Ukraine on brink of 'full-scale war' with Russia, says President Poroshenko
103 replies, posted
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45847329]The Americans pulled so much dastardly shit to win to win the Cold War, supporting the Mujaheddin (AlQueda) in Afghanistan and the Contras (fascist terrorists) in Latin America.
Seriously, watch Oliver Stone's stuff, America pulled so much fucked up shit because they were afraid the Soviets would take over the world.
Don't get me wrong; I don't like Communism, and it probably contributed somewhat, but I don't think Russia should have surrendered it's East European sphere or let go of any territory. I would be happy if Russia abandoned Communism whilst still maintaining the geopolitical power of the Soviet Union.
America needs a counterbalance, we can't have one all-powerful superpower reigning over the world, with no one able to impose consequences on it. Such a super-powerful entity's leadership would go mad with power, as is happening now.[/QUOTE]
what the fuck man
you do realize that the reason the soviet union lost their "Eastern European sphere" wasn't because of some evil western plan stole it away from them, but because the nations rose up against decades of repression and forced russification? do you understand that what the Soviets did was indefinitely worse then what the USA ever did? America might of supported some shady organizations and tolerated some bad governments but the Soviet regime [B]WERE[/B] the terrorists, the intimidators and the oppressors
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
they do not fucking "deserve" any of the territory they "surrendered"
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
the territory wasn't taken away by anybody or surrendered to anybody, it broke free
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;45846794][img]http://media.cagle.com/78/2014/03/07/145396_600.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
This may sound a little weird but it's like those history exams where they show you a picture of a political issue before a war and ask your opinion on it.
Except this time it's happening here and now, here's hoping years from now kids won't be taking an exam with this picture asking if the EU/US could have done anything more to prevent WWIII or something.
[QUOTE=MisterSpuds;45847781]This may sound a little weird but it's like those history exams where they show you a picture of a political issue before a war and ask your opinion on it.
Except this time it's happening here and now, here's hoping years from now kids won't be taking an exam with this picture asking if the EU/US could have done anything more to prevent WWIII or something.[/QUOTE]
Something tells me that unless Russia's govt. has less douches and more ok people, then WWIII will always be a threat with the whole Cold War and West vs East thing.
[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;45847704]U.S. foreign policy is keeping us from mutually assured destruction by fighting this as a proxy war. God forbid we stay out of DEFCON 1.
Not to mention the U.S. has significantly slashed military funding recently after the war in the middle east.[/QUOTE]
If the United States really wanted to diffuse the situation they would apologize for whipping up the Euromaidan movement that led to this whole thing in the first place.
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45848012]Bit hard to apologize for nothing.[/QUOTE]
American Senators traveled to Ukraine to encourage the protests and a State Department official was recorded discussing plans to topple the government. The west put intense pressure on Yanukovych to step down, rather than treating the whole thing as none of their business.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848001]If the United States really wanted to diffuse the situation they would apologize for whipping up the Euromaidan movement that led to this whole thing in the first place.[/QUOTE]
What exactly are you talking about here?
[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848032]American Senators traveled to Ukraine to encourage the protests and a State Department official was recorded discussing plans to topple the government. The west put intense pressure on Yanukovych to step down, rather than treating the whole thing as none of their business.[/QUOTE]
Oh.
Hasn't this been discussed multiple times? I feel it's far easier to just dig up an old thread and have you read it because this is always the same discussion now, which has been clarified what happened exactly so.
Can't we just give the Ukraine some weapons and tanks etc?
[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;45848056]Can't we just give the Ukraine some weapons and tanks etc?[/QUOTE]
People need to stop suggesting this because it wouldn't do anything.
Someone put it pretty well in another related thread: Ukraine's problem isn't weapons and equipment, Ukraine's problem is loyal troops.
[editline]31st August 2014[/editline]
well that and organization
Ukraine doesn't have an issue with material, they just have a severe problem in corruption, incompetence, loyal trained manpower, and logistics surrounding these materials.
