Transgender teen leaves note on tumblr blaming Christian parents for suicide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46826845]Most Christians constantly forget the whole "don't have to follow the old testimate" thing. Most Christians don't know their faith at all. I feel as a whole the church has strayed too far from what Christ actually taught, and instead have gotten hung up on a bunch of old shit that doesn't actually apply to Christians in the first place.[/QUOTE] this is true on too many levels, one of my friends in my neighborhood is gay and every time he goes down the sidewalk everyone on their porch or some shit stops their conversations and just kinda stare with bitter contempt i wish i was lying but i'm not (important to mention that the same people who stop and stare are the same people with some cheap Jesus decal on their door or car)

[QUOTE=geel9;46826850]You're taking those "facts" that you just stated at face value. You can't actually prove any of that.[/QUOTE] Okay, your point? I'm taking it at face value until something better can be offered. I would believe a kid going through hell in a domestic situation before I would believe their parents. I've had friends with abusive parents, I've seen abusive adults, and I think just because someone's a parent, doesn't make them more credible than their teenage daughter or son that may or may not have killed themselves. To disregard a young person for being young and tortured is pretty fucking pathetic. [editline]30th December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826869]While it's not that simple, most Christians don't base their values on old testament law regardless, even if they aren't aware of it. Just because God does not make mistakes does not mean we are perfect, the Christian perspective on these matters is that our sinful natures elicit themselves differently in our respective behaviours[/QUOTE] I would rather have a christian like ilikecorn than you around because at least he's not going to harm people with ignorance and arrogance.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826877]Okay, your point? I'm taking it at face value until something better can be offered. I would believe a kid going through hell in a domestic situation before I would believe their parents. I've had friends with abusive parents, I've seen abusive adults, and I think just because someone's a parent, doesn't make them more credible than their teenage daughter or son that may or may not have killed themselves. To disregard a young person for being young and tortured is pretty fucking pathetic. [editline]30th December 2014[/editline] I would rather have a christian like ilikecorn than you around because at least he's not going to harm people with ignorance and arrogance.[/QUOTE] That is literally the opposite of what you should do. That is literally guilty until proven innocent. The fuck?

This whole thing is pretty bad i recently came out to my mom as a MTF a week ago, she didn't like it alot because she felt like it was a "phase" and that it was against the bible (which i really don't believe). despite her opinions on the matter, my mom still loves me alot and doesn't despise me for any reason. i don't think that will change. i wish that the same happened to Leelah. I have been christian my entire life and still will be one because from what i read in the bible, god doesn't really care about what you look like, he cares about your actions and what is in your heart (Galatians 3:26-29, 1 Samuel 16:7 are some examples). God loves all his creations equally and if you treat people right and with love/respect, then god will love you back. this whole suicide is very upsetting, because Christians should know better than to reject stuff like this and hate on a loved one because you disagree with what they wanna become. I hope Leelah had a great life while it lasted and i hope her friends aren't taking it too hard. At the same time, i hope no one casts threats onto the parents that raised Leelah, because her parents are people too and despite them being complete idiots when it comes to this they don't deserve the harassment (Matthew 5:44) . someone needs to teach them and help them understand what their kid was going through, otherwise you will affirm their beliefs that trans people are horrible due to the volume of threats they receive. btw [QUOTE=Moustacheman;46823864]I like to quote 1 Timothy 5:8 to any Christian who disowns a family member for being transgender/gay/whatever.[/QUOTE] this is a cool bible verse, thanks. ill keep it for future use just incase.

I have no problem with you placing more trust in a kid who has abusive parents but unfortunately you do not actually know that this kid had abusive parents. Do you see the issue

