Transgender teen leaves note on tumblr blaming Christian parents for suicide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=meatwad253;46844760]Suicide is selfish.[/QUOTE] elaborate I'd love to hear your totally original rationalization behind this

[QUOTE=Skerion;46844941]Why? Because other people don't like it? I support the LGBT movement and all, but I don't think "a lot of people don't like it" should be a reason to stop having an opinion.[/QUOTE] It is when your opinion, combined with the opinions of other people who share yours, make the quality of life of thousands of people worse. Having an unpopular opinion like thinking hamburgers are awful is not the same kind of opinion that breeds hate against minorities.

[QUOTE=Wolf532;46844178]I personally think Geel has a point, you assumed the worst of someone trying to be respectful but making a mistake, instead of correcting him (Which look! He did! Wow, he sure was an asshole!) you just straight up attack him for fucking up. I'm not transgender, so I don't understand what it's like to be "misgendered" but can't you give people a little more leeway before assuming they're a bigot? Geel is just trying to comment on the very "assume the worst of everyone" mentality this thread has. The parents? Obviously completely evil (They might have been, but who knows). Someone trying to show respect for the girl but calls her Joshuah? Bigoted asshole who deserves no respect. I hate saying this but it's borderline tumblrism. Everyone who makes one mistake is automatically the enemy. Yes, Geel has said a few stupid things, but I can see the points he is trying to make.[/QUOTE] I'm kinda hoping someone responds to this rather than just dismiss it with ratings without leaving an explanation on why they're still not convinced.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46844958]elaborate I'd love to hear your totally original rationalization behind this[/QUOTE] Are you saying it cant be selfish in any way?

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46844988]It is when your opinion, combined with the opinions of other people who share yours, make the quality of life of thousands of people worse. Having an unpopular opinion like thinking hamburgers are awful is not the same kind of opinion that breeds hate against minorities.[/QUOTE] Well I'm just saying, because when he says this: [QUOTE=Explosions;46844402]If you have an opinion that you're too embarrassed to share publicly, maybe you shouldn't have that opinion.[/QUOTE] It could be implied that anyone who has any kind of unpopular opinion should just give that up regardless of what it is, and I feel that he should reword that better.

[QUOTE=Skerion;46844941]Why? Because other people don't like it? I support the LGBT movement and all, but I don't think "a lot of people don't like it" should be a reason to stop having an opinion.[/QUOTE] I get what you are saying and while i think you are correct in a general sense, it doesn't really excuse holding a negative view of LGBT individuals. if you disapprove of gays/trans whatever and you are afraid to state this bluntly and publicly its likely because you know will be asked to justify your stance, and deep down you know there is literally no decent rational reason you can respond with.

[QUOTE=Sally;46845019]Are you saying it cant be selfish in any way?[/QUOTE] I think the problem is that the word "selfish" is usually used in a critical way and people who have sympathy for Leelah don't want her to be shown in a negative light and be blamed for it after all the trouble she went through. [editline]2nd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=fulgrim;46845033]I get what you are saying and while i think you are correct in a general sense, it doesn't really excuse holding a negative view of LGBT individuals. if you disapprove of gays/trans whatever and you are afraid to state this bluntly and publicly its likely because you know will be asked to justify your stance, and deep down you know there is literally no decent rational reason you can respond with.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that would make sense.

[QUOTE=Skerion;46844941]Why? Because other people don't like it? I support the LGBT movement and all, but I don't think "a lot of people don't like it" should be a reason to stop having an opinion.[/QUOTE] Nope. But if someone realizes their own opinion is too embarrassing to voice on an anonymous forum, they probably know deep down that they don't hold that opinion for a good reason.

[QUOTE=Explosions;46845069]Nope. But if someone realizes their own opinion is too embarrassing to voice on an anonymous forum, they probably know deep down that they don't hold that opinion for a good reason.[/QUOTE] Someone thought to them selves there should be rights for blacks, maybe they should of hushed.

[QUOTE=Sally;46845096]Someone thought to them selves there should be rights for blacks, maybe they should of hushed.[/QUOTE] If you're embarrassed to share an opinion like that then your heart isn't in the right place.

