Transgender teen leaves note on tumblr blaming Christian parents for suicide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=you]No. [B]The correct response to bigotry is complete and total silence. They don't exist. Their opinions don't exist. [/B] Reason and logic do not work on someone who's hating on X for no real reason. Bigotry is, by definition, an irrational frame of mind. You cannot rationalize with the irrational, they just block it out. [B] So give them the cold shoulder instead.[/B][/QUOTE] ???? seems like apathy to me buddy. people with hurtful opinions exist and just ignoring them does nothing to solve the issue

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826529]According to the totally objective viewpoint of a psychologically unstable child who admitted to having a "fuck you" attitude towards their parents? I think it's at least reasonable to wait before assuming the parents were so terrible.[/QUOTE] Because a parent who refuses, and continues to refuse to even acknowledge their daughter properly is likely to tell the truth? You don't have a clue about how hard trans life can be, especially with parents like hers. Of course she had a "fuck you" attitude.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826485]They took the child to a therapist, how is that not dealing with it? I doubt they sought out psychological help for their child out of malice. Also instead of being ignorant, it's perfectly possible they don't think your position is the right one.[/QUOTE] did you miss the "conversion therapy" part or what

Its good to see at the end of the day, a majority of the people here are good brains and strong hearts. Also, since there were numerous posts on the subject, do not go harass the parents, its not worth it and its wrong anyways.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826540]Because a parent who refuses, and continues to refuse to even acknowledge their daughter properly is likely to tell the truth?[/QUOTE] Just because someone does not have the same views on sex as you do does not make them any more likely to lie, she's saying what she thinks is right. [QUOTE]You don't have a clue about how hard trans life can be, especially with parents like hers. Of course she had a "fuck you" attitude.[/QUOTE] And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly ideologically driven rebellious teenager too.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826610]Just because someone does not have the same views on sex as you do does not make them any more likely to lie, she's saying what she thinks is right. And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly ideologically driven rebellious teenager too.[/QUOTE] suffering from gender disphoria isn't ideological drive

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826610]Just because someone does not have the same views on sex as you do does not make them any more likely to lie, she's saying what she thinks is right.[/QUOTE] They were ashamed and embarrassed of having a trans child. That tarnishes their reputation abit in terms of what they might do because of that shame. Sure, and I've never expressed the opinion she's evil, just objectively hurtful and destructive to her child. Evil? No. But that doesn't change the damages she wrought. [QUOTE]And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly ideologically driven rebellious teenager too.[/QUOTE] See? You clearly don't even respect trans people at the core of this if you link being trans to a simple "teenage rebellious" phase type bullshit argument. Dealing with a person who knows who they are from a young age, and feels like they are in the wrong body, from a young age, is vastly, mind boggingly different from "teenage rebellion". Dealing with a person like that with nothing but disrespect and isolation and punishment is going to hurt that person. Best intentions? Sure, but it should be pretty obvious what good treatment of your child is, and religion in this case here specifically, got in the way of that in a major way, the abuse I'm sure you don't approve of, but I wouldn't be wrong in imagining you think that trans people are wrong in their impressions and understandings of themselves, and thus the people who are just trying to help them on the "right path" aren't capable of harm

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826610]Just because someone does not have the same views on sex as you do does not make them any more likely to lie, she's saying what she thinks is right. [B]And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly ideologically driven rebellious teenager too[/B].[/QUOTE] being trans isn't a phase that you stop in 6 months or so, it's who you are because you are born with it

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826540]Because a parent who refuses, and continues to refuse to even acknowledge their daughter properly is likely to tell the truth? You don't have a clue about how hard trans life can be, especially with parents like hers. Of course she had a "fuck you" attitude.[/QUOTE] And here HumanAbyss dances around the fact that he's taking the word of someone who literally forced another person to kill them at face value.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826610]Just because someone does not have the same views on sex as you do does not make them any more likely to lie, she's saying what she thinks is right. And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly [B]ideologically driven[/B] rebellious teenager too.[/QUOTE] The brains of trans people are physically more similar to the gender they identify as. Calling transgenderism "Ideologically driven" is absolutely insane and makes as much sense as saying gay people are an ideology.

