless of exact definitions. Some people deserve to be killed, and others need to be killed (such as in a war).[/QUOTE]
What makes killing acceptable?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110645]What makes killing acceptable?[/QUOTE]
Can't tell if you're trolling at this point.
Aside from the armchair psychologists judging whether or not he's 'beyond help', what confuses me is that people seem to think he doesn't deserve help anyway
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110658]Can't tell if you're trolling at this point.[/QUOTE]
why? it's a straight forward question. What makes it okay?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110664]Aside from the armchair psychologists judging whether or not he's 'beyond help', what confuses me is that people seem to think he doesn't deserve help anyway
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
why? it's a straight forward question. What makes it okay?[/QUOTE]
Because it is punishment, which is required to help bring justice. Most people desire to try and make the world more just, and even though doing this fully is impossible, delivering capital punishment upon this man can do a little part to help in this goal. Even in countries without the death penalty, we administer punishment for crimes. Imprisonment is punishment, for example, as I have previously explained, even though it of course does serve some other purposes. What makes imprisonment okay if you're so against punishment? After all, what makes it okay to deny freedom to people? Once a serial killer is incapable of killing any more due to health problems, should we just let them out? Or do we accept that to try and bring justice, we should keep them locked up anyway?
How does death penalty work as a good punishment and as justice? how does it affect change? As a deterrent? It certainly isn't a "now you've learned your lesson" thing
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
If we accept that a person is who they are because of circumstances before or after their birth, then we can quite fairly relate this person to someone who is diseased (genetically or otherwise). Now since this disease causes him to injure those around him, we can perhaps relate it to something like Ebola virus.
When someone has Ebola, obviously you don't just let them walk around because "oh it's not their fault that they're hurting others". You keep them contained. But in the case of an Ebola patient, there isn't blame, there's treatment
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110688]Because it is punishment, which is required to help bring justice. Most people desire to try and make the world more just, and even though doing this fully is impossible, delivering capital punishment upon this man can do a little part to help in this goal. Even in countries without the death penalty, we administer punishment for crimes. Imprisonment is punishment, for example, as I have previously explained, even though it of course does serve some other purposes. What makes imprisonment okay if you're so against punishment? After all, what makes it okay to deny freedom to people? Once a serial killer is incapable of killing any more due to health problems, should we just let them out? Or do we accept that to try and bring justice, we should keep them locked up anyway?[/QUOTE]
that's your idea of justice, obviously there are many who think that killing is not an acceptable form of punishment no matter the offence
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110699]How does death penalty work as a good punishment and as justice? how does it affect change? As a deterrent? It certainly isn't a "now you've learned your lesson" thing
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
If we accept that a person is who they are because of circumstances before or after their birth, then we can quite fairly relate this person to someone who is diseased (genetically or otherwise). Now since this disease causes him to injure those around him, we can perhaps relate it to something like Ebola virus.
When someone has Ebola, obviously you don't just let them walk around because "oh it's not their fault that they're hurting others". You keep them contained. But in the case of an Ebola patient, there isn't blame, there's treatment[/QUOTE]
A complete moral dead end. Not everyone can be helped, or wants to be helped, firstly. Secondly, denying human agency like this is pointless and ultimately nihilistic and not worth debating. Since we're going down this route, I say I'm a poor, helpless human being zipping through time, and shaped by my genetics and life circumstances, I have received the evil, bloodthirsty desire for revenge. Now I want this man to be killed and I can't help it.
