No, I asked you a question:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33923858]Well the societal effects of abortion aren't very well understood. Some think it might have a positive effect on crime and poverty while others would (rightfully) say there isn't enough evidence to make that claim.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TH89;33923932]Who? Who are these people, and why are they ignoring all the evidence of, like, everything that happened before 1973?[/QUOTE]
which you deflected by angrily demanding to know what happened in 1973:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33924440]The fuck are you even talking about?[/QUOTE]
Actually looking back I think I thought you were talking about deaths from illegal abortions, not increased crime and poverty.
Although I'm still not sure how you could possibly reason that forcing women to have more unwanted children would alleviate poverty. Are the UN's massive, decade's long efforts to alleviate poverty (among other things) in Africa by promoting the use of contraceptives completely misguided? What do you know that they don't?
[QUOTE=TH89;33926366]Haha yeah because attending a church whose pastor has said crazy shit is equivalent to personally signing a pledge to DO crazy shit.[/QUOTE]
that pastor didn't even say crazy shit.
[QUOTE=Medevilae;33926439]No, it is not the point of the government.
Your moral beliefs on what the government [I]should[/I] be doing are entirely different. It is not the constitutional role of the government to [U]provide[/U] for it's people.
The government is not a crutch; the government is in place as an institution for the protection of liberty and the upholding of justice to prevent others from infringing on your freedom. Constitutionally, that is the role of the government. Anything else is an additive.[/QUOTE]
I'd say raising taxes to make sure everyone can get an education gives the population more freedom than having very few extremely rich people have a lot of money in the bank.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;33926561]I'd say raising taxes to make sure everyone can get an education gives the population more freedom than having very few extremely rich people have a lot of money in the bank.[/QUOTE]
i don't understand how these two are mutually exclusive
im not even sure what you're getting at here honestly, at least with the rich people part
[QUOTE=Keys;33926282]
I am saying is that instead of looking at these "extremist views", which every candidate running always seems to have (Obama's Church pastor anyone?) [/QUOTE]
Explain?
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
Good public education is pretty much a requirement for any kind of economic theory that demands actors with half a brain
[QUOTE=thisispain;33909656]oh boy here comes reagan 2.0.[/QUOTE]
Damn, and me out of champagne!
[QUOTE=thisispain;33926521]that pastor didn't even say crazy shit.[/QUOTE]
he supported the NAACP which means he supported the white genocide
if the NAACP wasn't racist they'd be for all people not just coloured people, this is how we know they support said genoicde
NAAAP
NAACP wants to kill whites it's right in the name
[QUOTE=TH89;33926435]Actually looking back I think I thought you were talking about deaths from illegal abortions, not increased crime and poverty.
Although I'm still not sure how you could possibly reason that forcing women to have more unwanted children would alleviate poverty. Are the UN's massive, decade's long efforts to alleviate poverty (among other things) in Africa by promoting the use of contraceptives completely misguided? What do you know that they don't?[/QUOTE]
One person said that abortion is good for society because it makes it so there are less unwanted children around. I said that some people claim that, but there is little objective evidence that crime or poverty is reduced by abortion, which are the two greatest indications of an improvement for society when talking about abortion and unwanted children.
That doesn't mean that the opposite is true. I'm saying the legality of abortion has little(if any) long term effect on poverty or crime rates and so that is a flawed argument to use in favor of abortion.
[QUOTE=Capitulazyguy;33926743]Damn, and me out of champagne![/QUOTE]
you don't even live in the US, go back to masturbating on top of daily mail newspapers.
Read title as "Ron Paul signs Personhood" only, started laughing.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33926787]One person said that abortion is good for society because it makes it so there are less unwanted children around. I said that some people claim that, but there is little objective evidence that crime or poverty is reduced by abortion, which are the two greatest indications of an improvement for society when talking about abortion and unwanted children.
That doesn't mean that the opposite is true. I'm saying the legality of abortion has little(if any) long term effect on poverty or crime rates and so that is a flawed argument to use in favor of abortion.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how its a flawed argument, it doesn't take a genius to work out that a child is a gigantic financial burden, and for people who can't afford that burden life will get a lot harder. People who are doing it tough often resort to crime, and those already living on the edge do get plunged into poverty with extra costs. All those things are backed up by statistics as far as I am aware, and I would have thought it would be pretty obvious anyway. We aren't talking about middle class white Americans who get to live without their extra expensive electronic gadgets if they accidentally have an extra child here.
More on topic, I don't understand how someone who comes across as a seemingly smart and articulate guy has views like this. While I can understand someone having these views on abortion and still being somewhat intelligent, he apparently doesn't believe in evolution...retarded much?
You forget that Ron Paul is [I]really really really[/I] old
He was educated before they even really knew whether DNA was a double helix or a triple helix, or even something else altogether
[QUOTE=Stronts;33927264]I don't see how its a flawed argument, it doesn't take a genius to work out that a child is a gigantic financial burden, and for people who can't afford that burden life will get a lot harder. People who are doing it tough often resort to crime, and those already living on the edge do get plunged into poverty with extra costs. All those things are backed up by statistics as far as I am aware, and I would have thought it would be pretty obvious anyway. We aren't talking about middle class white Americans who get to live without their extra expensive electronic gadgets if they accidentally have an extra child here.