With the recent events it gives you insight into how weak Ukrainian state control really is. They got pushed back quite easily and continue to lose ground and all that took was Putin half flexing, increasing rebel support.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848032]American Senators traveled to Ukraine to encourage the protests and a State Department official was recorded discussing plans to topple the government. The west put intense pressure on Yanukovych to step down, rather than treating the whole thing as none of their business.[/QUOTE]
Source?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45848138]Source?[/QUOTE]
I don't have the links at hand but don't you remember this stuff? I remember the leaked phone calls and various senators thumping their chests.
The US and Russia are playing the same game really, Russia is just being a lot more aggressive about it.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848032]American Senators traveled to Ukraine to encourage the protests and a State Department official was recorded discussing plans to topple the government. The west put intense pressure on Yanukovych to step down, rather than treating the whole thing as none of their business.[/QUOTE]
Source? Also Yanukovych was impeached in favor of a pro-European government. It was pretty obvious he was pro-Russian because he was then reported to have fled to Russia for safety afterwards.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848032]American Senators traveled to Ukraine to encourage the protests and a State Department official was recorded discussing plans to topple the government. The west put intense pressure on Yanukovych to step down, rather than treating the whole thing as none of their business.[/QUOTE]
they didn't fucking discuss plans to topple the government, they just discussed who would probably be in the new government if yanuk falls
are you expecting them not to discuss anything before it happens, for them not to do their job by analyzing politics?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45848138]Source?[/QUOTE]
A transcript of the leaked call:
[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957[/URL]
And an article which mentions John McCain addressing a Euromaidan rally:
[URL="http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/"]http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/[/URL]
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45848247]A transcript of the leaked call:
[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957[/URL]
And an article which mentions John McCain addressing a Euromaidan rally:
[URL="http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/"]http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/[/URL][/QUOTE]
And where in that phone call did it talk about them trying to topple the government? All I got from that was an ambassador discussing concerns over the future of the Ukrainian government with the situation with Yanukovych that was about to unfold.
[editline]Edited: [/editline]
Excluding the BBC correspondent's analysis which was irrelevant and opinionated to begin with.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45847329]
America needs a counterbalance, we can't have one all-powerful superpower reigning over the world, with no one able to impose consequences on it. Such a super-powerful entity's leadership would go mad with power, as is happening now.[/QUOTE]
Wholly Rufus confirmed for KGB internet shill.
Wholly, you have to be the most historically ignorant poster I've seen here
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45847046]That reminds me...
There were in my opinion, three main victims of World War II: Russians, Chinese and Jews.
if you think about it, two out of those three have to put up with a great deal of shit today:
The Russian's paid for their victory in huge amounts of blood, yet they have lost most of the territory they gained from that victory to the machinations of the west, who didn't have to pay nearly as steep a price.
I don't need to explain what the Jews went through, but to this day the only Jewish state has almost every attempt to defend itself second guessed by so many people, and is under continual pressure to shrink it's borders.
No justice man...
At least the Chinese are doing alright, mostly.[/QUOTE]
You do know that the reason for such immense losses on the Soviet side were due to their leadership right? During the Great Purge Stalin murdered or drove away thousands upon thousands of officers and other high ranking military personnel because of his fear of being overthrown by competent military officials. He then proceeded to replace these individuals with loyalists that mostly had no fucking clue on how to fight effectively. What you had was millions of soldiers and conscripts being led by fanatics that were absolutely loyal to Stalin but had no concept of proper strategy that would save lives. Their method was to throw countless soldiers at a problem until it just overwhelmed the enemy. I'm not saying that [i]every[/i] Soviet officer was incompetent but because of the Great Purge there were not nearly as many qualified officers as before. So please don't give me that BS, the Russians don't deserve to control the former eastern bloc because of their own mistakes.