[QUOTE]This thinking ultimately implores us to strip all individuals of agency and responsibility for their actions, effectively seeing the most vile of murderers as helpless human beings spinning through time. This is utterly unsustainable in reality. The modern denial of evil (and as such rejection of justice) is possibly one of the most negative consequences of the decline of Christianity. We all tacitly know that evil exists and needs to be, and should be, punished in order to at least do some of our part to try to create a more moral world. We try and pretend that imprisonment is for other reasons - perhaps for maintaining public safety/order, or for rehabilitation, or for crime deterrence. But ultimately we don't keep old men barely capable of walking but convicted of multiple murders from 30 years ago locked up for any reasons. We all understand that this is some kind of judgement that society is making in order for justice to be best made.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51110725]that's your idea of justice, obviously there are many who think that killing is not an acceptable form of punishment no matter the offence[/QUOTE]
Okay, but since I have explained why I think killing is acceptable in some circumstances (as it is a signifier of the most heinous of crimes, which feeds into our primal desire for justice and retribution and also is the most clean way of providing punishment), you also need to explain why killing (I'll be generous and exclude circumstances of immediate danger from this) is always unacceptable.
[B]There is nothing wrong with wanting revenge.[/b] It is built within us (and built within any idea of justice) and you shouldn't feel bad for wanting it, like some people seem to. This is the point want to emphasise most. People who pretend they don't want some kind of revenge have usually suppressed it - this is not a natural feeling.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110766]A complete moral dead end. [B]Not everyone can be helped[/B], or [B]wants to be helped[/B], firstly. Secondly, denying human agency like this is pointless and ultimately nihilistic and not worth debating. Since we're going down this route, I say I'm a poor, helpless human being zipping through time, and shaped by my genetics and life circumstances, I have received the evil, bloodthirsty desire for revenge. Now I want this man to be killed and I can't help it.
[/QUOTE]
Why? according to who? Also if they don't want help, that's what prison is for.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110783]Why? according to who? Also if they don't want help, that's what prison is for.[/QUOTE]
By the way - even if he could be helped, I would still advocate him being locked up for the rest of his life, or killed (I swing between pro and anti-capital punishment when talking on a macro level, but in individual cases like this there is nothing wrong with it in my view) for the reasons of justice (which involves punishment/revenge/retribution) I have already described.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110766] Since we're going down this route, I say I'm a poor, helpless human being zipping through time, and shaped by my genetics and life circumstances, I have received the evil, bloodthirsty desire for revenge. Now I want this man to be killed and I can't help it.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't mean you should be allowed to. Most people follow morals, and we follow them for a reason: they make people happier and make society a better place.If someone Is acting against or outside of those morals then the purpose of those actions should be found and resolved OR there should be a discussion about if the morals should change
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110800]By the way - even if he could be helped, I would still advocate him being locked up for the rest of his life, or killed (I swing between pro and anti-capital punishment when talking on a macro level, but in individual cases like this there is nothing wrong with it in my view) for the reasons of justice (which involves punishment/revenge/retribution) I have already described.[/QUOTE]
Let's imagine he is rehabilitated and psychologically treated. why kill or imprison him then? (aside from the possibility that he isn't actually healthy)
Holy shit I'm going to get fucked by posting this.
If we move this death-or-no-death thing aside, there's one thing I'd like to mention.
For the record I ain't no expert so please don't hit me: What if our top priority which should be the most effective method yet, is by somehow prevent these individuals to develop into these monsters ("none is born criminal" bla bla you know). Like criminology, find the patterns and predict where things like this mostly would happen. The reason why most crime rates exist in low economical areas, or people that have been affected by other negative factors. Not saying this guy should be punished or not, just that there's a reason why he became like this (because what is biology?), and if we found the source of his behavior, we might be able to decrease the possibility that this would happen again. Of course there's still going to be people like him, but atleast reduce the amount. The same reason people say [I]"Go over to that kid and talk to him, be his friend, or else he might shoot up our school in the future"[/I]. Not a clear solution, but I think it's something we should look into. Because the less monsters out there, more lives we save.
I'm a guy that don't believe in free will so this is very biased: I personally believe it is us, who are members of this society that has a duty to fix it, and therefore prevent major parts of these dark corners to erupt, and that yes he should be punished/rehabilitaded (since he's an immediate threat to others), but so should we for not doing something against this issue. Yes we already get punished because of these "people's" actions, but I'm thinking about the future victims. It's a highly idealistic mind set yes, but that's how I am. This problem probably won't be able to be fixed instantly, except for a 1000 years of cultural and systematic change.