[/QUOTE]
Because what might seem true logically is not always so. Like I said, there is not a whole lot of substantial evidence that abortion rates have a meaningful impact on poverty and crime. Without evidence you shouldn't make an assumption on the effect of something.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33927514]Because what might seem true logically is not always so. Like I said, there is not a whole lot of substantial evidence that abortion rates have a meaningful impact on poverty and crime. Without evidence you shouldn't make an assumption on the effect of something.[/QUOTE]
Yep no evidence
[url]http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=abortion+crime&hl=en&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=on[/url]
Results 1 - 100 of about 87,800
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
of course we all know that tertiary education has a liberal bias
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
(because reality does too)
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33927514]Because what might seem true logically is not always so. Like I said, there is not a whole lot of substantial evidence that abortion rates have a meaningful impact on poverty and crime. Without evidence you shouldn't make an assumption on the effect of something.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3002498.html"]There's a proven correlation between unwanted pregnancies and poverty.[/URL]
[URL="http://sparky.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html"]There's a proven correlation between abortions and poverty.[/URL]
[URL="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.1976.tb00027.x/abstract"]Lastly, it's proven that poverty is a criminogenic factor.[/URL]
Clearly, increasing the number of poor people in an area would have no impact on its expenditures nor crime rates. Those babies would eat old tires and litter, and the neighborhood would shape up in no time.
In other news: you're still not actually [I]thinking[/I] about this, just talking.
Well, now that that's out of the way, I'm excited to see yawmwen's evidence that abortion has no effect on crime.
[QUOTE=TH89;33927778]Well, now that that's out of the way, I'm excited to see yawmwen's evidence that abortion has no effect on crime.[/QUOTE]
'People disagree that it does!'
[QUOTE=TH89;33927778]Well, now that that's out of the way, I'm excited to see yawmwen's evidence that abortion has no effect on crime.[/QUOTE]
He doesn't provide evidence, he'll go jump on some other issue that he thinks will go in favor of his views.
If it's against your religion or morals, then [B]don't have an abortion.[/B] Don't force your beliefs on people who don't agree with you. I have a problem with people getting abortions, that I will not deny. However, what I also cannot deny is that there are cases where an abortion may be needed. Such as the result of rape or a situation where giving birth could cause the mother to die. The idea of making abortion illegal is ludicrous and should be thrown out the window. I have specific views on abortion but I'll wait to make a separate post on them to avoid unnecessary Disagrees/Dumbs.
[QUOTE=Hidole555;33927888]If it's against your religion or morals, then [B]don't have an abortion.[/B] Don't force your beliefs on people who don't agree with you. I have a problem with people getting abortions, that I will not deny. However, what I also cannot deny is that there are cases where an abortion may be needed. Such as the result of rape or a situation where giving birth could cause the mother to die. The idea of making abortion illegal is ludicrous and should be thrown out the window. I have specific views on abortion but I'll wait to make a separate post on them to avoid unnecessary Disagrees/Dumbs.[/QUOTE]
But but but life is sacred and life starts at conception even though you don't have a functioning heart or brain or anything.
[QUOTE=Contag;33927664]Yep no evidence
[url]http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=abortion+crime&hl=en&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=on[/url]
Results 1 - 100 of about 87,800
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
of course we all know that tertiary education has a liberal bias
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
(because reality does too)[/QUOTE]
"State-level data are often used in the empirical research of both macroeconomists and microeconomists. Using data that follows states over time allows economists to hold constant a host of potentially confounding factors that might contaminate an assignment of cause and effect. A good example is a fascinating paper by Donohue and Levitt (2001, henceforth DL), which purports to show that hypothetical individuals resulting from aborted fetuses, had they been born and developed into youths, would have been more likely to commit crimes than youths resulting from fetuses carried to term. We revisit that paper, showing that the actual implementation of DL's statistical test in their paper differed from what was described. (Specifically, controls for state-year effects were left out of their regression model.) [b]We show that when DL's key test is run as described and augmented with state-level population data, evidence for higher per capita criminal propensities among the youths who would have developed, had they not been aborted as fetuses, vanishes. Two lessons for empirical researchers are, first, that controls may impact results in ways that are hard to predict, and second, that these controls are probably not powerful enough to compensate for the omission of a key variable in the regression model.[/b]"
[url]http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=866864[/url]
"This paper examines the relationship between the legalization of abortion and subsequent decreases in crime. In a current study, researchers estimate that the legalization of abortion explains over half of the recent decline in national crime rates. The association is identified by correlating changes in crime with changes in the abortion ratio weighted by the proportion of the criminal population exposed to legalized abortion. In this paper, I use an alternative identification strategy. I analyze changes in homicide and arrest rates among teens and young adults born before and after 1970 in states that legalized abortion prior to Roe v. Wade. I compare these changes with variation in homicide and arrest rates among cohorts from the same period but who were unexposed to legalized abortion. I find little evidence to support the claim that legalized abortion caused the reduction in crime. [b]I conclude that the association between abortion and crime is not causal, but most likely the result of confounding from unmeasured period effects such as changes in crack cocaine use and its spillover effects.[/b] "
[url]http://www.nber.org/papers/w8319[/url]
"Using data from England and Wales, we test the hypothesis that legalizing abortion reduces crime. The timing of changes in crime rates in aggregate data is generally inconsistent with this hypothesis. Using panel data on recorded crime from 1983 to 2001, we are able to replicate the negative association between abortion rates and reported crime that J. J. Donohue and S. D. Levitt found for the United States. However, this association breaks down under the scrutiny of robustness checks and is not present when we examine data on convictions broken down by age. [b]Overall, we find no clear, consistent relationship between abortion and crime in England and Wales.[/b]"
[url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0335.2007.00627.x/full[/url]
Yea, that sure is compelling evidence that abortion prevents crime.
