Transgender teen leaves note on tumblr blaming Christian parents for suicide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=geel9;46827258]Perhaps it's your thirst for blood that makes anyone saying "hey maybe the parents DIDN'T do it" seem like a ridiculous and extreme proposal? If the parents are being witch-hunted for something that we cannot prove actually happened then of course I'm going to be a bit defensive. For all intents and purposes, they are innocent until proven guilty.[/QUOTE] You seem to be under the impression that I have taken a stance in this topic. Perhaps you should read better. At this point all I've done was refute you.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;46827264]You seem to be under the impression that I have taken a stance in this topic. Perhaps you should read better. At this point all I've done was refute you.[/QUOTE] Not well. Refusing to accept that someone performed an action for which there is no substantial evidence does not make me "defending" them any further than any presumption of innocence should be.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827247]not blindly taking someone at their (written) word just because they're trans does not a bigot make.[/QUOTE] Maybe not, but it's also not like this thread was an entirely pleasant ride the whole way through either.

You pushing an optimistic viewpoint of the actions of her parents does in some way indicate that you are defending them. For example [quote]or that she wasn't trying hard enough[/quote]

[QUOTE=Kyle902;46827275]You pushing an optimistic viewpoint of the actions of her parents does in some way indicate that you are defending them. For example[/QUOTE] I had assumed you meant by "defending" them you meant I was claiming that they did not do what they are said to have done. In terms of defending the morality of their actions, yes, I will defend the fact that they were not trying to harm their child and were trying to do what they thought was best. [b]Assuming that hypothetically they did do what they're accused of,[/b] I believe they should face prison / mental institutions because they're just unsafe for society, but I don't have a personal problem with them. They are people that made a string of unfortunate mistakes hoping it would lead to the best outcome for someone they deeply care about.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827247]or that she wasn't trying hard enough [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] not blindly taking someone at their (written) word just because they're trans does not a bigot make.[/QUOTE] Ignoring the whole using god to "fix" her and her mother still labeling her as a he even after death, i would easily take her side of the story. This comes from a person who is dating someone whos trans and who had to go through the same exact shit (bar the god part), and being friends with others who suffer every day while their parents outright deny their needs or worse, try to "fix" them.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;46827303]Ignoring the whole using god to "fix" her and her mother still labeling her as a he even after death, i would easily take her side of the story. This comes from a person who is dating someone whos trans and had to go through the same exact shit (bar the god part), and being friends with others who suffer every day while their parents outright deny their needs or worse, try to "fix" them.[/QUOTE] The parents aren't objectively [b]right[/b] and there are certainly some parents that can know/believe their child is transgendered and hate them because of it, but I think in this situation it's them massively fucking up whilst trying to do what they thought was right for their child.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827310]The parents aren't objectively [B]right[/B] and there are certainly some parents that can know/believe their child is transgendered and hate them because of it, but I think in this situation it's them massively fucking up whilst trying to do what they [B]thought was right for their child.[/B][/QUOTE] thinking youre doing the right thing and actually doing the right thing aren't even close. "Its the thought that counts" is something idiots say.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827207]When someone kills themselves at the expense of another person I find that to be a pretty good indicator of their mental status of not giving a fuck about others. Lying and deceiving aren't exactly hard when you don't care.[/QUOTE] "Kills themselves at the expense of another person?" You're suggesting that a person is lying because their life and their emotional state have gotten so unbearable that it is more beneficial in their minds to enter a cold, lifeless abyss and deprive themselves of any further experience in life, than to continue living? What reason would this person actually have to lie at that point? It's not about having nothing to lose, because someone who is committing suicide knows that they have everything to lose. You don't reach rock bottom and feel those kinds of shit emotions without some idea that you [B]want[/B] things to get better. This kid knew what she wanted - but her depression and struggle got to the point where she simply couldn't see the light at the end of it, and [B]dying[/B] was preferable to continuing. [quote] Besides, you do have to remember that I actually personally stated that I do not believe that she is lying or deceiving people through her suicide note -- I think it's highly possible she has inaccuracies blinded by her depression and we need *actual evidence* before we can make any claim to know what really went on. Because I do not find it fair that others are taking a position with completely insufficient evidence. [/quote] You're demanding evidence, but you're not going to get any. The likelihood of the parents telling the truth is so much lower than that of the suicidal teenager. I'm firmly of the belief that a parent who is so deranged as to have such brazen disregard for their child's well being is not a person to be trusted. They clearly believe that they have nothing to lose, that their belief in God matters more to them than the life of their child. Why does this matter so much? [quote] I came into the thread and noticed multiple chains of conversations occurring. I took issue with someone saying that her parents were assholes/malevolent in their alleged actions -- so I responded to that theory. [/quote] I don't really see how you could misconstrue what her parents did as anything other than malevolent. People can act in a malevolent way whilst thinking they are doing the right thing. It doesn't make them any less responsible. [quote] I also took issue with the idea that we can actually know what really happened -- so I responded separately. [/quote] I take issue with the notion that someone would lie in a suicide note. What is so hard to believe about this story? It's not an uncommon one by any means. It happens all the time.

