Transgender teen leaves note on tumblr blaming Christian parents for suicide - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;46850767]a copy of a response I sent to a PM I got: [url]http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html[/url] this is a relatively concise article with links to various sources for most of what I've said. as for the backlash in LGBT communities, that's a difficult thing to link source for, however: [url]http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psychiatric-disorder-its-sufferers-need-therapy-not-surgery/[/url] this is a personal blog post from BreitBart journalist and LGBT activist Milo Yiannopoulos. it discusses in considerable detail the feelings that many in the community have about the effects of transition surgery and also makes references to some of the sources discussed in the first article. the point was that since transition surgery was invented, it has essentially been accepted as the cure for trans gender people, and thought to be a wholly positive procedure. Reputable people in the medical field, over the years, have grown concerned about what they see in the statistics of people who undergo these surgeries. what the data suggests is that a substantial number of these people are ending up dead. to me, this is a very important issue and the fact that it's mostly ignored is alarming to me.[/QUOTE] It's both ineffective and inconsiderate to respond to well reasoned criticism with links So what, we have to write out responses to you but you get to just point at tangentially related blog posts? Do you expect us to read every page you toss at us and argue with the authors who aren't here? Do you expect us to trawl through your blogs to find the sources you couldn't be assed to link directly to yourself? What's even the point of arguing with you if I'm not arguing with YOU? Unless your views are so identical to Milo Yiannopolous' that they're interchangable.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46850761]As someone who fucking loathes "listen and believe" bullshit, HA isn't doing anything even close.[/QUOTE] I mean just in general, not specifically to HA. I'm just a bit taken aback by how... intense people can be on issues like this. Personally I tend to agree with people like RuPaul... this fight can be won without trying to bludgeon and shame people with traditionalist mentalities. I mean seriously, the only person you can rely on in this world is YOURSELF. Some people need to toughen up a bit and just let people get on with being stupid. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;46850761]What's crazy is that I actually somewhat agree that people with conservative viewpoints are unnecessarily demonized. I actually think that's a point worth bringing up. Just not as a last defense when your bullshit gets wrecked and you can't defend your position logically.[/QUOTE] I just don't see the need to needlessly attack people who aren't in step with current leftist ideas. Personally, I'm left wing. I mean, fuck, I'm gay and I worked for a god damn church minister who didn't agree with gay marriage. I still think he's a lovely man really; he just has traditional ideas. Why the fuck should I be an asshole to him, gay marriage just got fucking legalised... I don't need to rub it in when the practical effect is that I can get married. I dunno, all I'm saying is, can't we be a bit more moderate and more humble in our eventual victory here? To use a car analogy, society is like a car.. the left is the engine, the right is the brakes.. if you go to fast you need to apply the brakes sometimes, as distasteful as that often is. Can't we just continue our journey without shitting all over people? They are more likely to come around with the carrot, not the stick...

[QUOTE=Bruhmis;46850794]I don't know about dark raven, but nothing I've said is conservative. just because I said people are afraid of sounding non-liberal that doesn't make me conservative. there's nothing conservative about thinking that transgender people aren't getting proper treatment.[/QUOTE] like it or not the views you hold are linked with conservatism I don't think that should matter one way or the other in determining how valid they are, but there you go

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850798]I didn't ignore it, I even rated Agree on your post. However, if you cannot alter already set brain chemistry, what about, as someone mentioned in the topic, schizophrenia, depression? Depression is arguably, but researches showed that predisposition is a huge factor of occurrence, ergo another already set brain chemistry, is it not? [B]Why not try using more gender-based steroids in accordance to your sex/gender(?) you were born with?[/B] You failed to recognize the context for the snowflake, so your reply is completely irrelevant. Give me at least a hint of the pages, its not like FP's search tool is google tier. [editline]3rd January 2015[/editline] in what way? im not even a scientist or a doctor, you're just pulling shit out of your ass just to spite my image or what? im as conservative as transphobic[/QUOTE] Because the brain of a trans person [I]is not the brain of the sex they were born as[/I] A trans woman, someone born and raised as a male, [I][U]does not have[/U][/I] a male brain They have a brain more similar to a woman's brain. Not a man's brain. A woman's. They are more closely related to female brain physiology then male. Giving them drugs to try and make their brain more like the sex they were born as would probably do a ton of harm since you'd be giving a woman's brain that's trapped in a man's body (and as such affected by the improper male hormones) stuff to make it even more incorrect.

