• Practice Makes Perfect? Not So Much, New Research Finds
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[QUOTE=LegndNikko;40718980]My teacher told us an alternate version of the phrase. Practice makes permanent. If you keep practicing it the wrong way, you'll keep doing it the wrong way.[/QUOTE] My teacher told us the same, and attached "Perfect practice makes perfect."
Oh cool. Now I have an excuse for why I will never learn to draw. Now I just need to figure out how to be content with my complete lack of skill in areas other than schoolwork. [editline]20th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=OrionChronicles;40719071]I disagree. If I didn't practice I'd have a D in Calculus and be a fail Viola player. (B+ and one of the top in the state.)[/QUOTE] The article isn't stating that practice is worthless. It's saying that it doesn't work for everything on everyone. There's still going to be a considerable amount of cases where practice actually does do some good.
I think this is kind of misleading. Practice isn't just frequency. Effort accounts as well. For example, go on deviant art. Look at the sea of people who continue to draw the same fanart stuff over and over without practicing any basic artistic skills (perspective,shape,form,value etc.) Many of them keep the same artistic knowledge for YEARS without making any attempt to practice things they've never done before. I've never heard of anyone doing routine gesture/photo studies and not getting better artistically. I don't know how much it differs from music or chess but I would imagine it's the same thing. Musicians who don't study music theory or chess players who don't study strategies don't improve as much as musicians/players who do. Regardless I do know people who are ridiculously good at certain things at a really young age without any practice whatsoever, but I don't think that means there are people who can't improve no matter how hard they try.
So some people have more talent than others. Big surprise.
I thought the general idea behind practice is that the more you familiarize yourself with a subject the more likely you'll find inspiration and get a "eureka!" moment with that subject (assuming you don't burn yourself out), rather than practice being the thing itself that slowly gets you better In other words, practicing is choosing to actively fail at hitting the full potential at what you can do, for a lack of any better option (as at the point you are practicing, your mind and body simply don't have the knowledge and coordination yet). It's our failures that teach us best, as it helps us learn more naturally how to accomplish issues or conquer a skill. You can't expect to gain knowledge by never doing what you do. Which is why some people can somehow just naturally be good at something - it's because they only needed to experiment and "practice" with what they were doing before their brain and body were able to figure it out. In other words, kids you should still practice. Just realize that doing it over and over by itself isn't what get's you good at something. It's having a creative and open mind while you do whatever you practice that lets you actually get good at doing it, so you can actually learn about what you are doing so you don't waste your time "practicing" by just going through the motions, rather than actually mastering something. (also this is why we must start pushing creativity more in schools versus high academic scores, because the ability to be creative in life and problem solving is where real intelligence and the ability to learn anything new lies)
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. The vast majority of people practice things everyday without putting critical thought or effort towards them - most people in western cultures have been driving every day since they were 16 or 18 yet they are fucking terrible drivers some many years later still. The difference is stark against someone who has actually put critical thought towards their task and has drilled repetitively.
Practice doesn't imply 'effort'. I'd image if you took a bunch of people who all had [I]exactly the same[/I] passion, drive and motivation for whatever they were doing, and then only differed the amount of practice that each one of them put in you'd probably find that there was a pretty linear trend (of course factoring in biological shit like hand eye coordination and such if it was something like playing an instrument).
Interesting: They claim that working memory (like L1-3 cache in a CPU) contributes heavily to intelligence, but I've also seen studies that attribute it to your ability to do simple math at speeds. But the weird part is that I suck at doing "fast" simple math, yet according to tests I took at the hospital I have a slightly higher than average intelligence; I wonder if it simply has to do that my brain isn't "wired" for Math. Anyway, I think the article is fairly important, some people are seriously just 'better' at things than others: and sometimes you've just gotta' accept it. [QUOTE=The First 11'er;40717360]this is true in some cases, but practice does make perfect whether studies support or deny it[/QUOTE] Well, no. As the study concluded: "Practice... "...Accounted for only about one-third of the differences in skill in both music and chess.". Simply whisking away scientific reviewed studies with 'This is true, [b]but[/b] [no matter what] practice makes perfect' Is a pretty bad state of mind.
Yeah exactly what I needed, Scientific evidence that I'll never be good at anything in my life thanks.