The Russians don't deserve a single foot of land beyond their current borders. The Ukrainian government was toppled because most of the people weren't happy with it, whether it was caused by western influence is up for debate but the revolution is over. Russia should have stayed the fuck out of it. Instead they decided to support pro-Russian rebels that have been wreaking havoc in eastern Ukraine and now they're actually bringing troops and tanks across the border. They have already possibly killed or injured Ukrainian soldiers with their artillery fire from across the border. If that's not a cause for full-scale war I don't know what is. Whatever happens I just hope the conflict ends with Ukraine keeping its borders and ridding it of those separatists along with Russia calling off its armed forces. If they keep this up the only thing that would stop them would be the borders of Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania. If any Russian troops cross those borders they'll have to contend with NATO and that's the last thing Russia would want.
it's gunna be like Spain civil war and Saarland, Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Bohemia and Moravia of Czechoslovakia, Memel prior WW2
the west will be giving territory to aggressor to avoid war, the aggressor gets more bold and cruel each time ...
until the real point-of-no-return
Transinistria (former part of Moldavia), South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and now east/southeast Ukraine are defacto silently occupied by Russian forces
and each time, the conflict is bigger, cost more lifes of people and heavier weapons are used ...
[QUOTE=Aman;45848151]I don't have the links at hand but don't you remember this stuff? I remember the leaked phone calls and various senators thumping their chests.
The US and Russia are playing the same game really, Russia is just being a lot more aggressive about it.[/QUOTE]
I followed Euromaidan protests and the only time I heard anything about US material support was from pro-Russians complaining about the big-bad evil Westerners trying to steal Ukraine away from poor old Russia.
US is not playing the same game as Russia though. You can tell me we're playing the same game when you see M1 Abrams and White American paramilitaries in Ukraine, bonus points for active military personnel.
[QUOTE=Dwarden;45850565]it's gunna be like Spain civil war and Saarland, Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Bohemia and Moravia of Czechoslovakia, Memel prior WW2
the west will be giving territory to aggressor to avoid war, the aggressor gets more bold and cruel each time ...
until the real point-of-no-return
Transinistria (former part of Moldavia), South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and now east/southeast Ukraine are defacto silently occupied by Russian forces
and each time, the conflict is bigger, cost more lifes of people and heavier weapons are used ...[/QUOTE]
I've heard no news of Russian forces even thinking about Transinistria though?
I've yet to see actual pictures of Russian infantry in Donetsk. Supposedly there are thousands, unless they dress like rag tag separatists.
Where is that fucker, anyways?
I wouldn't be surprised is Putin is deliberately trying to provoke a major war so he can declare a national emergency and reform Russia back into the USSR
[QUOTE=shadowraptor;45851096]I wouldn't be surprised is Putin is deliberately trying to provoke a major war so he can declare a national emergency and reform Russia back into the Russian Empire[/QUOTE]
ftfy
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45846893]We aren't living in the 30-40's Rufus, stop comparing everything to Nazi Germany, holy crap[/QUOTE]
some people were just born in the wrong generation
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45846883]Hitler thought "Guns, bombs, tanks and an arsenal of weaponry, fanatical hatred, and unwavering acts of remorseless violence and cruelty" would destroy the Soviet Union.
A few years later Russian troops were marching down the streets of Berlin carrying full-sized portraits of Stalin.[/QUOTE]
It almost did destroy the Soviet Union. The Wehrmacht was only a few miles from the Gates of Moscow and the only thing that stopped them from getting there was Hitler's own stupidity and saboteurs in the Wehrmacht who stopped winter clothing from reaching troops. The Soviet Union suffered twice the losses Germany did during the war. You've got no idea what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45847121]The Germans attacked them in a genocidal war of extermination, the Russians fought back and won, in the process they managed to extend a sphere of influence across Eastern Europe. The Americans kept the bit they fought in and the Russians kept theirs.[/quote]
wat
Last time I checked, the US didn't annex France, England, and half of Germany lmfao
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45847121]
By western machinations I refer to the Cold War. Try watching [I]Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States[/I] and tell me the Americans were the obvious good guys of that conflict.[/QUOTE]
The fact you think theres "good guys" and "bad guys" during the cold war just goes to show how naive and ignorant your perception of the past 75 years are.