[QUOTE=st_nick5;46850811]Wasn't the study from 30+ years ago in the John Hopkins hospital already debunked in an earlier post? [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1444050&p=46849360&viewfull=1#post46849360[/url][/QUOTE] one of the links in the first article goes to a study done in 2004 by US and Dutch researchers which produced nearly identical results. I'm not sure when the johns hopkins hospitals made the decision but I do know that their stance hasn't changed since then

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46850836] Giving them drugs to try and make their brain more like the sex they were born as would probably do a ton of harm since you'd be giving a woman's brain that's trapped in a man's body (and as such affected by the improper male hormones) stuff to make it even more incorrect.[/QUOTE] Did anyone try doing that? Or was it all discarded on theoretical level? And why is it necessarily that the brain decides how it wants to live, how it chooses its gender? What if there are just as many cases of gender-confused people, who, for example, have female brain but are totally okay with male gendered bodies?

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46850836]Because the brain of a trans person [I]is not the brain of the sex they were born as[/I] A trans woman, someone born and raised as a male, [I][U]does not have[/U][/I] a male brain They have a brain more similar to a woman's brain. Not a man's brain. A woman's. They are more closely related to female brain physiology then male. Giving them drugs to try and make their brain more like the sex they were born as would probably do a ton of harm since you'd be giving a woman's brain that's trapped in a man's body (and as such affected by the improper male hormones) stuff to make it even more incorrect.[/QUOTE] he doesn't appear to be debating that (maybe he did earlier I don't know). the point I was making, and as far as I know the point he was trying to make, is that transition surgery is not a good way to deal with that condition. more research needs to be done, and the logical place to start would be with psychological methods of treatment.

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;46850826]I mean just in general, not specifically to HA. I'm just a bit taken aback by how... intense people can be on issues like this. Personally I tend to agree with people like RuPaul... this fight can be won without trying to bludgeon and shame people with traditionalist mentalities. I mean seriously, the only person you can rely on in this world is YOURSELF. Some people need to toughen up a bit and just let people get on with being stupid. I just don't see the need to needlessly attack people who aren't in step with current leftist ideas. Personally, I'm left wing. I mean, fuck, I'm gay and I worked for a god damn church minister who didn't agree with gay marriage. I still think he's a lovely man really; he just has traditional ideas. Why the fuck should I be an asshole to him, gay marriage just got fucking legalised... I don't need to rub it in when the practical effect is that I can get married. I dunno, all I'm saying is, can't we be a bit more moderate and more humble in our eventual victory here? To use a car analogy, society is like a car.. the left is the engine, the right is the brakes.. if you go to fast you need to apply the brakes sometimes, as distasteful as that often is. Can't we just continue our journey without shitting all over people? They are more likely to come around with the carrot, not the stick...[/QUOTE] See, the thing is that this a very personal topic. This is something that directly affects a lot of people. So if you expect them to not be offended, you're delusional. If you argue with a grieving mother that heaven is fake and her children are lost to the endless abyss of non existence, you'd be a fucking idiot to expect a calm and collected response. to borrow a phrase, quit tone policing me now if people start arguing that all conservatives be removed and the expression of dissenting views be made bannable, I'll be right there with you arguing against it.

[QUOTE=YourStalker;46850463]In all honesty I don't think I would be able to feel the same way for my child if they were transgender, I can handle gay/lesbian but I dunno, transgender is just too much for me. Not to say I would disown them or anything, I would be accepting but... I don't know, it wouldn't be the same. But what they did to he/she was fucked up, I could never do that to my child.[/QUOTE] When you become a parent (biological ofc) you are basically signing a waiver that says you'll take care of your kid no matter how they turn out. It's one of the most monumental things a couple can do in their lives, so you gotta deal with the baggage that comes with. Can't handle that? You aren't fit to be a parent. You have failed. Adopt, or don't be a fucking parent.