[QUOTE=geel9;46826885]That is literally the opposite of what you should do. That is literally guilty until proven innocent. The fuck?[/QUOTE] It isn't because this isn't a court of law nor am I pretending to be judge or jury. I'm watching from the sidelines. From what I can tell, a couples kid killed themselves because the parents refused to deviate from their religious principles causing irreparable harm to the kid. YOu said yourself having christian parents, the most likely thing those parents would do is to trust a christian therapist over an outside one. Guess what a christian therapist is literally not in anyway capable of handling? Trans issues. [editline]30th December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;46826891]I have no problem with you placing more trust in a kid who has abusive parents but unfortunately you do not actually know that this kid had abusive parents. Do you see the issue[/QUOTE] The issue is that dismissing a kids insistence that they're trans for well over two years is a form of abuse. The issue is the kid lived in a clearly very religious household that buckled down on american style christianity which doesn't in anyway support trans people by and large. They showed lack of respect in all of their handlings of this, so what evidence do you have that they were respectful of their child?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826896]It isn't because this isn't a court of law nor am I pretending to be judge or jury. I'm watching from the sidelines. From what I can tell, a couples kid killed themselves because the parents refused to deviate from their religious principles causing irreparable harm to the kid. YOu said yourself having christian parents, the most likely thing those parents would do is to trust a christian therapist over an outside one. Guess what a christian therapist is literally not in anyway capable of handling? Trans issues.[/QUOTE] Yeah and I already told you that the parents likely believed that their child was merely suffering from developmental issues. Trans acceptance isn't exactly something they would have been taught at a young age and now that they're older they're completely enveloped in this Christian world; it makes sense that they don't exactly understand that gender dysphoria is a real issue. Ignorance is not the same nor nearly as bad as malevolence. They were doing what they thought would help their child most; they were just wrong about it.

[QUOTE=geel9;46826912]Yeah and I already told you that the parents likely believed that their child was merely suffering from developmental issues. Trans acceptance isn't exactly something they would have been taught at a young age and now that they're older they're completely enveloped in this Christian world; it makes sense that they don't exactly understand that gender dysphoria is a real issue. Ignorance is not the same nor nearly as bad as malevolence. They were doing what they thought would help their child most; they were just wrong about it.[/QUOTE] What i'm baffled by is why people keep acting like i've even ONCE said they were evil. I have not. I have said they were harmful. I have said they did damages. I have said they were ignorant. Disrespectful. Not evil. Not malevolent. So why exactly, are you saying that I am saying this?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826862]Sure, she probably wouldn't give the most accurate depictions, but she would also be the only person to understand how she felt and why she felt that, but no, we can't acknowledge that because then you'd not have an argument?[/QUOTE] We can't acknowledge only what she's said because it is not the most accurate depiction of what's going on. [QUOTE]Yeah. Did you fucking read that? "Prepubatal".[/QUOTE] I did, and I was responding to this: [QUOTE]Dealing with a person who knows who they are from a young age, and feels like they are in the wrong body, from a young age...[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Yet, we have a great deal of evidence from opposing studies that acknowledge that this studies recommendation of not going through HRT too young, we know that people have a better idea of who they are at younger ages than we realized. Even in the case of your study being "The" go to study, which it is not, it doesn't say that transitioning is wrong.[/QUOTE] Can I see a go-to study (not an article about it)? [QUOTE]Yes, you would force your son or daughter to go through life as you saw fit because you know who they are better than they ever could, and ever will, and who cares if it's a life long phase that they might suffer through, they're really what you say they are.[/QUOTE] I would have far more life experience of life than them, especially in their earlier years, so I would certainly rely more on what my experience has taught me to be right than theirs. In their older years as they start developing more of a personality I would distance my influence however, respecting their adult-hood.

this would be the time for an internet shitstorm to be, well not necessarily okay, but more warranted. this year I've seen people crucified online for doing shit like wearing a shirt with booby girls on it. I wonder what these two people are going to get.

