You guys do realize we're only expected to take in about 10,000 refugees in 2016, right? And saying that we should "solve our own problems first", what exactly is the threshold for "solving our problems", because we're always going to have problems.
Accepting these refugees is not going to suddenly slow down the process of dealing with the internal problems out country deals with, so I find that reasoning weird.
[QUOTE=Conscript;49149085]Doesn't even matter:[/QUOTE]
laying direct blame on the US for the current situation (war with ISIS or w/e) is outright misinformation, and actually matters a lot
[quote]Hey guys ISIS and Al Qaeda can be traced back to that international mujahideen stoked and coordinated by our allies in places like Pakistan and Sunni monarchies and supplied by us. Fucking russians.[/quote]
yep we sure as shit coordinated and armed mujahideen groups to fight another proxy war, yet another thing i never disputed, and never condoned
however, the two specific organizations, al-qaeda and isis, never would have formed in the first place if not for the soviet-afghan war
[quote]Fucking russians[/quote]
as much as your strawman of me is trying to make it seem otherwise, i never once directed any ill-will to russia
you can blame someone for past blunders but not hate them for it who woulda thought
I don't even know what you are arguing. Yea I guess Arab nationalism and soviet socialism 'created' Islamism by trying to bring regions into modernity, and this threatened the interests of ruling powers and cultural reactionaries that be.
However...I don't know about you, but that makes me wish for the victory of Arab nationalism and socialism over Islamism and those who (fucking repeatedly) use it as [url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq]a geopolitical weapon[/url] and thus enabled it.
Not, you know, blame one of the Islamists' biggest enemies. It's exactly like blaming communism for being so scary and threatening that fascism came to be, with the argument being all fascist militias (e.g. SA and blackshirts) got their start beating up workers and leftists.
But seriously, we're basically seeing the real destruction of the Arab nation-states in favor of tribalism, sectarianism, and the ummah. All you can think of to blame is the the USSR and the nationalism/socialism it sponsored to the detriment of the US, reactionary petro-arab princes and imams, and Israel & Turkey, who either cynically used Islamic conservatives and jihadists or are such.
[QUOTE=Trekintosh;49147600]Good. We're laughably incapable of dealing with our own poor and homeless. What are we supposed to do with Syria's?[/QUOTE]
Homeless people are different than refugees. Refugees are most often educated and motivated to make a positive life for themselves after being displaced - homeless disproportionately have mental illnesses and are forced to commit crime to survive, not to mention discriminatory laws that all but prevent them from having any upward mobility. This is not what refugees with a proper system of integration and support will do.
But if america takes in syrian refugees, where are the european refugees supposed to go when europe goes to shit? come on guys think of the future!
On a serious note I'd rather we spent money creating stable livable zones people could flee to in the middle east than taking them all in here all the way across the globe.
And if your argument is that people would just sneak into the zones and cause chaos there, how do you expect to stop that from being true in the refugee crisis?
[QUOTE=Conscript;49149184]I don't even know what you are arguing. Yea I guess Arab nationalism and soviet socialism 'created' Islamism by trying to bring regions into modernity, and this threatened the interests of ruling powers and cultural reactionaries that be.
However...I don't know about you, but that makes me wish for the victory of Arab nationalism and socialism over Islamism and those who (fucking repeatedly) use it as [url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq]a geopolitical weapon[/url] and thus enabled it.
Not, you know, blame one of the Islamists' biggest enemies. It's exactly like blaming communism for being so scary and threatening that fascism came to be, with the argument being all fascist militias (e.g. SA and blackshirts) got their start beating up workers and leftists.
But seriously, we're basically seeing the real destruction of the Arab nation-states in favor of tribalism, sectarianism, and the ummah. All you can think of to blame is the the USSR and the nationalism/socialism it sponsored to the detriment of the US, reactionary petro-arab princes and imams, and Israel & Turkey, who either cynically used Islamic conservatives and jihadists or are such.[/QUOTE]dude we've been agreeing this whole fucking time
i was originally trying to correct rumbler, who stated [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=49148831#post49148831"]here[/URL] that the US was directly responsible for the creation of al-qaeda and isis, and he tried to twist my words into making it seem like i absolve the US of ANY wrongdoing in the middle east, which i fucking don't, i dislike the US for that shit just as much as anyone, but i choose to dislike them for the actions of which they are directly to blame, instead of grabbing any randomass problem in the middle east and just going "lol thx amerifats :-)" like scot and rumbler
[editline]19th November 2015[/editline]
god damn
So...who do you actually blame for the creation of ISIS and Al Qaeda? What does the fact the two directly trace back to the soviet-afghan war change? Especially if we were involved then too.
I guess we're just confused, but yea it did look like you were absolving the US in order to blame assad and the soviets, who were more 'directly' to blame...because they were modernists that sparked a reaction we were deeply entangled in.
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49148908][b]2. America didn't meddle in Syrian coups in 1949?[/b][/QUOTE]
Are you seriously blaming Syria's troubles in 2015 on actions that took place 66 years ago???