wow i don't know how many other posts there are related to this so sorry if i missed any important ones, but something tells me the parents being christian is a big part of it. i'm not even trying to discriminate i know some good christian people that're disgusted by this sort of thing but most of christianity is like "we accept everyone who's 'normal'" and it's just fucking terrible now that i got that out of the way, props to the ones supportive around this sort of thing (supportive of the teen not the parents) because this is appalling

i guess one thing you could argue is that the parents themselves were ignorant due to ideology but i think it's the same thing as when people decide to faith heal their children which results in their deaths. ignorance is no excuse for negligent parenting especially when they could have gotten easily informed if they decided to take their child to a real psychiatrist

the parents fucked up and killed their child through neglect but from what i can see it was out of ignorance, not out of malice. and that does matter.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826610] And I'm sure neither of us knows what it's like to deal with a strongly ideologically driven rebellious teenager too.[/QUOTE] Are you implying her parents aren't ideologically driven? Again ignoring that trans isnt an ideology.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826637]They were ashamed and embarrassed of having a trans child. That tarnishes their reputation abit in terms of what they might do because of that shame.[/QUOTE] Again according to the child, it's as if you think that a suicidal person, an adolescent no less, is going to be giving accurate depictions of the world around them. I'm not claiming the parents were saints in the matter, but you are simply jumping to conclusions. [QUOTE]See? You clearly don't even respect trans people at the core of this if you link being trans to a simple "teenage rebellious" phase type bullshit argument. Dealing with a person who knows who they are from a young age, and feels like they are in the wrong body, from a young age, is vastly, mind boggingly different from "teenage rebellion". Dealing with a person like that with nothing but disrespect and isolation and punishment is going to hurt that person. Best intentions? Sure, but it should be pretty obvious what good treatment of your child is, and religion in this case here specifically, got in the way of that in a major way, the abuse I'm sure you don't approve of, but I wouldn't be wrong in imagining you think that trans people are wrong in their impressions and understandings of themselves, and thus the people who are just trying to help them on the "right path" aren't capable of harm[/QUOTE] As if anyone has a good idea of who they are, [URL=http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jc.2009-0345]especially at a young age (section 1.2)[/URL]. I never claimed that was the rebellion though, I'm referring to how the child ate up secular views on sexuality and began rebelling against their parents' advice because of it. Also it seems that it is not so obvious what good treatment of your child is in this case as we are both vehemently opposed to each other's opinions on it. I think everyone's capable of harm, especially when it comes to things we don't understand, in this case we can only hope to minimize harm, which I don't think your position is doing.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]Again according to the child, it's as if you think that a suicidal person, an adolescent no less, is going to be giving accurate depictions of the world around them. I'm not claiming the parents were saints in the matter, but you are simply jumping to conclusions. [/QUOTE] What makes you believe the parents over the child? [quote]As if anyone has a good idea of who they are, [URL="http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jc.2009-0345"]especially at a young age (section 1.2)[/URL]. I never claimed that was the rebellion though, I'm referring to how the child ate up secular views on sexuality and began rebelling against their parents' advice because of it.[/quote] You're showing quite the theistic bias there. [quote] Also it seems that it is not so obvious what good treatment of your child is in this case as we are both vehemently opposed to each other's opinions on it. I think everyone's capable of harm, especially when it comes to things we don't understand, in this case we can only hope to minimize harm, which I don't think your position is doing.[/quote] Congratulations you just described the very reason as to why YOU shouldn't post about things you quite obviously know very little about

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826485]They took the child to a therapist, how is that not dealing with it? I doubt they sought out psychological help for their child out of malice.[/quote] [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826485]Also instead of being ignorant, it's perfectly possible they don't think your position is the right one.[/QUOTE] They specifically sought out therapists who would basically preach the bible at the kid rather than properly deal with them. [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826485]Also instead of being ignorant, it's perfectly possible they don't think your position is the right one.[/QUOTE] As in, they think "being trans is terrible and harmful and you'll be smited by god and sentenced to hell"? Like I said. Ignorant. [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826529]According to the totally objective viewpoint of a psychologically unstable child who admitted to having a "fuck you" attitude towards their parents? I think it's at least reasonable to wait before assuming the parents were so terrible.[/QUOTE] The kid developed the "fuck you" attitude in response to their parents ignoring them for so long. It didn't come out of nowhere.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;46826773]What makes you believe the parents over the child?[/QUOTE] Well that's kind of how our justice system has to work.

[QUOTE=geel9;46826798]Well that's kind of how our justice system has to work.[/QUOTE] Its a shame I wasn't talking to the US justice system then.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46826816]It's true though. God [I]Doesn't[/I] make mistakes. Most people saying this refuse to realize just how wide reaching this statement is. If your kid is gay/lesbian/trans, it wasn't some mistake, you're not being punished, that's literally just exactly how god [I]wanted[/I] them. And because that's just how God wanted them to start out, no one should hate them. If you even remotely claim to be a Christian at least, you can't hate any form of human being and at the same time proclaim that you're still a Christian.[/QUOTE] if god exists. but i'm not about to spark any argument on that because people should believe what they want to believe most christians need to think like this because it's what their holy book preaches, but instead they reject what they don't consider normal and that causes things like this to happen

[QUOTE=Paramud;46826650]And here HumanAbyss dances around the fact that he's taking the word of someone who literally forced another person to kill them at face value.[/QUOTE] Okay. So, she's dead. Her parents have lied about her. And mistreated her. Who are you taking at face value here?

[QUOTE=Paramud;46826650]And here HumanAbyss dances around the fact that he's taking the word of someone who literally forced another person to kill them at face value.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Who's he taking at face value?