Lock him up for good, or shoot him, I don't care, just keep him away from my family. But what I'm really worried about, is that [B]I don't believe[/B] (remember that bold) any of our choices will matter in the end, because this will just go on a continues circle, because after this guy, another one will arrive, and it'll go on and on. If we really wish to find a solution, we must dig into it's origin and act from the information it gives us, not by a snake's skin.
Just had to say that.
I agree that under circumstances like these there is NOWHERE NEAR enough conversation about the cause of people like this. All the talk is about punishment and prison, which are glorified band aids
For the record: Right now I'm not choosing a side, because I'm not sure of anything. Just outside the box you know, giving those slick perspectives like a special snowflake
I've already explained the answer to every possible question you seem to have.
It is to fulfill our desire for justice, which inevitably involves revenge and punishment. Capital punishment is the ultimate punishment for the worst of crimes. Trying to create a more just and more moral society, in which wrongdoing is punished to the best of our abilities, is beneficial to everyone and makes almost all of us happier. Administering capital punishment (let's discuss this on a micro level, because on a macro level I oppose capital punishment) helps us try to achieve this.
You need to do some explaining too. What is so wrong with retributive justice? Why is killing always immoral? Why do you wish to make everyone less happy and society less just (as the vast, vast majority of people will see it as just killing this man) by keeping a man who has proven himself to be evil alive?
Even if there were a cause of this behaviour (and, as someone who does believe in human agency, it most likely doesn't really exist), that wouldn't negate the desire for justice and punishment. Discussions would simply go alongside it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110766]A complete moral dead end. Not everyone can be helped, or wants to be helped, firstly. Secondly, denying human agency like this is pointless and ultimately nihilistic and not worth debating. Since we're going down this route, I say I'm a poor, helpless human being zipping through time, and shaped by my genetics and life circumstances, I have received the evil, bloodthirsty desire for revenge. Now I want this man to be killed and I can't help it.
Okay, but since I have explained why I think killing is acceptable in some circumstances (as it is a signifier of the most heinous of crimes, which feeds into our primal desire for justice and retribution and also is the most clean way of providing punishment), you also need to explain why killing (I'll be generous and exclude circumstances of immediate danger from this) is always unacceptable.
[B]There is nothing wrong with wanting revenge.[/b] It is built within us (and built within any idea of justice) and you shouldn't feel bad for wanting it, like some people seem to. This is the point want to emphasise most. People who pretend they don't want some kind of revenge have usually suppressed it - this is not a natural feeling.[/QUOTE]
Revenge is personal, petty, and subjective. The goals of revenge are to fulfil base human desires. Justice is impartial and objective. Its purpose is to maintain order in society. The two cannot and should not mix.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110853]I've already explained the answer to every possible question you seem to have.
It is to fulfill [B]our desire for justice, which inevitably involves revenge[/B] and punishment. Capital punishment is the ultimate punishment for the worst of crimes. Trying to create a more just and more moral society, in which wrongdoing is punished to the best of our abilities, is beneficial to everyone and makes almost all of us happier. Administering capital punishment (let's discuss this on a micro level, because on a macro level I oppose capital punishment) helps us try to achieve this.
You need to do some explaining too. What is so wrong with retributive justice? Why is killing always immoral? Why do you wish to make everyone less happy and society less just (as the vast, vast majority of people will see it as just killing this man) by keeping a man who has proven himself to be evil alive?
Even if there were a cause of this behaviour (and, as someone who does believe in human agency, it most likely doesn't really exist), that wouldn't negate the desire for justice and punishment. Discussions would simply go alongside it.[/QUOTE]
speak for yourself please
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51110855]Revenge is personal, petty, and subjective. The goals of revenge are to fulfil base human desires. Justice is impartial and objective. Its purpose is to maintain order in society. The two cannot and should not mix.[/QUOTE]
That's what we claim, because we are squeamish about revenge. In reality, we don't just imprison people in Britain for public safety, we also do it for punishment, and that makes everyone in the rest of society much happier. All justice systems include revenge, we just try and hide it. It is inevitable as society demands it.