What's the over/under on how many posts this thread has left before being locked?

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46850921]When you become a parent (biological ofc) you are basically signing a waiver that says you'll take care of your kid no matter how they turn out. It's one of the most monumental things a couple can do in their lives, so you gotta deal with the baggage that comes with. Can't handle that? You aren't fit to be a parent. You have failed. Adopt, or don't be a fucking parent.[/QUOTE] Highly controversial, you become a parent to continue your species, and most probably any parent who is wired to do so would be upset that his child is unfit for the task for biological reasons/preferences. Imagine how most parents are both sad and mad when they find out their child was infertile. I know at least two moms who basically excommunicated their children for that, and it wasnt even their fault. Parental instincts can fuck with your brain really hard.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850971]Highly controversial, you become a parent to continue your species, and most probably any parent who is wired to do so would be upset that his child is unfit for the task for biological reasons/preferences. Imagine how most parents are both sad and mad when they find out their child was infertile. I know at least two moms who basically excommunicated their children for that, and it wasnt even their fault. Parental instincts can fuck with your brain really hard.[/QUOTE] if someone excommunicates their children from their family because they can't spawn more gene carriers then they're a fucking lunatic and should be institutionalized

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850971]Highly controversial, you become a parent to continue your species, and most probably any parent who is wired to do so would be upset that his child is unfit for the task for biological reasons/preferences. Imagine how most parents are both sad and mad when they find out their child was infertile. I know at least two moms who basically excommunicated their children for that, and it wasnt even their fault. Parental instincts can fuck with your brain really hard.[/QUOTE] People whose parental instinct gets in the way of their humanity aren't fit to be parents either. If you really want your biological soup to survive you're just going to have to accept that there's a very real possibility that your child will have some sort of disability, be gay/trans, autistic, deformed, or will die early. You don't get to pick and choose. Its a human life, not your RPG create-a-character.

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;46850826]I mean just in general, not specifically to HA. I'm just a bit taken aback by how... intense people can be on issues like this. Personally I tend to agree with people like RuPaul... this fight can be won without trying to bludgeon and shame people with traditionalist mentalities.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure most people in this thread can at the very least respect people with different views if they are presented well enough, even if they disagree with them. It's when idiots like Dark Raven think they are witty by saying stupid shit like "B-but I can't be a dolphin :c" which has been disproven a multitude of times, then doesn't bother to read half the replies he's getting that say it's a stupid outdated idea and then has the nerve to say "I am not against transgender people, I just thought I'd bring up this kin thing." then people get frustrated. Understandably frustrated. Alot of people I see here have posted in many other transgender threads. Like right now it's not even an attack on people for not understanding transgenderism, it's people getting frustrated by ignorance that has been shown in many past threads and the poster has done nothing to curb it. That can happen in any thread, stop pretending it's an attack on people for different opinions. If people are going to come in, make blatantly ridiculous posts, then avoid any informative posts made back to them, I have no problem with people wanting them to fuck off. You can not understand something, yet at the same time not appear like a total idiot. It's not difficult. [QUOTE]I mean, fuck, I'm gay and I worked for a god damn church minister who didn't agree with gay marriage. I still think he's a lovely man really; he just has traditional ideas. Why the fuck should I be an asshole to him, gay marriage just got fucking legalised... I don't need to rub it in when the practical effect is that I can get married. [/QUOTE] This is interesting and all but not at all like what is happening in this thread. [QUOTE]I dunno, all I'm saying is, can't we be a bit more moderate and more humble in our eventual victory here? To use a car analogy, society is like a car.. the left is the engine, the right is the brakes.. if you go to fast you need to apply the brakes sometimes, as distasteful as that often is. Can't we just continue our journey without shitting all over people? They are more likely to come around with the carrot, not the stick...[/QUOTE] What does this even mean. Sometimes we get too progressive so we need to shit on people for no reason other than to 'use the brakes' ?