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]I think everyone's capable of harm, especially when it comes to things we don't understand, in this case we can only hope to minimize harm, [B]which I don't think your position is doing.[/B][/QUOTE] Says the one ignorant of how treatment for transgender people works and what is best for them.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;46826812]Its a shame I wasn't talking to the US justice system then.[/QUOTE] oh sorry, i assumed you cared about treating human beings with the base level of respect and dignity that is standard in our society as opposed to taking everything in a suicide note as 100% true with no evidence to back it up

-snip wrong thread-

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826828]Okay. So, she's dead. Her parents have lied about her. And mistreated her. Who are you taking at face value here?[/QUOTE] You're taking those "facts" that you just stated at face value. You can't actually prove any of that.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]As if anyone has a good idea of who they are, [URL=http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jc.2009-0345]especially at a young age (section 1.2)[/URL].[/quote] Your source suggests using puberty blockers until 16, letting them decide then whether to start hormonal therapy or not, because they should know by that age. guess how old the kid was [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]I never claimed that was the rebellion though, I'm referring to how the child ate up secular views on sexuality and began rebelling against their parents' advice because of it.[/quote] I don't think "ate up" has the right connotation for being told "there are other people like you, you're okay, you're not a monster for being different". especially since the kid already held that feeling for a long time Learning that there were other people like them didn't create their 'view', it only confirmed that they weren't alone. [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]Also it seems that it is not so obvious what good treatment of your child is in this case as we are both vehemently opposed to each other's opinions on it. I think everyone's capable of harm, especially when it comes to things we don't understand, in this case we can only hope to minimize harm, which I don't think your position is doing.[/QUOTE] Well, if you want to minimize harm (which is the way to go), then the best way is to let the kid transition. At [I]best[/I], the parents were ignorant and didn't know that. What they should have done was looked up resources on transsexuality from people who have actually studied it. We know way more about countless things now than we did 2000 years ago. However, it's more likely that they were more concerned about how they looked to their peers rather than the health of their child. Or at least they held peer pressure to be equal to said health.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826759]Again according to the child, it's as if you think that a suicidal person, an adolescent no less, is going to be giving accurate depictions of the world around them. I'm not claiming the parents were saints in the matter, but you are simply jumping to conclusions.[/QUOTE] Sure, she probably wouldn't give the most accurate depictions, but she would also be the only person to understand how she felt and why she felt that, but no, we can't acknowledge that because then you'd not have an argument? [QUOTE]As if anyone has a good idea of who they are, [URL=http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jc.2009-0345]especially at a young age (section 1.2)[/URL]. I never claimed that was the rebellion though, I'm referring to how the child ate up secular views on sexuality and began rebelling against their parents' advice because of it. [/QUOTE] Yeah. Did you fucking read that? "Prepubatal". Yet, we have a great deal of evidence from opposing studies that acknowledge that this studies recommendation of not going through HRT too young, we know that people have a better idea of who they are at younger ages than we realized. Even in the case of your study being "The" go to study, which it is not, it doesn't say that transitioning is wrong. [QUOTE]Also it seems that it is not so obvious what good treatment of your child is in this case as we are both vehemently opposed to each other's opinions on it. I think everyone's capable of harm, especially when it comes to things we don't understand, in this case we can only hope to minimize harm, which I don't think your position is doing.[/QUOTE] Yes, you would force your son or daughter to go through life as you saw fit because you know who they are better than they ever could, and ever will, and who cares if it's a life long phase that they might suffer through, they're really what you say they are. I think your position drives people to suicide and self harm and self hatred and deep seated self esteem issues. I think your position would happily see ever trans individual live, and die sad, empty, and alone if they can't recant their nature and go the way you see fit. I think my position on this issue doesn't harm someone as I'm not going to try and run someones life for them, nor dictate their best courses of actions for them. As you would do.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46826845]Most Christians constantly forget the whole "don't have to follow the old testimate" thing. Most Christians don't know their faith at all. I feel as a whole the church has strayed too far from what Christ actually taught, and instead have gotten hung up on a bunch of old shit that doesn't actually apply to Christians in the first place.[/QUOTE] While it's not that simple, most Christians don't base their values on old testament law regardless, even if they aren't aware of it. Just because God does not make mistakes does not mean we are perfect, the Christian perspective on these matters is that our sinful natures elicit themselves differently in our respective behaviours

[QUOTE=Last or First;46826859] However, it's more likely that they were more concerned about how they looked to their peers rather than the health of their child. Or at least they held peer pressure to be equal to said health.[/QUOTE] Having actually had Christian parents I would argue that it's far more likely that they believed that their 16 year old son is going through puberty and is in a very confused state right now mentally and so needed a therapist. However, their church has brainwashed them to the point where they can only trust other Christians and so they send their son to the best of the best -- a Christian therapist so they can fix him.