Conscript you sound like a broken record player
Stop putting words in his mouth
[QUOTE=Rumbler;49148803]Everyone in this thread is a filthy dirty xenophobe racist for wanting to divert your economic and social resources to your own people first. You will bow down and accept people with a totally different culture into your country furthering the already problematic integration that has been 'reached' during the last 30-40 years or else you are a no-good dirty filthy racist. You think those lives are worth less than an Americans?! Wow really.
Apparently, if you ask BDA.[/QUOTE]
you got banned for posting a thread using completely false information. that in of itself is not really bad, everyone makes mistakes (I used bad sources several times too) but you kept on insisting that you were right in that case, despite other proving you wrong several times.
On topic: Syria was not one groups fault solely. It was politically unstable, they were in a bloody civil war (with the government using chemical weapons on its own people), then ISIS shows up, etc etc.
I believe other countries should help with what they can handle. Some countries in Europe have taken way too many refugees, yes, but you can't say the US can't handle 10,000. I understand we can't take on too many, not with all the problems we have, but we should help out.
[QUOTE=Ridge;49149532]Are you seriously blaming Syria's troubles in 2015 on actions that took place 66 years ago???[/QUOTE]
I really don't think it's far fetched to believe that a Military coup that occurred 66 years ago has a partial effect on the current situation that Syria is in now.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49150476]I really don't think it's far fetched to believe that a Military coup that occurred 66 years ago has a partial effect on the current situation that Syria is in now.[/QUOTE]
Considering that the government installed by that coup no longer exists, I disagree. By that logic, this is all the fault of England and France for carving up the Ottoman empire back in 1918.
[QUOTE=Conscript;49149346]So...who do you actually blame for the creation of ISIS and Al Qaeda?[/QUOTE]
creation? the soviet union, 100%
the US directly averted their destruction and ultimately strengthened them immensely by providing logistics and supplies, but the organizations wouldn't have been created in the first place if not for the soviet union
if you were to have asked me which of the two super powers is to blame for the [I]current situation, [/I]then i would have said both, evenly
[quote]What does the fact the two directly trace back to the soviet-afghan war change? Especially if we were involved then too.[/quote]
misinformation, in any capacity, should be destroyed
[quote]I guess we're just confused, but yea it did look like you were absolving the US in order to blame assad and the soviets, who were more 'directly' to blame...[/quote]
still never said that
[quote]because they were modernists that sparked a reaction we were deeply entangled in.[/quote]
too political
my point was and nominally still is a pedantic one about semantics, but one i still think is necessary to bring up in order to avoid disseminating even more false information about who did what and when in the middle east
So it seems the solution to the refugee crisis is... no countries should take any refugees at all.
Okay.
So... what about those refugees?
[QUOTE=Scot;49148103]That's so america, bomb countries to oblivion then turn away the refugees created[/QUOTE]
Yes we started the civil war in Syria, not Assad.
Oh wait.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49150476]I really don't think it's far fetched to believe that a Military coup that occurred 66 years ago has a partial effect on the current situation that Syria is in now.[/QUOTE]
So we assisted in a revolution in the past and it went badly, so we're getting shit for it. We did not assist in a revolution and it went badly, we're still getting shit for it. If we had assisted in the revolution and it went badly, we would get shit for it then too. We cannot win.
[editline]20th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ridge;49150508]Considering that the government installed by that coup no longer exists, I disagree. By that logic, this is all the fault of England and France for carving up the Ottoman empire back in 1918.[/QUOTE]
That's not an uncommon opinion, the problem with that is you can't exactly undo that. Nothing short of full-on annexing the whole place and then splitting it up along religious and ethnic borders, and that'd only be the start.
[QUOTE=Trekintosh;49147600]Good. We're laughably incapable of dealing with our own poor and homeless. What are we supposed to do with Syria's?[/QUOTE]
Believe me, they are much better off living in a tent camp somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Texas then they are living anywhere close to Syria.
[QUOTE=Incoming.;49147645]
The United States already has crime problems, food and infrastructure issues, we don't need this.
[/QUOTE]
So does every country in the world, you think you have it worse than Turkey or Greece?. USA also needs to take its responsibility. You have a massive population, nobody would even notice if you where to take in 50K refugees.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;49149115]You guys do realize we're only expected to take in about 10,000 refugees in 2016, right? And saying that we should "solve our own problems first", what exactly is the threshold for "solving our problems", because we're always going to have problems.
Accepting these refugees is not going to suddenly slow down the process of dealing with the internal problems out country deals with, so I find that reasoning weird.[/QUOTE]
Yup and I read that there's a 18 month background check on each of them.
Meanwhile Sweden is taking in 100,000+ refugees, and Lebanon and Turkey handling almost 5 million refugees alone.
Sigh....