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110867]speak for yourself please[/QUOTE]
Alright: 98%+ of people. And I think most of the remaining 2% have suppressed their desire for any revenge at all because they have been told it is bad.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110870]That's what we claim, because we are squeamish about revenge. In reality, we don't just imprison people in Britain for public safety, we also do it for punishment, and that makes everyone in the rest of society much happier. All justice systems include revenge, we just try and hide it. It is inevitable as society demands it.
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
Alright: 98%+ of people. And I think most of the remaining 2% have suppressed their desire for any revenge at all because they have been told it is bad.[/QUOTE]
No that's just your warped view of society. In addition to keeping away dangerous individuals, punitive measures are meted out as a deterrent to potential criminals, and as a reminder to offenders that what they did is wrong.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110853]\
[B]You need to do some explaining too. What is so wrong with retributive justice? Why is killing always immoral? Why do you wish to make everyone less happy and society less just (as the vast, vast majority of people will see it as just killing this man) by keeping a man who has proven himself to be evil alive?[/B]
Even if there were a cause of this behaviour (and, as someone who does believe in human agency, it most likely doesn't really exist), that wouldn't negate the desire for justice and punishment. Discussions would simply go alongside it.[/QUOTE]
Because it doesn't HELP anything. It doesn't change or affect what made him do the things he did, or stop the events that will make others do terrible things. Which means it's just killing, like a murderer.
Why should we keep him alive??? Why keep anyone alive? why keep me or you alive? same reason
And of course we've suppressed our desire for revenge. Just like we've suppressed our desire to stab someone who pissed us off on the streets, or to smash a glass over the head of someone who called our mom a whore in the pub.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51110870]That's what we claim, because we are squeamish about revenge. In reality, we don't just imprison people in Britain for public safety, we also do it for punishment, and that makes everyone in the rest of society much happier. All justice systems include revenge, we just try and hide it. It is inevitable as society demands it.
[editline]26th September 2016[/editline]
Alright: 98%+ of people. And I think most of the remaining 2% have [B]suppressed their desire for any revenge at all because they have been told it is bad.[/B][/QUOTE]
Morals, that's what it's called.
Also:
jus·tice
ˈjəstəs/
noun
1.
just behavior or treatment.
"a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people"
synonyms: fairness, justness, fair play, fair-mindedness, equity, evenhandedness, impartiality, objectivity, neutrality, disinterestedness, honesty, righteousness, morals, morality
"I appealed to his sense of justice"
Then:
just
jəst/Submit
adjective
1.
based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.
"a just and democratic society"
synonyms: fair, fair-minded, equitable, even-handed, impartial, unbiased, objective, neutral, disinterested, unprejudiced, open-minded, nonpartisan; More
[editline]27th September 2016[/editline]
I don't see revenge or retribution anywhere
We should remember that things like, desires, needs, social norms: morality and beliefs of justice varies strongly from cultures to cultures. Our own opinions today may be imprisoned and moved by our own positions and living conditions, and is therefore important to criticize ourselves.
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
so, he did cut that girls leg off with a chainsaw
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
I, too, like to throw objectivity and logical consistency out of the window when faced with something that challenges my beliefs.
[QUOTE=Orkel;51110598]Mm yeah, a Facepunch death penalty argument in a thread about a dude who rapes and dismembers 5 year olds. Some of you people are delusional if you think this monster deserves to live.[/QUOTE]
If only we could all be so morally righteous as to be okay with the killing of another human being.
Preach, brother.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;51110609]How do you determine who "deserves" to live?
[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess you could start by finding all the people who [B]don't[/B] torture, rape and dismember children and sell videos of it; and deem they deserve to live. Then you can sort of work backwards from there and find all the people who don't deserve to live by a process of deduction.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.