[QUOTE=Ripmax;46828333]Oh wow.... some more information, a post she made an /r/asktransgender a couple of months ago. It goes into more detail about what her parents did to her. [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/2km6yt/is_this_considered_abuse/[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]...they were both extremely angry with me. They never physically hurt me, but they always talked to me in a very derogatory tone. They would say things like "You'll never be a real girl" or "What're you going to do, fuck boys?" or "God's going to send you straight to hell". These all made me feel awful about myself, I was christian at the time so I thought that God hated me and that I didn't deserve to be alive. I cut myself at least once every couple days, and I was constantly thinking about suicide.[/QUOTE] Wow. What terrible fucking parents. There's no way they didn't think they were doing emotional harm to their child.

[QUOTE=Sally;46845096]Someone thought to them selves there should be rights for blacks, maybe they should of hushed.[/QUOTE] Only the opinions we're talking about are [I]anti[/I]-social progress, not pro-social progress

[QUOTE=Explosions;46845069]Nope. But if someone realizes their own opinion is too embarrassing to voice on an anonymous forum, they probably know deep down that they don't hold that opinion for a good reason.[/QUOTE] The person didn't use the term embarrassed and probably means they would rather avoid an argument and just wish the person peace in death. It makes sense to me, they'd rather not use a person's death as a platform to let everyone know their controversial opinion, whatever it is.

[QUOTE=Explosions;46845170]If you're embarrassed to share an opinion like that then your heart isn't in the right place.[/QUOTE] I think it's less of being embarrassed to share an opinion and more about being scared of the possible backlash you would get from the large majority who would strongly disapprove of said opinion. I don't think you can expect everyone to be able to be completely brave and proud to state their unpopular opinion and firmly stand their ground when you've got that much people against said opinion without much signs of that changing in the future, especially if one is already afraid of being harshly criticized by a lot of people and being considered abnormal.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;46823242]I just wish those who are rating this winner and funny would just say something[/QUOTE] Believing that you are something you are not is the touchstone of insanity. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Dumb or trolling" - SteveUK))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Richoxen;46845480]Believing that you are something you are not is the touchstone of insanity.[/QUOTE] Except trans people are the gender they identify as since their brains are physically very similar. Trans people are not otherkin. In the womb, you start female and then grow male parts if that's how you turn out. Sometimes, hormones screw up, and your brain becomes more similar to the opposite gender's brain. Why am I even bothering arguing with someone with a nazi as an avatar though, It's pretty obvious your opinion isn't going to be changed and you're just here to stir up shit for giggles

[QUOTE=Richoxen;46845480]Believing that you are something you are not is the touchstone of insanity.[/QUOTE] Dont mean to butt in here, but isn't the definition of insanity "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"?

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46845498]Except trans people are the gender they identify as since their brains are physically very similar. Trans people are not otherkin. In the womb, you start female and then grow male parts if that's how you turn out. Sometimes, hormones screw up, and your brain becomes more similar to the opposite gender's brain. Why am I even bothering arguing with someone with a nazi as an avatar though, It's pretty obvious your opinion isn't going to be changed and you're just here to stir up shit for giggles[/QUOTE] Actually your point makes sense. Sidenote: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel[/url] [QUOTE=h2obox;46845533]Dont mean to butt in here, but isn't the definition of insanity "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"?[/QUOTE] No.

