The opposition has won the Venezuelan parliamentary elections by a landslide. - Polidicks

The people most upset by these results are the corrupt kleptocrats who benefitted from the regime and insulated western socialists.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;49265660]Jesus Christ you really don't understand the fucking distortion here. And you won't, really, because you're a fool, but I'll keep trying.[/QUOTE] Don't bother, he's talking out of his ass. [editline]7th December 2015[/editline] Apparently an American knows more about Venezuelan politics than an actual Venezuelan. Wow.

Just so it's clear, there are NO neoliberalist parties in the MUD. Chuo Torrealba, Teodoro Petkoff, Ismael Garcia, Freddy Guevara and other leaders of the MUD are all so far left they wouldn't even be considered Democrats in the US. There is more than 3 parties in the MUD that are subscribed to Socialist International. The opposition is not right wing. The opposition by now spans a gamut of different political views, and what binds the opposition together is the common disapproval of the current administration of Venezuela.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49265627]This. Venezuela was neither socialist nor a dictatorship. If it was, some western-aligned, privately funded liberal opposition would have been crushed and its wealthy backers (finally) expropriated. It's the fact that the state and property owning elite are untouched is why this opposition could come back into power. It is representing the interests of the Venezuelan ruling class, whereas the PSUV lost such a mandate with the inflexible populist policies and mismanagement during a time of falling oil prices. As usual, politics is just a response to economic realities and effectively the management of the affairs of the nation's elite. This is neither a democratic triumph nor a defeat to socialism, it's just capitalism as usual, and that's what made maduro a 'dictator'. We are trading state capitalism for liberal capitalism, because of interests never actually assaulted by Chavistas.[/QUOTE] If Venezuela wasn't socialist why the hell has virtually every socialist in the western hemisphere spent the past decade defending what was clearly a shitty government? There's been so many people who defended it and now that it's been thrown out by a genuine democratic mandate by the people it somehow never socialist? Anyone remember those big campaigns against poverty which were praised before the weak economy collapsed?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49265662]The people most upset by these results are the corrupt kleptocrats who benefitted from the regime and insulated western socialists.[/QUOTE] I haven't met a single western socialist IRL or online that shed tears over Chavez, let alone maduro who is even more disliked. Nobody regards the regime as socialist, just a mix of reformism and state capitalism, and they're too busy getting a boner over rojava. In the past discussions about Venezuela are filled more with criticism than praise, but there was some tacit support, yes, mostly among tankies. All socialists and Marxists are just going to regard this as just business as usual in a capitalist state. Nobody had any illusions about socialism through the ballot box and based on a state capitalist oil economy. Don't confuse opposition to liberal capitalism to support for Venezuela's 'socialism', it was the only reason why some socialists talked about social gains. That ship has sailed, pretty much every congregation of socialists I've seen in the past couple years are keen to dispel any illusions about Chavez, and maduro was regarded as not only just as limited as his predecessor, but even more ineffective and incompetent. As for MUD and neoliberalism, those parties in the international are irrelevant, and we saw how fast the market socialism of warsaw pact dissidents was thrown away under advice and guidance of the West.

I heard on the news that the winning party is trying to release the political prisioner of Maduro's goverment, this is really big news for venezolanos. Hope the country starts rebulding itself and the lines of people waiting for food are no more.

[QUOTE=Octavius;49265456]Are we not going to mention that the Cart Center found the elections in Venezuela to be democratic?[/QUOTE] Hey guys, [URL="http://www.cartercenter.org/peace/democracy/index.html"]an American non-profit[/URL] said the elections are legit, don't listen to the Venezuelan who [I]lives there[/I] when he tells you the government was a de facto dictatorship. This argument is settled because the Cart(er) Center said so. I mean, wow, are you now gonna start telling me that Harper was actually a great Prime Minister and didn't silence government scientists from speaking out about climate change? :v:

[QUOTE=Conscript;49265737]I haven't met a single western socialist IRL or online that shed tears over Chavez, let alone maduro who is even more disliked. Nobody regards the regime as socialist, just a mix of reformism and state capitalism, and they're too busy getting a boner over rojava. In the past discussions about Venezuela are filled more with criticism than praise, but there was some tacit support, yes, mostly among tankies. All socialists and Marxists are just going to regard this as just business as usual in a capitalist state. Nobody had any illusions about socialism through the ballot box and based on a state capitalist oil economy. Don't confuse opposition to liberal capitalism to support for Venezuela's 'socialism', it was the only reason why some socialists talked about social gains. That ship has sailed, pretty much every congregation of socialists I've seen in the past couple years are keen to dispel any illusions about Chavez, and maduro was regarded as not only just as limited as his predecessor, but even more ineffective and incompetent. As for MUD and neoliberalism, those parties in the international are irrelevant, and we saw how fast the market socialism of warsaw pact dissidents was thrown away under advice and guidance of the West.[/QUOTE] you clearly haven't been looking very hard Maybe its just because we have Jeremy over here who makes it obvious but he was one of the many praising Venezuela's socialism

