[QUOTE=Nikota;33945065]We can use that same logic for fetus's.[/QUOTE]
Problem is nothing biologically is changed after a fetus is born
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945118]G
Problem is nothing biologically is changed after a fetus is born[/QUOTE]
uh
quite a bit is, actually.
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
I mean, a lot is.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33945082]AND NEITHER IS ABORTION.
How many times do you have to hear this?
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
But how does this logic work, anyhow, SomeRandomGuy16? If a woman willingly undergoes something with a known miscarriage risk factor, why doesn't that count as murder (or manslaughter), but abortion does?
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
Are you seriously saying something that isn't human has no right to life? On the sole basis that it's not human?[/QUOTE]
Taking a risk that may kill someone and ends up killing them is illegal, but due to the ambiguity and difficulty of dealing with this for fetuses I would just leave it unlegislated.
And yes, that's why they're called [b]human[/b] rights.
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;33945126]uh
quite a bit is, actually.
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
I mean, a lot is.[/QUOTE]
During the process of birth, nothing is changed about a fetus; besides apparently its status as a human (according to you guys)
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
My point is using birth as a marker is arbitrary
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945009]What's your point? Tape worms are involuntary and aren't even human in first place. They have no right to life.[/QUOTE]
what about tumours
they're entirely human
do they get human rights? they're just as sentient as a fetus is
[QUOTE=Zeke129;33945213]what about tumours
they're entirely human
do they get human rights? they're just as sentient as a fetus is[/QUOTE]
1. They are part of the person's body, they have every right to do whatever they want with the tumors
2. Not true, by third trimester fetuses are relatively aware, at least moreso than a tumor
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
And just to give perspective, would you be okay with a woman giving birth and then leaving the baby somewhere to die? It's the exact same as abortion, only the removal process is different. What makes the baby in this case have any more rights?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945118]Problem is nothing biologically is changed after a fetus is born[/QUOTE]
-It stops receiving nutrients via the umbilical cord
-It starts using lungs to breathe air
-It starts using eyes and ears
-Its brain begins developing the facilities needed to interpret sensory information, so that it will eventually be able to "see" and "hear" in the sense that we do
I think a few things are changed biologically!
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945251]...
2. Not true, by third trimester fetuses are relatively aware, at least moreso than a tumor
...[/QUOTE]
Except third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and illegal in a bunch of places except for medical reasons. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, which is still predominately the embryonic stage.
[QUOTE=TH89;33945505]-It stops receiving nutrients via the umbilical cord
-It starts using lungs to breathe air
-It starts using eyes and ears
-Its brain begins developing the facilities needed to interpret sensory information, so that it will eventually be able to "see" and "hear" in the sense that we do
I think a few things are changed biologically![/QUOTE]
Then theres that puberty thing I keep hearing about.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945143]
During the process of birth, nothing is changed about a fetus; besides apparently its status as a human (according to you guys)
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
My point is using birth as a marker is arbitrary[/QUOTE]
Except a foetus is a lot different than a new-born baby.
A fetus is little other than a parasite until the umbilical cord is severed.
[QUOTE=TH89;33945505]-It stops receiving nutrients via the umbilical cord
-It starts using lungs to breathe air
-It starts using eyes and ears
-Its brain begins developing the facilities needed to interpret sensory information, so that it will eventually be able to "see" and "hear" in the sense that we do
I think a few things are changed biologically![/QUOTE]
In the exact moment the baby leaves the womb, it is the exact same as before. There is nothing to mark its new human status
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheDecryptor;33945523]Except third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and illegal in a bunch of places except for medical reasons. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, which is still predominately the embryonic stage.[/QUOTE]
Yes but if your argument is that fetuses have no rights until they are born then third trimester abortions must be OK by your logic
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;33945570]Except a foetus is a lot different than a new-born baby.[/QUOTE]
Depends on how old the fetus is
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945009]
Sperm aren't human until they fertilize an egg[/QUOTE]
So I guess you believe a human being is developed the moment a sperm hits the egg then.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;33945894]So I guess you believe a human being is developed the moment a sperm hits the egg then.[/QUOTE]
Once it is fertilized, yes
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945776]...
Yes but if your argument is that fetuses have no rights until they are born then third trimester abortions must be OK by your logic
...[/QUOTE]
Don't try to claim to know what I think.
It's not black and white, early stage fetuses don't have a working heart, lungs or brain, while late stage fetuses are capable of surviving on their own outside the body, it depends on the stage of development the fetus is at and the odds of being able to survive outside the host mothers body.
If the law states that all fetuses regardless of developmental age have full human rights, then what happens if there's a medical issue that requires an abortion, or if the mother loses the fetus through natural means? Do we charge them with manslaughter or murder?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945926]Once it is fertilized, yes[/QUOTE]
This is all I needed to read to know I shouldn't bother responding to you again.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;33945963]This is all I needed to read to know I shouldn't bother responding to you again.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much.
As long as an egg is fertilized they are identical to a baby! Gee whiz I wonder why they spend 9 months in the womb then. Bloody slackers
[QUOTE=Contag;33945995]Pretty much.
As long as an egg is fertilized they are identical to a baby! Gee whiz I wonder why they spend 9 months in the womb then. Bloody slackers[/QUOTE]
I never said that
Anyways, I'm done with my devil's advocate for the day. Good night friends!