see, that whole mentality of "continuing the species!" to having children is so incredibly outdated and fuck stupid that i can't even fathom it. we don't need to "continue the species", there are almost 8 fucking billion of us, i don't think we're in danger of dying out any time soon, and if you're concerned that your blood is going to die out, well fucking good, who gives a fuck if your direct bloodline dies out someone somewhere has parts of your blood, genetic diversity isn't going to be a fucking problem and there are enough idiots and other people who are going to fuck anyway and continue the human race that why would you bother? the only reason you should ever have a child is if you want to experience raising a child, all of its ups and downs, all of its successes, failures and the emotional rollercoaster that is trying to figure out why your child is still crying. if you're not willing to take on that mentality for 20+ years, you shouldn't have a child, adopted or otherwise. you raise your child, guide them in the world and you watch them go through life as you went through yours. on a similar note, this exact mentality is present in chinese families. children are born for the express purpose of continuing the bloodline and [I]caring for their parents when they're old[/I]. how fucking selfish is that? taking care of your parents should be a choice, not a job

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;46851135] What does this even mean. Sometimes we get too progressive so we need to shit on people for no reason other than to 'use the brakes' ?[/QUOTE] What's "too progressive"? I'm kinda confused here.

[QUOTE=lintz;46851136] [B]on a similar note, this exact mentality is present in chinese families. children are born for the express purpose of continuing the bloodline and [I]caring for their parents when they're old[/I]. how fucking selfish is that? taking care of your parents should be a choice, not a job[/B][/QUOTE] I don't know, it's working pretty well for them so far. Also that's awfully ethnocentric of you, assuming other practices are "selfish" or "wrong" by basing it off your own cultural upbringing. Cultural relativism is a thing, you know.

hey, funnily enough, [I]i am chinese[/I] i think i have more than enough right to talk about how selfish it is.

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;46850722]listen and believe... why do you care? transfolk are going to get their way at this rate anyway. why crusade against every irrelevant person with a dissenting opinion?[/QUOTE] because this is a discussion board where discussion takes place, and discussion about any charged topic will lead to degrees of animosity. we're all posting on an internet forum, it's not like he's going to get PTSD from people getting pissed at him over his beliefs. of course, the corollary to that is that the discussion might not mean much in terms of political change, but a debate is more about the people watching than the people arguing, and those people happen to vote. one side is being mean about someone's beliefs, the other has beliefs that are inherently (even if not intentionally) mean. which do you think is more dangerous? [QUOTE=Bruhmis;46850590]^ this is why I didn't bother continuing that argument in this thread. because this is what happens no matter what get's posted. I make a couple very brief posts highlighting the fact that a user is being flamed when they're being respectful and at least attempting to be constructive and open minded, and the response I get is [B]5[/B] people responding to me with "AGH UR NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE THREAD BRAINDEAD MORON MANCHILD".[/QUOTE] then just stop posting nobody's forcing you to post in this thread, you know

[QUOTE=lintz;46851136]on a similar note, this exact mentality is present in chinese families. children are born for the express purpose of continuing the bloodline and [I]caring for their parents when they're old[/I]. how fucking selfish is that? taking care of your parents should be a choice, not a job[/QUOTE] You know, the reason children may often look after their parents is because, well, their parents raised them. It's equally selfish to abandon your elderly parents when they spent years raising you. The children who stick their parents in a nursing home and don't visit or keep in contact are the worst. You want to know why a lot of old people feel lonely, depressed, commit suicide? It surely can't be their children and grandchildren not caring about them?

of course it's selfish to leave your parents without a second thought, i'm not going to argue about that. however, the way my mum explained it to me sounded like (and i have debated this with her countless times and her reasoning has never changed) she believed the reason people exist is to have children and then when they get old their children have to take care of them. and that's wrong. if i want to take care of my parents, it should because i'm thankful for all the years they've taken care of me, so now it's my turn to take care of them and set them up with holidays and shit. it shouldn't be because i'm obliged to. moreover, no one's obliged to take care of their parents if they're shitty