Just to be clear, I'm not stating some sadness that the PSUV lost. They needed to loose, they had shit policies and are definitely not capable of running Venezuela. I'm not going to cry over their loss, cause they and Maduro are definitely trash. Let's be clear though, the democratic process in Venezuela in, and has consistently been, in tact. Again, perhaps the reason the Cater Center has validated every elections is because they are valid. Just because they result in something you disagree with does not mean that somebody cheated. Again, I'm not trying to deny the general degree to which corruption exists in the country, because to do so would be ridiculous. With this in mind though, the opposition has not been cheated out of any electoral victories. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49265723]If Venezuela wasn't socialist why the hell has virtually every socialist in the western hemisphere spent the past decade defending what was clearly a shitty government? There's been so many people who defended it and now that it's been thrown out by a genuine democratic mandate by the people it somehow never socialist?[/QUOTE] Western socialists have been defending it mainly on a basis of anti-imperialism and the hope that the Bolivarian revolution would continue to socialism. Most analyses I've seen have constantly recognized the fact that Venezuela is not socialist. Either way, I've never really been a huge fan. [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49265783]Hey guys, [URL="http://www.cartercenter.org/peace/democracy/index.html"]an American non-profit[/URL] said the elections are legit, don't listen to the Venezuelan who [I]lives there[/I] when he tells you the government was a de facto dictatorship. This argument is settled because the Cart(er) Center said so. I mean, wow, are you now gonna start telling me that Harper was actually a great Prime Minister and didn't silence government scientists from speaking out about climate change? :v:[/QUOTE] But no, my view simply can't be accurate because I'm and American and a Venezuelan has a differing view! If I'm to claim that America is actually a run by a space Nazi regime and Obama is a lizard, can nobody disagree with me because they live in a different country? Like holy shit, how fucking dumb do you have to be to claim that. And do you mean to discredit the findings because it's an American NGO? Should we immediately ignore claims of electoral inconsistency in Venezuela previously because such claims have also been supported by the American government, supported groups, and NGOs?

[QUOTE=FalconHBFS;49265754]I heard on the news that the winning party is trying to release the political prisioner of Maduro's goverment, this is really big news for venezolanos. Hope the country starts rebulding itself and the lines of people waiting for food are no more.[/QUOTE] They're planning an amnesty law to free the political prisoners, as well as laws targeting our absurd crime rate. I also can only assume that they're planning to remove the prosecutor commander Luisa Ortega Diaz as well, and remove any other Maduro appointed judges to restore the Judicial power as well. Getting rid of Tibisay Lucena (AKA the reason why the results are announced 6 hours after the election ends every time) and her sidekicks in the National Electoral Center would be great for increasing transparency, as well as giving the comptroller general position to somebody not involved with the government as it should be. Hopefully, if Maduro doesn't go insane and starts passing laws up until December 15th when the current assembly goes to recess, we will have, starting 2016, a whole different country in the making, one that will hopefully fix the economic crisis (Which isn't hard, just remove the currency exchanges and you're golden), and forces the government to start working for all the Venezuelan people again. [QUOTE=Octavius;49265799] Let's be clear though, the democratic process in Venezuela in, and has consistently been, in tact. Again, perhaps the reason the Cater Center has validated every elections is because they are valid. Just because they result in something you disagree with does not mean that somebody cheated. Again, I'm not trying to deny the general degree to which corruption exists in the country, because to do so would be ridiculous. With this in mind though, the opposition has not been cheated out of any electoral victories.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah they've been just peachy, yeah. Even though just yesterday former president of Bolivia Jorge Quiroga [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=povN2i4A6yw]stated yesterday that the government does not follow the electoral laws[/url] according to what he witnessed as an official observer in yesterday's election, [url=http://andrespastrana.org/declaracion-los-expresidentes-conforman-grupo-idea-al-concluir-mision-venezuela/]supported by Andres Quiroga, former president of Colombia, claiming the very same thing.[/url] Just by the way, for saying these things on national TV, they had their press credentials [I]revoked by the National Electoral Center.[/I] That's some transparency, yeah? True, the fact that we were able to win THIS election means that the votes at least do something. It doesn't mean that the government plays fair, it doesn't mean that at all.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49265791]you clearly haven't been looking very hard Maybe its just because we have Jeremy over here who makes it obvious but he was one of the many praising Venezuela's socialism[/QUOTE] Jeremy Corbyn? There's another figure, along with bernie sanders, western socialists attack from the left regularly and dispel illusions about. You guys seem to be confusing socialists for social democrats and left liberals.