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
In fact the first page of your google search has 2 things.
One are sources linking to Levitt.
The other are a large group of sources all independently refuting Levitt's claim.
I'm sorry I though there was no evidence either way?
I tend to regard papers by Americans authors commenting on the American legalization of abortion as a bit biased anyhow. American economists even more so. Levitt published a rebuttal to all those criticisms.
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
Also of course the source would link to Levitt, have you even written an academic paper before? You cite everyone. Bloody hell, have you even read one?
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
I love how you go from
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33927514]Without evidence you shouldn't make an assumption on the effect of something.[/QUOTE]
to posting about how all the evidence that exists is wrong
gee, that sounds familiar
oh wait
[QUOTE=Contag;33927820]'People disagree that it does!'[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Contag;33928197]I'm sorry I though there was no evidence either way?
I tend to regard papers by Americans authors commenting on the American legalization of abortion as a bit biased anyhow. American economists even more so. Levitt published a rebuttal to all those criticisms.
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
Also of course the source would link to Levitt, have you even written an academic paper before? You cite everyone. Bloody hell, have you even read one?
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
I love how you go from
to posting about how all the evidence that exists is wrong
gee, that sounds familiar
oh wait[/QUOTE]
Do you like keeping your head up your ass all day? It must make it a bit easier when you can just act stupid about every issue that comes your way instead of actually thinking about it.
I said there wasn't evidence to support that claim, you posted a google page full of results that said that there is no evidence of a causal relationship between abortion and crime.
You mean arguments [I]against that particular study?[/I]
Geez, I'm almost considering for Ron Paul because public education sure didn't help your reading skills.
[editline]28th December 2011[/editline]
If you think I "act stupid about every issue that comes my way" then either I'm wrong about everything, or I'm really right, all the time.
Thanks for the compliment.
[QUOTE=Miskav;33927932]But but but life is sacred and life starts at conception even though you don't have a functioning heart or brain or anything.[/QUOTE]
Both of those start functioning before birth, though.
[QUOTE=Contag;33928684]You mean arguments [I]against that particular study?[/I]
Geez, I'm almost considering for Ron Paul because public education sure didn't help your reading skills.[/quote]
Yea, they invalidated just about the only hypothesis that even makes a claim that abortion has a causal effect on crime rates. I said there wasn't enough evidence, and there isn't.
You are trying to argue semantics in a way that makes even me look like a mentally stable genius. That, or your brain has a short in it and you actually think that lack of evidence supporting your claim validates it.
[quote]If you think I "act stupid about every issue that comes my way" then either I'm wrong about everything, or I'm really right, all the time.
Thanks for the compliment.[/QUOTE]
You're welcome.
I haven't been following the thread all that closely so I apologize if I'm wrong but is yawmwen against abortion because [i]it doesn't reduce crime[/i]
That seems kind of odd
I'm against gay marriage because it doesn't reduce noise pollution
[QUOTE=Zeke129;33929601]I haven't been following the thread all that closely so I apologize if I'm wrong but is yawmwen against abortion because [i]it doesn't reduce crime[/i]
That seems kind of odd
I'm against gay marriage because it doesn't reduce noise pollution[/QUOTE]
No, I'm saying that using crime rates or poverty rates as an argument [i]in favor[/i] of abortion is flawed. I was replying to someone who was using that as an argument.
Here is the post I was quoting.
[QUOTE=notxmania;33923279]regardless of how you feel about the morality of abortion can't you realize that making it illegal generally leads to a lot more unwanted children, which has to proven to be [i]very, very bad[/i] for society in almost every way?[/QUOTE]
And this was my reply.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33923858]Well the societal effects of abortion aren't very well understood. Some think it might have a positive effect on crime and poverty while others would (rightfully) say there isn't enough evidence to make that claim.
However, I would also say that none of those things really matter that much on an individual level. I acknowledge that abortion is killing a human life, but I also acknowledge it is irresponsible and cruel in its own right to raise a child when you are not financially or emotionally ready for. So I feel fortunate that I am a man and will never have the possibility of making that decision for myself.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Glent;33928835]Both of those start functioning before birth, though.[/QUOTE]
Then wouldn't it make sense to make the point where those are both functioning the start of your "life"?
You know, when your heart is beating and your higher brain functions are in order?
Or is that too complicated all of a sudden.
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