[QUOTE=Levithan;46844710]I personally don't like being pathologized because of my identity but alright.[/QUOTE] Identity is just a product of brain functions and there are things that can go wrong with it, just like every other brain function. The brain systems responsible for that identity obviously didn't follow the same plan as the rest of the body. Maybe the wrong genes or something got activated or something. Something in your brain is literally different from the corresponding structure in my brain. When I was born, the brain structures responsible for attention span and impulse control didn't grow right, resulting in me having ADHD. It's just one of the many things that can happen naturally when small differences occur in the human brain. Honestly if you feel like that's pathologizing you then quite frankly you're mistakenly attributing it as insulting when it is absolutely not insulting at all. If I was doing so I'd be saying you need to be fixed or something, or that you're broken and your brain needs to be changed so that your gender identity is normal. But we're not. The goal is to relieve the symptoms you are experiencing, not to fix your brain and make it neurotypical. The treatments for ADHD focus on extending my attention span and allow me to actually sit still for more than a few minutes, not actually changing my brain to have normal neurons. Same thing for GD. You are obviously experiencing some unpleasant symptoms as a result of gender dysphoria (obviously the anxiety over your body being the main one) and the goal is to relieve that anxiety, not remove the source of it.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46845498]Except trans people are the gender they identify as since their brains are physically very similar. Trans people are not otherkin. In the womb, you start female and then grow male parts if that's how you turn out. Sometimes, hormones screw up, and your brain becomes more similar to the opposite gender's brain. Why am I even bothering arguing with someone with a nazi as an avatar though, It's pretty obvious your opinion isn't going to be changed and you're just here to stir up shit for giggles[/QUOTE] I do have a follow up quesion though, you say it could be because of a lack of certain types of hormoes during birth. If thats the case i see two options, one remake the body to match the mind.Or two couldn't you suppliment the mind with pills that contain the missing hormones thus making the mind match the body or is that not an option?

[QUOTE=Richoxen;46845702]I do have a follow up quesion though, you say it could be because of a lack of certain types of hormoes during birth. If thats the case i see two options, one remake the body to match the mind . Or two couldn't you suppliment the mind medically with pills that contain the missing hormones or is that not an option?[/QUOTE] As far as I know there's nothing stopping that from being an option, but since the brain is so much different from the body, it would be more effective to change the body then the mind. Like I said, their brain is physically more similar to the gender they identify as then their physical sex.

[QUOTE=Richoxen;46845702]I do have a follow up quesion though, you say it could be because of a lack of certain types of hormoes during birth. If thats the case i see two options, one remake the body to match the mind . Or two couldn't you suppliment the mind medically with pills that contain the missing hormones or is that not an option?[/QUOTE] the first is the current method, the second is extremely negatively viewed because it's basically eugenics and the last thing we need as a species is for everybody to have the same brain structure. The exception is the case where they will be impaired or something [B]objectively negative[/B]. An example I am familiar with: ADHD / aspergers: MANY of the smartest people in history have had these conditions. They have some benefit regarding intelligence, and a negative regarding social skills. Gender dysphoria is another neutral thing, it doesn't help or hurt anything in particular, it's just a natural difference. Something objectively negative would be lacking myelin sheaths, completely buttfucking the brain's ability to do pretty much anything efficiently, especially complex, abstract thought. If we just treated every [I]difference[/I] we wouldn't have the wonderful degree of differentiation that we do have, which give rise to geniuses and playwrights and musicians and such. Diversity is extremely important.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46845725]As far as I know there's nothing stopping that from being an option, but since the brain is so much different from the body, it would be more effective to change the body then the mind. Like I said, their brain is physically more similar to the gender they identify as then their physical sex.[/QUOTE] Usually when someone has a chemical imbalance for other issues like bi-polar disorder(just as an example) we'd handle it through medication. Although i can see surgery as being a more permanent solution.

[QUOTE=Nebukadnezzer;46845727]the first is the current method, the second is extremely negatively viewed because it's basically eugenics and the last thing we need as a species is for everybody to have the same brain structure.[/QUOTE] It depends on the condition. I think it would be moral for people to refuse to have a child with certain mental and physical disabilities, if they had the ability to predict it before birth. I mean, somebody could have a trans child, but why on earth would they want to create a person who is inherently distressed by virtue of the fact their physical body feels wrong? If I could predict whenever an unborn fetus was trans or not, and a medical treatment existed for this during development in the womb, I would choose it. You could bring the child up without choosing the treatment, but then you would have to live with the fact that when they ask about why they don't feel like they have the right body, become depressed, struggle to cope, etc, that you are partly responsible because you had the power to stop this pain and suffering in the first place.