[QUOTE=glitchvid;40722332]Interesting: They claim that working memory (like L1-3 cache in a CPU) contributes heavily to intelligence, but I've also seen studies that attribute it to your ability to do simple math at speeds. But the weird part is that I suck at doing "fast" simple math, yet according to tests I took at the hospital I have a slightly higher than average intelligence; I wonder if it simply has to do that my brain isn't "wired" for Math.[/QUOTE] It always bugs me when people say that they just don't 'get' maths and give up on it entirely because they're too lazy or something. If you do it for long enough and actually consciously think about it you learn to find little tricks to make things more manageable. 17*22? You can make that easier by making it 17*2*11, which is 2*[17*(10+1)] which is 2*(170+17), which is 2*187, which you could even break down into either [(2*180)+(2*7)] or 2*(200-13) if you really wanted to. Or alternatively even just straight up do 34*11 which is even easier than all of that bullshit [(34*10)+34]. Or you could even do something like 17*25 (which is (17*100)/4) then subtract 17*3. Hell, if you do it for long enough and actually think about ways to simplify things you can actually do some pretty crazy calculations or at the very least some rough order-of-magnitude calculations in your head.
[QUOTE=sltungle;40722420]It always bugs me when people say that they just don't 'get' maths and give up on it entirely because they're too lazy or something. If you do it for long enough and actually consciously think about it you learn to find little tricks to make things more manageable. 17*22? You can make that easier by making it 17*2*11, which is 2*[17*(10+1)] which is 2*(170+17), which is 2*187, which you could even break down into either [(2*180)+(2*7)] or 2*(200-13) if you really wanted to. Or alternatively even just straight up do 34*11 which is even easier than all of that bullshit [(34*10)+34]. Or you could even do something like 17*25 (which is (17*100)/4) then subtract 17*3. Hell, if you do it for long enough and actually think about ways to simplify things you can actually do some pretty crazy calculations or at the very least some rough order-of-magnitude calculations in your head.[/QUOTE] This is basically how I do math.
2478 hours on TF2 and I'm still shit at every class but medic. [editline]21st May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=sltungle;40722420]It always bugs me when people say that they just don't 'get' maths and give up on it entirely because they're too lazy or something. If you do it for long enough and actually consciously think about it you learn to find little tricks to make things more manageable. 17*22? You can make that easier by making it 17*2*11, which is 2*[17*(10+1)] which is 2*(170+17), which is 2*187, which you could even break down into either [(2*180)+(2*7)] or 2*(200-13) if you really wanted to. Or alternatively even just straight up do 34*11 which is even easier than all of that bullshit [(34*10)+34]. Or you could even do something like 17*25 (which is (17*100)/4) then subtract 17*3. Hell, if you do it for long enough and actually think about ways to simplify things you can actually do some pretty crazy calculations or at the very least some rough order-of-magnitude calculations in your head.[/QUOTE] Yeah trust me I've been actively trying for about a decade to get a lot better at math. My brain just cannot "do math" like I can easily learn, spell, and memorize hundreds of words and recall dates and important events in history. Some people are absolutely incredible at math and yet they couldn't tell you when WW2 started or consistently spell a word after hearing it for 20 years.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;40722825]My brain just cannot "do math" like I can easily learn, spell, and memorize [B]hundreds of words [/B]and recall dates and important events in history.[/QUOTE] If we say hundreds means two hundred, that means you know about 0.1% of the English language. Not very impressive. :v:
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;40722825]2478 hours on TF2 and I'm still shit at every class but medic. [/QUOTE] Might that be an example of the whole "reinforcing bad practice" thing? I know that half the time when I'm playing TF2, I'm just running around doing the same shit and I'm not actually trying to learn something, but if I've recently read somewhere about some tip to improve one's gameplay with a certain class, then I'm more likely to experiment with that and learn what works. I was a W+M1 pyro for a long time because the tactic was A) easy, and B) technically worked, until I happened upon a thread condemning them, which led me to try different ways of playing the class.