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826927]We can't acknowledge only what she's said because it is not the most accurate depiction of what's going on. [/QUOTE] So by definition then, we should take the parents at their every word? [QUOTE]I did, and I was responding to this: Can I see a go-to study (not an article about it)? [/QUOTE] I don't believe that science really has "go to" articles. I'm refering more to the way you like to slap an article that has a couple of findings that you like, and go "Hey, look at me, i'm so well supported in this argument of bigotry. [QUOTE]I would have far more life experience of life than them, especially in their earlier years, so I would certainly rely more on what my experience has taught me to be right than theirs. In their older years as they start developing more of a personality I would distance my influence however, respecting their adult-hood.[/QUOTE] So your life experience would tell you that, and you truly believe for even a second, that you will have enough life experience to deal with any and all problems your child has? You don't think for one second that something like transgender issues, something you clearly don't have any grasp of despite throwing studies around as if you did, might smack you on your ass and leave you dumbfounded as you realize, "Hey, holy shit, I didn't go through that, I can't relate to that, but I guess because I told myself at a young age that I would know best, that I know best and that this child of mine can't know that." See, you didn't read the study you quoted that well obviously. Just the age of this girl, and the age of the subjects it recommends begin HRT(How bad can transitioning be if you cite an article that supports it) at 16. The girl in this story? 16.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826918]What i'm baffled by is why people keep acting like i've even ONCE said they were evil. I have not. I have said they were harmful. I have said they did damages. I have said they were ignorant. Disrespectful. Not evil. Not malevolent. So why exactly, are you saying that I am saying this?[/QUOTE] Because if you truly believe that then this statement [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826896] YOu said yourself having christian parents, the most likely thing those parents would do is to trust a christian therapist over an outside one. Guess what a christian therapist is literally not in anyway capable of handling? Trans issues.[/QUOTE] shouldn't have been made. Yeah, we know that Christian therapists are not a good source of mental counseling for a teenage suffering from gender dysphoria, but they didn't [b]know that.[/b] So why bring it up? Simply because everyone here loves to just spew hate and anger at ignorance instead of trying to actually correct it. This is a fucking epidemic within the LGBT acceptance movement. Instead of trying to spread knowledge and curb ignorance, everyone is trying to insult, degrade, and demean anyone who doesn't instantly know the right pronoun to use or how to best deal with transgender issues. This is an extreme case -- somebody killed themselves due to alleged emotional neglect -- but in the end it was out of ignorance. This witchhunt against parents who just lost their fucking child is bullshit.

[QUOTE=geel9;46826959]Because if you truly believe that then this statement shouldn't have been made. Yeah, we know that Christian therapists are not a good source of mental counseling for a teenage suffering from gender dysphoria, but they didn't [b]know that.[/b] So why bring it up? Simply because everyone here loves to just spew hate and anger at ignorance instead of trying to actually correct it. This is a fucking epidemic within the LGBT acceptance movement. Instead of trying to spread knowledge and curb ignorance, everyone is trying to insult, degrade, and demean anyone who doesn't instantly know the right pronoun to use or how to best deal with transgender issues. This is an extreme case -- somebody killed themselves due to alleged emotional neglect -- but in the end it was out of ignorance. This witchhunt against parents who just lost their fucking child is bullshit.[/QUOTE] Where on earth did I degrade or demean these people as anything but they were? Read. My. Fucking. Posts. I've said they're ignorant people who were trying to do the right thing. THAT DOESN'T GET THEM OFF THE HOOK. No one is fucking witchhunting them you are building up a world of persecution in your own head.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826896]I'm watching from the sidelines.[/QUOTE] Being an idiot from the sidelines is still being an idiot.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826965]Where on earth did I degrade or demean these people as anything but they were? Read. My. Fucking. Posts. I've said they're ignorant people who were trying to do the right thing. THAT DOESN'T GET THEM OFF THE HOOK. No one is fucking witchhunting them you are building up a world of persecution in your own head.[/QUOTE] It should get them off the hook. Morally, they did nothing wrong. Their only real crime was ignorance. I'm sure they'll stand trial for neglecting their child and will probably face the consequences, but I don't believe that they morally deserve it -- I simply believe they're not safe enough to be allowed to operate within the world.

[QUOTE=Paramud;46826975]Being an idiot from the sidelines is still being an idiot.[/QUOTE] Hey paramud I see you're doing a good job of saying something of value, or even attempting to read my posts with even a modicum of comprehension. Wait, no, because I've never said that this girls word is the facts of the situation but a far more accurate picture than someone like you would like it to be. But, honestly, what you think of me? No relevance, not after the shit I've seen you say.

Further, just because you're only watching from the sidelines doesn't mean you can't extend to fellow human beings the basic standard of "innocent until proven guilty." The only thing we have are the words of a mentally ill, suicidal teenager that is at the age where everything negative that happens in their life is seen as a personal attack. It is possible that the parents did nothing wrong. The reverse is also possible. But if I were to just shoot myself in the head and blame my parents because they emotionally and physically abused me for years -- should they go to prison without any evidence?