[QUOTE=Deng;46851242]You know, the reason children may often look after their parents is because, well, their parents raised them. It's equally selfish to abandon your elderly parents when they spent years raising you. The children who stick their parents in a nursing home and don't visit or keep in contact are the worst. You want to know why a lot of old people feel lonely, depressed, commit suicide? It surely can't be their children and grandchildren not caring about them?[/QUOTE] Don't ignore the other side of this appeal-to-emotion coin. Kids are human beings. They have the choice to help their parents or not, which depends entirely on their upbringing. For every asshole kid that leaves his parents to die, there's kids that have a good reason to abandon them. And kids that didn't outlive their parents. And kids that simply can't. The mentality that kids HAVE to care for their parents is wack as hell. They didn't decide to be born and be forced to repay that debt. The PARENT chose to have them.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46851393]Don't ignore the other side of this appeal-to-emotion coin. Kids are human beings. They have the choice to help their parents or not, which depends entirely on their upbringing. For every asshole kid that leaves his parents to die, there's kids that have a good reason to abandon them. And kids that didn't outlive their parents. And kids that simply can't. The mentality that kids HAVE to care for their parents is wack as hell. They didn't decide to be born and be forced to repay that debt. The PARENT chose to have them.[/QUOTE] The parent had them, but unless the parent fucked up, I don't see why children should be free to abandon their family. I mean, the model whereby large families had everybody looked out for each other has worked extremely well throughout human history and its why its a stable social institution that is prevalent throughout multiple cultures. You are not obliged to look after your parents, but it reflects poorly on you if you abandon them. One of the things that people generally pride themselves on is that we look after the vulnerable in society. This includes the old and infirm. It's not an appeal to emotion, but something basic to a functioning society, in that family members look out and care for each other.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850665]Since we begin on calling me transphobic, I'm not, because I do not even fucking care about what people do to their bodies. Most I can say is whether I like the appeal/appearance or not, beyond that trying to convince a person he did a wrong tattoo or dick or hair color for himself is retarded. I see a lot of people took really big offence from my comparison, which is still making me giggle, but IMO from you "pro-trans-actually-trans" guys' side you're just trying to overkill anyone who looks wrong at you, which is stupid.[/QUOTE] Well I'm sorry if I take offense to someone saying that an intrinsic part of my person is wrong. [quote] The only thing I'm partially ignorant of on this topic is whether it is actually a treatable medical condition or not, because as I see most of you people claim that jumping the ship for another gender if you identify so is the correct resolution, but why not use medication to put everything back on its places like Mother Nature wanted it to be?[/quote] Who the hell are you to speak for mother nature? Disregarding the fallacy of believing that there is a concrete natural order that pertains to the human psyche.

[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;46851163]What's "too progressive"? I'm kinda confused here.[/QUOTE] I have no idea, that's why I asked what the hell it meant. This is what I am getting: Society = car Left = engine. Engine pushes society forward, like progressing. Right = Brakes. Stops the engine pushing, or stops society progressing. He said sometimes you just need to put on the brakes. So apparently sometimes you just need to stop progressing too fast? Why? I don't understand.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;46851767]american society is on the far end of the highway trying to make its way to town and the majority of europe is sitting at town driving in circles[/QUOTE]but who makes the cars?

[QUOTE=Joazzz;46851806]but who makes the cars?[/QUOTE] China. They make everything.....

[QUOTE=Joazzz;46851806]but who makes the cars?[/QUOTE] poor asian slaveworkers.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850798]in what way? im not even a scientist or a doctor, you're just pulling shit out of your ass just to spite my image or what?[/QUOTE] Leelah's parents.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46850971]Highly controversial, you become a parent to continue your species, and most probably any parent who is wired to do so would be upset that his child is unfit for the task for biological reasons/preferences. Imagine how most parents are both sad and mad when they find out their child was infertile. I know at least two moms who basically excommunicated their children for that, and it wasnt even their fault. Parental instincts can fuck with your brain really hard.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's biologically correct. Were we in a desperate struggle for our specie's continued existence you'd even be right. But in a first world country, you should actively try to think of stuff before you feel them.