[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;46827320]thinking youre doing the right thing and actually doing the right thing aren't even close. "Its the thought that counts" is something idiots say.[/QUOTE] the thought does count when you're debating morals... [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;46827322]"Kills themselves at the expense of another person?" You're suggesting that a person is lying because their life and their emotional state have gotten so unbearable that it is more beneficial in their minds to enter a cold, lifeless abyss and deprive themselves of any further experience in life, than to continue living? What reason would this person actually have to lie at that point? It's not about having nothing to lose, because someone who is committing suicide knows that they have everything to lose. You don't reach rock bottom and feel those kinds of shit emotions without some idea that you [B]want[/B] things to get better. This kid knew what she wanted - but her depression and struggle got to the point where she simply couldn't see the light at the end of it, and [B]dying[/B] was preferable to continuing. You're demanding evidence, but you're not going to get any. The likelihood of the parents telling the truth is so much lower than that of the suicidal teenager. I'm firmly of the belief that a parent who is so deranged as to have such brazen disregard for their child's well being is not a person to be trusted. They clearly believe that they have nothing to lose, that their belief in God matters more to them than the life of their child. Why does this matter so much? I don't really see how you could misconstrue what her parents did as anything other than malevolent. People can act in a malevolent way whilst thinking they are doing the right thing. It doesn't make them any less responsible. I take issue with the notion that someone would lie in a suicide note. What is so hard to believe about this story? It's not an uncommon one by any means. It happens all the time.[/QUOTE] They "clearly believe" these things -- and you know this based off of...the suicide note...? You [b]cannot be malevolent without intent.[/b] Malevolence is literally defined as the wish to do evil onto others.

why are people in this thread trying to defend the parents by acting like they are innocent?

[QUOTE=AJ10017;46827346]why are people in this thread trying to defend the parents by acting like they are innocent?[/QUOTE] Maybe if you read their posts you'll find out why.