[QUOTE=geel9;46826976]It should get them off the hook. Morally, they did nothing wrong. Their only real crime was ignorance. I'm sure they'll stand trial for neglecting their child and will probably face the consequences, but I don't believe that they morally deserve it -- I simply believe they're not safe enough to be allowed to operate within the world.[/QUOTE] ignoring their own child and continuing to disrespect them even after death is pretty morally fucked up no matter how you spin it

[QUOTE=geel9;46826976]It should get them off the hook. [B]Morally, they did nothing wrong.[/B] Their only real crime was ignorance. I'm sure they'll stand trial for neglecting their child and will probably face the consequences, but I don't believe that they morally deserve it -- I simply believe they're not safe enough to be allowed to operate within the world.[/QUOTE] Being so ignorant of transgenderism to the point of driving their child to suicide and sending her to a "therapist" who tries to "fix" her transgenderism with religious bigotry? totally morally ok! They only killed their own child!

[QUOTE=geel9;46826989] The only thing we have are the words of a [B]mentally ill[/B], suicidal teenager[/QUOTE] don't fucking do this [editline]Edited:[/editline] don't EVER fucking do this

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46826952]So by definition then, we should take the parents at their every word?[/QUOTE] By definition we shouldn't rely on unreliable testimonies. [QUOTE]I don't believe that science really has "go to" articles. I'm refering more to the way you like to slap an article that has a couple of findings that you like, and go "Hey, look at me, i'm so well supported in this argument of bigotry.[/QUOTE] Certainly you believe that there are foundational pieces of evidence for certain theories, that is what I'm asking for. [QUOTE]So your life experience would tell you that, and you truly believe for even a second, that you will have enough life experience to deal with any and all problems your child has?[/QUOTE] Hardly, I just think that a child has even less and thus is far less qualified to know how to deal with their problems. [QUOTE]You don't think for one second that something like transgender issues, something you clearly don't have any grasp of despite throwing studies around as if you did, might smack you on your ass and leave you dumbfounded as you realize, "Hey, holy shit, I didn't go through that, I can't relate to that, but I guess because I told myself at a young age that I would know best, that I know best and that this child of mine can't know that."[/QUOTE] Yes, I am not convinced by emotional/anecdotal evidence [QUOTE]See, you didn't read the study you quoted that well obviously. Just the age of this girl, and the age of the subjects it recommends begin HRT(How bad can transitioning be if you cite an article that supports it) at 16. The girl in this story? 16.[/QUOTE] I recognize the age issue, I was just dealing with a specific statement you made about people apparently knowing who they are from a very young age. Also notably the article does not cite any sources when it claims that changes from sex hormone therapy are usually accompanied by mental well-being in section 3.0.

[QUOTE=Limed00d;46827002]don't fucking do this [editline][/editline] don't EVER fucking do this[/QUOTE] Being suicidal is being mentally ill. Hell, I'll say that suffering from gender identity issues is a mental illness. Your mind literally disagrees with your physical representation -- without any negative connotations, that is an illness.

[QUOTE=geel9;46826872]Having actually had Christian parents I would argue that it's far more likely that they believed that their 16 year old son is going through puberty and is in a very confused state right now mentally and so needed a therapist. However, their church has brainwashed them to the point where they can only trust other Christians and so they send their son to the best of the best -- a Christian therapist so they can fix him.[/QUOTE] That's quite possible, but there's also the part where they took them out of school for saying they were gay. The only way I can see that being ignorance rather than malice is if they were desperate and thought that they would start acting like they wanted if the only communication they had was with the church. Hmm. It very well could be mostly out of ignorance, but I doubt that there was [I]no[/I] malice involved. [QUOTE=geel9;46826891]I have no problem with you placing more trust in a kid who has abusive parents but unfortunately you do not actually know that this kid had abusive parents. Do you see the issue[/QUOTE] I doubt someone would lie [I]that[/I] much in a [I]suicide letter[/I]. Exaggerate? Sure. I think the part about their friends only liking them because they saw them often was more due to being clouded by depression. Same with the part about it being impossible to ever transition. And they could be exaggerating how much their parents disliked them. However, I don't doubt the parts about taking them out of school and taking them to specifically Christian therapists. As far as I know, they had no reason to lie about that.