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33945776]In the exact moment the baby leaves the womb, it is the exact same as before. There is nothing to mark its new human status[/QUOTE]
I just listed a bunch of things. I'm sure there are more!
[QUOTE=TheDecryptor;33945523]Except third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and illegal in a bunch of places except for medical reasons. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, which is still predominately the embryonic stage.[/QUOTE]
Which is something I said like a page back, but it appears SomeRandomGuy16 can't read.
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946030]I never said that
Anyways, I'm done with my devil's advocate for the day. Good night friends![/QUOTE]
Oh, right, you're playing devil's advocate here, too, huh? That has nothing to do with the fact that all of your arguments have been slaughtered?
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=TH89;33946403]I just listed a bunch of things. I'm sure there are more![/QUOTE]
So - definitely can't read, then, eh?
That, or s/he's so willfully ignorant that s/he completely ignores anything that contradicts his/her views.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946431]Oh, right, you're playing devil's advocate here, too, huh? That has nothing to do with the fact that all of your arguments have been slaughtered?[/QUOTE]
if that makes you feel better, then whatever, but if you look at my posts I have no history of being pro-life
Look at your posts? No, thanks. Judging from the high caliber of your posts here, I can be relatively assured my time would be better spent watching some paint dry.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946598]Look at your posts? No, thanks. Judging from the high caliber of your posts here, I can be relatively assured my time would be better spent watching some paint dry.[/QUOTE]
If you huffed the paint, you'd experience a similar reduction in intelligence as well.
Also lol. "If I didn't post it on Facepunch, it means I can't possibly believe it!"
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946598]Look at your posts? No, thanks. Judging from the high caliber of your posts here, I can be relatively assured my time would be better spent watching some paint dry.[/QUOTE]
Um ok
What is your point other than to gain some satisfaction from attacking me with a poorly directed jab over the internet
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946609]Also lol. "If I didn't post it on Facepunch, it means I can't possibly believe it!"[/QUOTE]
You just really want to believe you won the argument that badly don't you
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946609]Also lol. "If I didn't post it on Facepunch, it means I can't possibly believe it!"[/QUOTE]
Well hey, I'm didn't post that I was actually a dog. It can't be true.
[img]http://www.toddsorlando.com/getfile/78fffc9a-f66c-4bad-9eea-d1f241e00af8/Bear-at-desk-far.aspx[/img]
[editline]29th December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946616]
You just really want to believe you won the argument that badly don't you[/QUOTE]
Wow, it's almost as if you [I]weren't[/I] just playing devil's advocate, and that was really just a way to cover up your true feelings.
Gee, weren't you supposed to have [del]fled[/del] gone to bed?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946616]Um ok
What is your point other than to gain some satisfaction from attacking me with a poorly directed jab over the internet
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
You just really want to believe you won the argument that badly don't you[/QUOTE]
My point is that you're not nearly intelligent or articulate enough to make me want to seek more of your miscellaneous thoughts or opinions. I would get nothing out of doing so. I love arguing with people, especially if they can make me consider things I never taken into account before. You rehash the same tired bullshit arguments over and over, and ignore everything that doesn't fit into your viewpoint.
If you were really pro-choice, you wouldn't be posting this shit for pages. Don't insult us. You're not doing it to play devil's advocate.
[QUOTE=devotchkade;33946641]My point is that you're not nearly intelligent or articulate enough to make me want to seek more of your miscellaneous thoughts or opinions. I would get nothing out of doing so. I love arguing with people, especially if they can make me consider things I never taken into account before. You rehash the same tired bullshit arguments over and over, and ignore everything that doesn't fit into your viewpoint.
If you were really pro-choice, you wouldn't be posting this shit for pages. Don't insult us. You're not doing it to play devil's advocate.[/QUOTE]
I'm not telling you to read my posts, I'm just trying to provide evidence that I'm not pro life
And actually I would, because I enjoy seeing things from different perspectives because I'm not closed-minded like you
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
Also low blow with the intelligence jab, comments like that always point to an idiotic, closed-minded, arrogant person
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946657]
Also low blow with the intelligence jab, comments like that always point to an idiotic, closed-minded, arrogant person[/QUOTE]
So are you calling yourself stupid?
Or are you unaware that you essentially said
"Insulting someone's intelligent is stupid, and people who do that are stupid... people like [I]you[/I]"
That's an insult paradox right there
[QUOTE=Contag;33946681]So are you calling yourself stupid?
Or are you unaware that you essentially said
"Insulting someone's intelligent is stupid, and people who do that are stupid... people like [I]you[/I]"
That's an insult paradox right there[/QUOTE]
No I'm saying resorting to insulting your opponent's intelligence usually points to someone who is so locked into their beliefs that they think someone can't possibly be intelligent and of the opposing view
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946657]I'm not telling you to read my posts, I'm just trying to provide evidence that I'm not pro life[/QUOTE]
That's not evidence. As I said before, just because you didn't post it on this particular forum doesn't make it untrue.
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946657]And actually I would, because I enjoy seeing things from different perspectives because I'm not closed-minded like you[/quote]
You actually would, what?
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy16;33946657]Also low blow with the intelligence jab, comments like that always point to an idiotic, closed-minded, arrogant person[/QUOTE]
I don't mean intelligence in the way you're thinking. I don't have to agree with you to find you intelligent. A lack of intelligence to me is a lack of critical thinking, and an ability to change your opinion based on new information. You don't display either. You clearly ignore things that don't fit into your argument, and repeat the same shit again and again.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