[QUOTE=Richoxen;46845780]Usually when someone has a chemical imbalance for other issues like bi-polar disorder(just as an example) we'd handle it through medication. Although i can see surgery as being a more permanent solution.[/QUOTE] I think it's because medication is less of a permanent solution. HRT and possibly gender reassignment surgery is more effective.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;46844681]Dude wow, no its both a mental and physical illness, just how depression can be a mental and physical illness. If you are SO distraught over your gender that you battle with yourself day after day, feeling sad, angry, frustrated, confused, all the fucking time, then you got some mental illness. You are not in the right state of mind and its that gender dysphoria thats causing it. Thats why its actually labeled as a Medical condition and not a Physical/Mental one. It has both physical aspects to it, and mental ones. Why do you think suicide rates are SO fucking high for people with Gender Dysphoria. You could apply the same type of logic to homosexuality if someone is having serious mental anguish over their sexuality. [B]The only possible and and moral treatment is changing the body not the mind[/B] This is one of the most disgusting, and horribly misguiding things ive ever heard about this shit. Do you realize how fucking common suicide is after SRS? You cant just go changing the body without helping the obviously distraught mind. Honestly your mindset of just changing the body is why I think suicide rates get so high. People get pressured into by people around them with the same mindset saying "You gotta just change how you look and you will be happy!" and then they do it, they arent happy, and worse off than before. Its like people dont want it to have anything to do with being called a mental illness because it seems offensive(its not, and that mindset is fucking retarded) Personally I think helping the mind first BEFORE changing your body is by far the best way to go. Why the fuck are you gonna go mess with your body if you are still so distraught? Why not get therapy or a psychiatrist and work with them and come up with a gameplan, collect yourself, and THEN alter your body the way you want once you have gotten a hold of your emotions. Doesnt mean your always gonna get the mental with it, but with the staggering suicide statistics alone id say its pretty common. Being confused about yourself all the time and causing anguish over just who you are and your sexuality/gender as a person cannot be a good time for anyone.[/QUOTE] You can't change anyones brain structure/sex/gender anymore than you can change someones chromosomes. This isn't some chemical imballance like schitzaphrenia this is their brain being physically that of the other sex it's more like one of the many intersex conditions than anything mental. You seem to think just becuase it's the brain it's mental which is ridiculous. The treating the brain option you suggest aka conversion theropy never has worked and never will in the same way it doesn't work for homosexuals. Suicude reduces after SRS, I know of the study you got your information from and let mw jaut say did you actually read it? It does specifically say those who had SRS in the 70's didn't have reduced suicide rates but those who had SRS in the 80's and beyond had suicide rates reduced. Many other more recent studies have shown SRS to reduce suicide. Your opinion is going against psychological and scientific evidence. You seem to have no idea of the process to get both hormones and SRS, you must be of sound mind and not have attempted suicide in the last year, you must also go through theropy and have RLE as the gender you identity with, the only exeption to this is the USAs informed consent clinics which are only for hormones not SRS. Do you honestly think transgender people would be medically assisted in changing their body to match their mind if it wasn't the only option that worked and the only humane one.

[QUOTE=Explosions;46844402]If you have an opinion that you're too embarrassed to share publicly, maybe you shouldn't have that opinion.[/QUOTE] Regardless of context, this is a really silly thing to say. Should people's opinions always align with the majority? If I'm pro Transgender rights and in a very very fundamentalist Christian or right wing or whatever community should I just agree with them instead because having a different opinion and fearing ridicule is bad?

[QUOTE=Sally;46845019]Are you saying it cant be selfish in any way?[/QUOTE] Suicide can't be selfish by design. What do you gain for yourself? Losing your life is the ultimate loss.

I was going to come in here and post about how I find it odd to treat people physically rather than mentally but reading the posts on this last page make the reason for the contrary make sense I'm curious though. What is the general opinion of trans people on the mental vs physical subject? Are there some who prefer mental treatment over physical modification?

[QUOTE=blerb;46847297] I'm curious though. What is the general opinion of trans people on the mental vs physical subject? Are there some who prefer mental treatment over physical modification?[/QUOTE] I would imagine "mental treatment" would work out about as well as anti-gay therapy would for a homosexual. However i know a guy who has recently come out as trans and for him wearing boys clothing + having short hair is enough to make him happy, im not sure if that could be classed as mental treatment but its made him comfortable without any physical alteration.