This is what depreses me about not sticking with footy and guitar from an early age, I'm only 22 and I've completely missed the boat on ever being great at two things I love :(
Pretty interesting. I think part of it is the intention - if you intend to master a skill you'll go further than if you just treat it as a hobby. And also the enjoyment you find in it - if you truly enjoy something, you'll stick with it and pour countless hours into your refinement of it. I think this also spreads to how your initial skill level is influenced also - about 8 years ago I attempted to play guitar, had no conscious reason for doing so, nor natural enjoyment - and the furthest I got was playing '7 nation army' albeit poorly, 2 weeks later - before quitting. I picked up Guitar again a few months ago after having become genuinely interested in the likes of Joe Satriani - and within a day could pretty much play any song after spending a few minutes working it out - and improvise solos to those songs. Sure I don't have any knowledge of theory or music reading and that side of it is kind of irrelevant, I have no intention of becoming an 'academic musician', I enjoy it simply for the playing, and my figuring-out / soloing skills/ speed have improved a great deal since I started, and I have discovered things like 'guitar modes' which simplifies the identification process even more. In regards to actual development of skills - I believe it has a lot to do with pattern recognition and (consciously or unconsciously) recognising the mistakes you make along the way - which goes towards making the skill 'natural' and fluid - I don't think practice/ traditional learning often engages the 'naturalising' of skills as much as it should. Like, when I started with guitar, I had to actively engage effort, and pay attention to where my finger was to avoid playing bum notes, follow the mode I was playing, etc - now that's becoming more natural. In masters of guitar, it is observable that they are effortless in their playing of the guitar - there is little attention placed in the majority of the playing, it has become fluidly natural to a degree that they can be considered absolute masters. Likewise, 3DSmax took me a while to learn, when I started modelling 6 years ago, like I had to put effort and pay attention to what I was doing, what tools I was using, and what buttons I was clicking - now it's entirely effortless and natural - I just sit down with the software open and, 5 hours later, have produced something that I intended to. I've also never been interested in school, and have always done poorly academically, until I came to University, where the subject interested me - and I've absolutely thrived at it.
[QUOTE=sltungle;40722420]It always bugs me when people say that they just don't 'get' maths and give up on it entirely because they're too lazy or something. If you do it for long enough and actually consciously think about it you learn to find little tricks to make things more manageable.[/QUOTE] It's honestly true that any person can get to a certain level of math-skills by practicing a lot, like you imply you do yourself. However not anyone has the same priorities as you, people who work out a lot might say that other people are not as physically fit as them because they are too 'lazy' to do the physical exercise needed to get to their level, but they instead might spend their free-time doing math or other activities and getting better at those instead.
innate intelligence is a major factor for life success, nothing new here [editline]21st May 2013[/editline] plus working hard isn't a way to get around the genetic lottery - conscientiousness substantially heritable. while it can be trained, the amount of grit or determination that someone can potentially have is genetically predetermined.
What we've always said at my University is Perfect Practice makes Perfect Playing.
Bullshit
Can anyone explain something I've noticed recently with myself? I produce music as a hobby and I'd love it to one day be a career but dreams are dreams. I do however think about writing, playing and performing music everyday all day. Constantly have songs in my head and constantly think about all kinds of instruments and how to play them, but I haven't actually been practicing them at all. Yet I can pick up a guitar and be noticeably better than I was last time I played. I went from being able to not play a rock beat on drums to being able to play drums well enough to fool people into thinking that's what I play. I just want to know if you are constantly thinking about practicing, is it still practice?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40723754]innate intelligence is a major factor for life success, nothing new here [editline]21st May 2013[/editline] plus working hard isn't a way to get around the genetic lottery - conscientiousness substantially heritable. while it can be trained, the amount of [b]grit or determination that someone can potentially have is genetically predetermined.[/b][/QUOTE] Our current knowledge base with regards to genetic predispositions is still in its infancy, so making wild claims like the above comes across as wholly unscientific.
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;40724500]Our current knowledge base with regards to genetic predispositions is still in its infancy, so making wild claims like the above comes across as wholly unscientific.[/QUOTE] well no not really because it's been confirmed many times the field as a whole being in its infancy does not mean that it cannot make strong, specific claims
Hah, in my exercise physiology class the prof drew a pie chart on the board that states why people are good at things. 50% genetics 25% practice 25% I forget
[QUOTE=Joazzz;40717279]well i'm going to keep up the copious amount of guitar practice anyway[/QUOTE] I think that's more to do with motor control and muscle memory, not exactly technique. Practice could probably turn you into a talented lead guitarist from a mechanical standpoint, but practice won't necessarily turn you into a good composer or musician.
I guess I was lucky then. Started playing piano 4 years ago. I can now take on ABRSM grade 8 pieces with relative ease. Still, I wouldn't have gotten here with some seriously intense practice. Practice may not make perfect, but it is still absolutely necessary for achieving your maximum potential.
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