[QUOTE=Octavius;49265799]Again, perhaps the reason the Cater Center has validated every elections is because they are valid.[/QUOTE] FWEEEEEEET. Yellow card, unsupported tautology. Also how hard is it to spell "Carter"? :v

[QUOTE=Octavius;49263450]Oh no! Looks like you're fantasy of Venezuela being some undemocratic dictatorship isn't true! Just cry that it's undemocratic, that is, until you win.[/QUOTE] Do you really not remember the last election? Like, almost Putin level disparity between poll numbers and """votes.""" I was crushed for the Venezuelan people and I'm a pollack living in Texas.

I can't believe something good is actually happening in my home country. Still a long way to go, but we're going in the [I]right [/I]direction. Can't wait for the day when I'll be able to go safely to Venezuela and visit again my mom's family. [IMG]http://puu.sh/lMl2Z/e60a0bcf0f.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Conscript;49265806]Jeremy Corbyn? There's another figure, along with bernie sanders, western socialists attack from the left regularly and dispel illusions about. You guys seem to be confusing socialists for social democrats and left liberals.[/QUOTE] Are you a parody? [editline]7th December 2015[/editline] You clearly don't have a clue.

[QUOTE=Android phone;49265890]Do you really not remember the last election? Like, almost Putin level disparity between poll numbers and """votes.""" I was crushed for the Venezuelan people and I'm a pollack living in Texas.[/QUOTE] You mean the last election with very erratic polling results, generally in favor of the PSUV, which made the results not necessarily too surprising? [QUOTE=Big Bang;49265804]True, the fact that we were able to win THIS election means that the votes at least do something. It doesn't mean that the government plays fair, it doesn't mean that at all.[/QUOTE] Correct, it does not mean that the government plays completely fair. But they haven't stolen any elections form the opposition. The electoral process has consistently been fine. There are exterior factors to worry about to a degree, but never to a degree that meant the losing or winning of an election. [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;49265820]Also how hard is it to spell "Carter"? :v[/QUOTE] It's pretty difficult when I'm typing my responses as quick as I can without looking back at all cause I'm also getting ready for one of my finals. Here I'll try again though: xarter. fuck.

[QUOTE=Octavius;49265937]Correct, it does not mean that the government plays completely fair. But they haven't stolen any elections form the opposition. The electoral process has consistently been fine. There are exterior factors to worry about to a degree, but never to a degree that meant the losing or winning of an election.[/QUOTE] Just what the fuck are you talking about? If one side can gift houses to people in exchange for votes and the other side can't, how is this a fair election? How is that equal? How is this democracy? I think what you don't understand is that a government can be autocratic and still have elections. There's dozens of states like that, who have perfectly functional electoral systems too, but the factor controlling these elections is always external, as in, for example, in Cuba, if you run against the government you can get suppressed, and therefore cannot run in the elections. The government accomplishes this in a less direct way (well, somewhat, I mean, they did imprison Leopoldo Lopez and Antonio Ledezma who is the democratically elected mayor of the Greater Caracas area) but it is to attain the exact same goal. Due to the fact that the government controls the courts, nothing ever comes out of any attempts to denounce this favoritism and illegal campaigning. To the contrary, everything that doesn't benefit them they're VERY quick to shut down. Like, I mean, in this election, there was quite literally a party calling itself MIN Unidad, which put itself RIGHT next to MUD in the ballot deliberately, and copied its logo (By making the "MIN" part tiny and increasing the font size of "Unidad" in a similar font and color to the MUD), it's party slogan was "We're the opposition", they also distributed fliers to further paint themselves as being the actual opposition party, and set up tents right next to wherever MUD had placed them in order to appear connected to them. Guess what? They supported the government, its party leader, William Ojeda used to be in the PSUV, and the National Electoral Center ignored any complaints from the opposition that this party was made just to confuse voters into not voting for MUD. That shit doesn't happen in an actual democracy, where every party has equal opportunities of winning.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49265916]Are you a parody? [editline]7th December 2015[/editline] You clearly don't have a clue.[/QUOTE] [Url=https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/08/15/corb-a15.html?view=article_mobile]You are so full of shit. [/URL] Socialists consistently attack the likes of Corbyn, Sanders, Tsipras, and yes Chavez and Maduro. Such figures are regarded as a very pink kind of 'socialism' (i.e. social democracy, left liberalism, eurosocialism) that could only exist in the neoliberal era when socialism is much less prevalent.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49266050][Url=https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/08/15/corb-a15.html?view=article_mobile]You are so full of shit. [/URL] Socialists consistently attack the likes of Corbyn, Sanders, Tsipras, and yes Chavez and Maduro. Such figures are regarded as a very pink kind of 'socialism' (i.e. social democracy, left liberalism, eurosocialism) that could only exist in the neoliberal era when socialism is much less prevalent.[/QUOTE] so basically you pull some irrelevant idiots out of the woods and claim they represent socialism instead of the more well known politicians okay