[QUOTE=geel9;46826976]It should get them off the hook. Morally, they did nothing wrong. Their only real crime was ignorance. I'm sure they'll stand trial for neglecting their child and will probably face the consequences, but I don't believe that they morally deserve it -- I simply believe they're not safe enough to be allowed to operate within the world.[/QUOTE] they did do something wrong morally, just not from their point of view, because they are ignorant ignorance shouldn't absolve someone from a harmful act, just because they didn't see it as harmful it doesn't mean it's suddenly ok

[QUOTE=Last or First;46827014]That's quite possible, but there's also the part where they took them out of school for saying they were gay. The only way I can see that being ignorance rather than malice is if they were desperate and thought that they would start acting like they wanted if the only communication they had was with the church. Hmm. It very well could be mostly out of ignorance, but I doubt that there was [I]no[/I] malice involved. I doubt someone would lie [I]that[/I] much in a [I]suicide letter[/I]. Exaggerate? Sure. I think the part about their friends only liking them because they saw them often was more due to being clouded by depression. Same with the part about it being impossible to ever transition. And they could be exaggerating how much their parents disliked them. However, I don't doubt the parts about taking them out of school and taking them to specifically Christian therapists. As far as I know, they had no reason to lie about that.[/QUOTE] While I don't really believe it to be true, it's possible that in their suicidal, depressed state they were incredibly upset at their parents and made things up as a form of revenge. [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46827020]they did do something wrong morally, just not from their point of view, because they are ignorant ignorance shouldn't absolve someone from a harmful act, just because they didn't see it as harmful it doesn't mean it's suddenly ok[/QUOTE] yes it does. all that matters is your intent. if you know that something will physically or emotionally harm someone and you do it anyways, that is ethically wrong. if you do something that you hope or believe will help someone and it has the reverse effect, that is a mistake. That said, I believe this is what prison is for -- keeping those with moral judgement issues away from the majority.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827026]While I don't really believe it to be true, it's possible that in their suicidal, depressed state they were incredibly upset at their parents and made things up as a form of revenge. [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] yes it does. all that matters is your intent. if you know that something will physically or emotionally harm someone and you do it anyways, that is ethically wrong. if you do something that you hope or believe will help someone and it has the reverse effect, that is a mistake. That said, I believe this is what prison is for -- keeping those with moral judgement issues away from the majority.[/QUOTE] You're cherry picking her document and deciding, based arbitrarily on what you think is possible, is true. How do you not see that? You trust her on the christian therapists, but you full out dismiss her on the claim that her parents restricted her social access through her phone/laptop and even pulled her out of school(All things I've seen parents do without being religious fanatics) over her behaviour not fitting the imagery a christian family should typically fit.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827026]While I don't really believe it to be true, it's possible that in their suicidal, depressed state they were incredibly upset at their parents and made things up as a form of revenge.[/quote] Then why were they suicidal and depressed in the first place? Sure, it's [I]possible[/I] they made the whole thing up and really killed themselves because someone said something mean on tumblr or something like that, but it's not a very large possibility. I would say less than 1%. [QUOTE=geel9;46827026]yes it does. all that matters is your intent. if you know that something will physically or emotionally harm someone and you do it anyways, that is ethically wrong. if you do something that you hope or believe will help someone and it has the reverse effect, that is a mistake. That said, I believe this is what prison is for -- keeping those with moral judgement issues away from the majority.[/QUOTE] If you make a mistake, you still need to own up to it, apologize, and try to make up as best as you can. If you agree with that, then any further arguing would probably just be semantics.

[QUOTE]That said, I believe this is what prison is for -- keeping those with moral judgement issues away from the majority. [/QUOTE] Holy fuck, what are politicians doing out there then?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46827060]You're cherry picking her document and deciding, based arbitrarily on what you think is possible, is true. How do you not see that? You trust her on the christian therapists, but you full out dismiss her on the claim that her parents restricted her social access through her phone/laptop and even pulled her out of school(All things I've seen parents do without being religious fanatics) over her behaviour not fitting the imagery a christian family should typically fit.[/QUOTE] the therapists were just an example that all stem from the same thing. my parents literally sent me to a shitty Christian private school because they thought public schools were secular shitholes that breed atheist drug using murderers. did they fuck up? yeah. do i think they were morally in the wrong? nope.

Geel9 I dont know what experience you have with suicidal depression but in most cases suicidal people dont commit suicide as some version of angsty revenge. They commit suicide because they see themselves as a burden on society/those around them, or they do it because whatever they're going through quite simply is far too much for them and they see no point to continuing their pain. You also seem to think that your experiences = everyones experiences or at least the great majority.