[QUOTE=AJ10017;46827346]why are people in this thread trying to defend the parents by acting like they are innocent?[/QUOTE] First of all, the parents are by definition innocent without substantial evidence to back up the idea that they are guilty... However, let's assume that they are guilty. I've said it a thousand times -- [b]there need to be repercussions for their actions[/b] but I do not think that they were [b]morally in the wrong[/b] because their actions were most likely from a place of caring.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827269]Not well. Refusing to accept that someone performed an action for which there is no substantial evidence does not make me "defending" them any further than any presumption of innocence should be.[/QUOTE] Your whole argument assumes that ignorance is an appropriate defense, when in actuality, they weren't ignorant of problems. The parents took her to a christian therapist. This means that they KNEW their child was mentally unstable. Any claim of ignorance of mental instability goes right out the window at that point. They knew the therapy sessions were not working, yet did not seek professional help of a real therapist or psychologist. THAT is neglect. Due to their neglect to solve her mental instabilities, she committed suicide, which could have been prevented if she had received proper care. Her parents refused to seek proper care. THAT is neglect x2. Any DA can get an indictment for neglect causing her to take her life, which isn't a slap on the wrist, it's prison. They were aware of the problems and didn't do what they should have to resolve them. As far as I'm concerned, they are guilty, and their actions prove it.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827323]the thought does count when you're debating morals... They "clearly believe" these things -- and you know this based off of...the suicide note...? You [b]cannot be malevolent without intent.[/b] Malevolence is literally defined as the wish to do evil onto others.[/QUOTE] So what, we've turned this into an argument on whether or not something is moral based off of intent? If you think you're doing the right thing, the way your actions seem completely morally vacuous to the rest of the world just doesn't matter? Most evil things are done with the best intentions. I'd concede that it might be a stretch to call these people willfully evil in the sense they would have [I]wanted[/I] to harm their own child - but they did. Most parts of this story add up just fine. It's clear on the fact that this kind of thing happens all the fucking time to trans people, all across the world. Religious fanatics prioritize their beliefs over their children constantly. I mean, what's more likely here? How is this story suspect in any way? How is anyone not justified in thinking these parents are particularly shit people? Regardless of their intentions, the blame for their child's death falls squarely on their shoulders through their [B]actions.[/B]

[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;46827378]So what, we've turned this into an argument on whether or not something is moral based off of intent? If you think you're doing the right thing, the way your actions seem completely morally vacuous to the rest of the world just doesn't matter? Most evil things are done with the best intentions. I'd concede that it might be a stretch to call these people willfully evil in the sense they would have [I]wanted[/I] to harm their own child - but they did. Most parts of this story add up just fine. It's clear on the fact that this kind of thing happens all the fucking time to trans people, all across the world. Religious fanatics prioritize their beliefs over their children constantly. I mean, what's more likely here? How is this story suspect in any way? How is anyone not justified in thinking these parents are particularly shit people? Regardless of their intentions, the blame for their child's death falls squarely on their shoulders through their [B]actions.[/B][/QUOTE] The result of an action does not dictate its morality. All that matters is what you intended. If you accidentally run over someone with a car you're not a murderer or a psychopath.

If you've posted in this thread without the intention to provoke others and feel suicide is genuinely selfish, I want you to take a step back and understand that it really isn't hard to empathize with situations that don't effect you, if you put a little effort in When I hear people saying that suicide is selfish, I can't help but feel as if they're somewhat hypocritical - like you think it's unfair for someone to kill themselves but seem to be perfectly okay for them to stay alive in a miserable existence solely for other people? Obviously, I don't want anyone to kill themselves and it's probably not how people intend to come across but as someone who has suffered from depression for over a decade, this attitude really makes me wince

[QUOTE=geel9;46827284]I had assumed you meant by "defending" them you meant I was claiming that they did not do what they are said to have done.[/QUOTE] they had plenty of time to take a step back and look at what they were doing

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46827444]they had plenty of time to take a step back and look at what they were doing[/QUOTE] literally what does that have to do with what you quoted

[QUOTE=geel9;46827457]literally what does that have to do with what you quoted[/QUOTE] i just assumed "what they had done" was referring to intentionally harming their child? it's what you mention right afterwards?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46827472]i just assumed "what they had done" was referring to intentionally harming their child? it's what you mention right afterwards?[/QUOTE] We disagree on the "intentional" bit.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827476]We disagree on the "intentional" bit.[/QUOTE] that's pretty obvious, but like i already said twice, they had time to think about it. they might've thought that what they were doing was right, but there's no way they didn't realize it was harming the kid (for the "greater good" or not). according to your own words, once you realize that whatever it is you're doing is causing harm, they're doing something wrong, and the parents had at least two years to think it through

[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;46827218]Are there any other controversial threads like this? Because this might be the most controversial thread I have ever seen.[/QUOTE] Both transgender identity and suicide are both topics that FP users are opiniated on and willing to debate on to the death in support of their opinion. Other threads where these kinds of debates show up on include: Bestiality Death sentence Lolicon Muslims Violent video games Gamergate etc. Long nonsensical debate in a SH thread is standard.