[QUOTE=Amez;45850213]You do know that the reason for such immense losses on the Soviet side were due to their leadership right? During the Great Purge Stalin murdered or drove away thousands upon thousands of officers and other high ranking military personnel because of his fear of being overthrown by competent military officials. He then proceeded to replace these individuals with loyalists that mostly had no fucking clue on how to fight effectively. What you had was millions of soldiers and conscripts being led by fanatics that were absolutely loyal to Stalin but had no concept of proper strategy that would save lives. Their method was to throw countless soldiers at a problem until it just overwhelmed the enemy. I'm not saying that [i]every[/i] Soviet officer was incompetent but because of the Great Purge there were not nearly as many qualified officers as before. So please don't give me that BS, the Russians don't deserve to control the former eastern bloc because of their own mistakes.[/QUOTE]
Poor leadership at the beginning of the war did contribute to high soviet casualties in the beginning, but the larger reason for the enormous casualties was because of the way the Germans conducted themselves. The idea behind Hitler's war in the East was that Germany would conquer everything west of the Urals, the Russian people living there would be exterminated and the land resettled by Germans. Because of this whole towns of people were sent to death camps and entire cities were starved. This was based on a prevalent European belief at the time that the Slavs were an inferior people who were occupying far more land than they deserved to. It was a European manifest destiny.
The German's never intended the same thing with France or any of the western countries they occupied. In Hitler's mind all western Europeans were still superior races, only the peoples of the east deserved wholesale extermination.
[QUOTE=Amez;45850213]The Russians don't deserve a single foot of land beyond their current borders. The Ukrainian government was toppled because most of the people weren't happy with it, whether it was caused by western influence is up for debate but the revolution is over. Russia should have stayed the fuck out of it. Instead they decided to support pro-Russian rebels that have been wreaking havoc in eastern Ukraine and now they're actually bringing troops and tanks across the border. They have already possibly killed or injured Ukrainian soldiers with their artillery fire from across the border. If that's not a cause for full-scale war I don't know what is. Whatever happens I just hope the conflict ends with Ukraine keeping its borders and ridding it of those separatists along with Russia calling off its armed forces. If they keep this up the only thing that would stop them would be the borders of Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania. If any Russian troops cross those borders they'll have to contend with NATO and that's the last thing Russia would want.[/QUOTE]
Sphere's of influence exist, whether you like it or not Ukraine was part of Russia's until the revolution. If you seriously expect Russia to be happy with an unfriendly Ukraine on its doorstep you don't know geopolitics.
The United States never accepted Cuba, a communist state off it's southern coast, because of a very simple reason; countries don't like hostile neighbors on their doorstep.
Even if the immediate crisis is resolved, the relationship between Ukraine and Russia will be the same as the relationship between the United States and Cuba for decades to come.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45850937]I've heard no news of Russian forces even thinking about Transinistria though?[/QUOTE]
Russian forces are already there.
[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;45847360]Yes because the Cuban Missile Crisis is definitely something we need Russia re-enacting.
[editline]Edited: [/editline]
To make my point more clear: Russia's response to the aftermath of the Suez crisis when we deployed ballistic missiles was for them to also deploy nuclear missiles in Cuba. That's not exactly a great scenario for someone who just warned Western powers they are capable of a nuclear assault.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the United States shouldn't have deployed ballistic missiles in the first place.
A lot of seemingly aggressive things the soviets did were simply in response to stuff the Americans did:
Seriously; Watch. Oliver. Stone's. Shit.
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