The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running
[QUOTE=Trogdon;49147736]That over 750,000 refugees have been accepted into the U.S. post 9/11 and not a single one has been charged with domestic terrorism??[/QUOTE]
i feel like theres an intentional disconnect here. the terrorists in the paris attack had passports, they werent refugees. There are other good reasons why not to take them regardless of the insignificant possibility of one of them being a terrorist. People like to pretend cultures arent significant when it comes to disagreements and societal problems but vital in other cases, but obviously, neither of these are true. Cultures can have good elements and bad elements, we certainly have bad shit in ours. The culture of syria is see uncovored western women as whores and that results in the massive amounts of rape. Do you want to haphazardly let that in without being prepared with enough food, money, and education programs? its been proven not to go well.
If i had my way we'd have a basic universal income and our poor would be extremely well taken care of, then we could worry about adapting refugees into our society properly, but its not easy. Also realize that lots of politicians are just taking advantage of a complex situation to get votes and dont really have as good a reason as this.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49149266]
On a serious note I'd rather we spent money creating stable livable zones people could flee to in the middle east than taking them all in here all the way across the globe.
[/QUOTE]
Europe is already sending millions to Egypt, Turkey and Jordan to cover the cost of keeping the refugees there. And the very large portion of the refugees stay there.
The ammount of people traveling to Europe is really small in comparison.
[QUOTE=KennethKaniff;49147805][video=youtube;muw22wTePqQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muw22wTePqQ[/video]
The West can't provide Western quality of life to everybody.[/QUOTE]
Seriously, do you get your information from guys like this? He shows that there is too much immigration by making his own graph so high that even he cannot reach it. Look I cannot even reach the graph we have too many refugees. What????
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49150912]The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running[/QUOTE]
Yes and the Victims in the Bataclan should have stormed the attackers while they where shooting at the with AK47's instead of running away? Can you not understand that some people just want to live their lives in peace and dont want to die fighting for a country they hate in the first place? Are you also blind to the fact that the big Kurdisch/Peshmerga militia's are exactly local men fighting against ISI in their own country?
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;49147658]Seriously guys, isn't USA like, the most wealthy, powerful country on the planet? Why should it all fall to Turkey and Lebenon, countries that haven't done shit to the region and haven't been bombing the fuck out of it for the last 10 years or so.[/QUOTE]
USA houses the most wealthy, powerful people on the planet. USA as a nation however is a smoldering shithole compared to the rest of the western world.
Kicking out Tony was a mistake. He had our future in mind in the midst of this immigration crisis.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49150912]The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running[/QUOTE]
As a man I find this offensive. If anything, these men are smart, not fighting for the shithole they're emigrating from.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;49147853]Tamerlan entered the US in 2002 as an asylee. He then became radicalized [I]within the US[/I] in 2008. His brother entered in 2007, US citizen in 2012, was again radicalized within the US.
Neither were terrorists when they entered. Both became terrorists in the US.[/QUOTE]
Cool, sounds really awesome you can totally disregard the fact that they were obviously radicalized by certain factors growing up related to their background.
Doesn't matter when it happens with when they get radicalized, if anything the fact they became radical later even though they lived for years in America suggests that integration failed.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;49151174]As a man I find this offensive. If anything, these men are smart, not fighting for the shithole they're emigrating from.[/QUOTE]
Well its either fight for a secular dictatorship or an Islamic caliphate. The democracy ship sailed away a long time ago.
Even then a democracy would have probably ended in Islamists taking power.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49150912]The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running[/QUOTE]
Completely rational expectations right here, for people to fight to the death.
Haha look at that guy what a coward, he rather takes a dingy across mediterranean sea then getting burned alive on international television.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49150912]The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running[/QUOTE]
How much do you people wanna bet this machoguy would worm his way to canada the second the civil war started.
[QUOTE=St33m;49151262]How much do you people wanna bet this machoguy would worm his way to canada the second the civil war started.[/QUOTE]
I'll take 'almost immediately' for 500, Jim.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49150912]The majority of these refugees are men. Not women and children and elderly. They should be over there fighting for their country, not running[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, have you actually seen what happens in Syria? Does anyone praising this suspension as some brave move actually realize that the people who are refugees are fleeing from genocide and old school brutal slavery? Go and fight IS and Assad yourself, maybe if you get captured you'll understand why people are running away. But of course, Syrian men are just mindless ungrateful cowards that should be thrown at the enemies without experience, weapons or training. That sounds fucking fantastic.
What happened to facepunch? About a year ago people would be tearing into this shit, is it the anti-Political correctness shit translated into anti-humanitarianism?
Also, deal with our own problems before we deal with others is the most blind attitude. If America was going to deal with homelessness and extreme poverty it would have done it by now, the homeless vets and Americans is just a smoke screen and flimsy justification for not stepping in and fulfilling their international role if it should even possibly negatively affect America. But fuck Syrians right, they're not Americans.
Oh, and fun fact : Most, if not all (There's still a lack of information or evidence on the last attacker, the rest were living in Belgium or France for a long time) of the Paris attackers were radicalized at home or after short term travel and didn't enter through the refugee wave. So maybe don't blame terror attacks on some fifth column moving within refugee waves.
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