No matter what you think, this is fucking awful either way. Felt sad when I read this on Twitter this morning.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46827488]that's pretty obvious, but like i already said twice, they had time to think about it. they might've thought that what they were doing was right, but there's no way they didn't realize it was harming the kid (for the "greater good" or not). according to your own words, once you realize that whatever it is you're doing is causing harm, they're doing something wrong, and the parents had at least two years to think it through[/QUOTE] Sure, which is why they escalated to more extreme measures... the ability to see that you aren't doing it correctly doesn't give you the sudden insight into what the correct way to do it is.

[QUOTE=ridinmybike;46825551]No one should commit suicide. i don't care what cards life plays on you. It's a very selfish act, I bet she would have felt different in a couple of years.. “My death needs to mean something. My death needs to be counted in the number of transgender people who commit suicide this year. I want someone to look at that number and say “that’s f***ed up” and fix it. Fix society. Please.” Saying your death needs to mean something is selfish, why the fuck wouldn't you try to change anything rather than sit and bitch about who you are and then kill yourself. She did absolutely nothing for transgendered people except make everyone look at her. That's selfish[/QUOTE] Holy shit you and other people that spout similar nonsense are so fucking backwards you almost make me ashamed to be the same species as you. Fuck.

[QUOTE=geel9;46827508]Sure, which is why they escalated to more extreme measures... the ability to see that you aren't doing it correctly doesn't give you the sudden insight into what the correct way to do it is.[/QUOTE] i agree, but the point (at least for you) isn't the methods they used, it's the morals involved in blaming them. you've argued that the parents aren't at fault due to their ignorance, and yet you agree that they knew they were causing harm, when you've literally said [quote] if you know that something will physically or emotionally harm someone and you do it anyways, that is ethically wrong[/quote]

[QUOTE=geel9;46827386]The result of an action does not dictate its morality. All that matters is what you intended. If you accidentally run over someone with a car you're not a murderer or a psychopath.[/QUOTE] "Hey god, I killed a bunch of kids, but I ate right! No! What you eat ain't got shit to do with who you are as a per-son." - Chris Rock Your whole argument is a load of bullshit. You're saying, "oh, if they meant the good intentions, then they aren't murderers!" Do you even read? Her parents are the reason [B]why[/B] she killed herself!

[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;46826485]They took the child to a therapist, how is that not dealing with it? I doubt they sought out psychological help for their child out of malice. Also instead of being ignorant, it's perfectly possible they don't think your position is the right one.[/QUOTE] Oh it's you again. Here's an idea, stop posting in threads like these because you always sound like a fucking shithead. "Christian therapists" are full of shit and "solve" problems with god and bible verses. It's a load of crackpot bullshit that needs to be made illegal. Telling someone they're selfish and god is disappointed with them isn't therapeutic you know? You probably didn't.

[quote]The result of an action does not dictate its morality. All that matters is what you intended. If you accidentally run over someone with a car you're not a murderer or a psychopath. [/quote] To use your example - no, if you accidentally ran over someone with your car and you didn't intend to, then you aren't a murderer or a psychopath. You're still responsible for their death, though. And in this case, it's more comparable to drunk driving. You know it's dangerous, you know it kills people, and people are expected to know better - people suffer such severe penalties for it as a result. These parents acted in a way that was grossly negligent of their child. They are heavily responsible for her death.