[QUOTE=Octavius;49265937]Correct, it does not mean that the government plays completely fair. But they haven't stolen any elections form the opposition. The electoral process has consistently been fine. There are exterior factors to worry about to a degree, but never to a degree that meant the losing or winning of an election.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index[/url] [quote]100 Venezuela 5.07 Hybrid regime[/quote] according to this index, venezuela isn't a functioning democracy

That index is managed by an Atlanticist, neoliberal paper. Even the map it produces looks like a liberalism-o-meter for states the West approves of. Still, doesn't look anything exceptional for Latin America. [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49266059]so basically you pull some irrelevant idiots out of the woods and claim they represent socialism instead of the more well known politicians okay[/QUOTE] Whatever dude. If you need the likes of Corbyn to fuel your anti-socialist hysteria then by all means. Just don't be surprised that when you go around pronouncing the defeat of 'socialism' the left points out the shallowness of the victory and the socialism. I don't want to hear you crying no true scotsman or something to do with hindsight, basically projecting onto us to form an association, in order to fuel a laughable right wing zeitgeist whenever a 'socialist ' leaves state office.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49266059]so basically you pull some irrelevant idiots out of the woods and claim they represent socialism instead of the more well known politicians okay[/QUOTE] I may not like the WSWS, but lets not be so mean to it. The only group I can think of that has been very close to the Bolivarian revolution is the International Marxist Tendency. The Committee for a Worker's International (CWI), International Committee of the Fourth International, International Socialist Organization here in the US, and many other groups do not see Venezuela as socialist. Many have been critically supportive of some changes, but have not declared it 'socialist'. [url]http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5706[/url] That's one a piece by the CWI there and you can see this is true in it.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49266158]That index is managed by an Atlanticist, neoliberal paper. Even the map it produces looks like a liberalism-o-meter for states the West approves of. Still, doesn't look anything exceptional for Latin America. Whatever dude. If you need the likes of Corbyn to fuel your anti-socialist hysteria then by all means. Just don't be surprised that when you go around pronouncing the defeat of 'socialism' the left points out the shallowness of the victory and the socialism. I don't want to hear you crying no true scotsman or something to do with hindsight, basically projecting onto us to form an association, in order to fuel a laughable right wing zeitgeist whenever a 'socialist ' leaves state office.[/QUOTE] alright then if the true socialists are these irrelevant people then socialist really is well and truly dead, thank you for alerting me

Sure. I'll also alert you when to worry about it again. For now, your worries are a mix of anti-austerity left populists and anti-atlantic European nationalists, and wherever they mesh like on globalization, international finance, neoliberalism, opposition to foreign policy in Syria and Ukraine, etc. I was listening to Bill Maher discuss this and the consensus was that socialism and fascism are dead, nobody wants Putinism, yet a lot of people are rejecting what the West brought after the cold war. They're embracing illiberalism and rejecting economic and/or social liberalism, they're not as inclined to fight russia and for 'europe' as the Atlantic conceives it. This is perhaps best captured by the governments of Poland (except on Russia), Hungary, Austria, Turkey, Russia, and other central or eastern European countries with less liberal traditions than the West.

[QUOTE=Octavius;49266167]I may not like the WSWS, but lets not be so mean to it. The only group I can think of that has been very close to the Bolivarian revolution is the International Marxist Tendency. The Committee for a Worker's International (CWI), International Committee of the Fourth International, International Socialist Organization here in the US, and many other groups do not see Venezuela as socialist. Many have been critically supportive of some changes, but have not declared it 'socialist'. [url]http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5706[/url] That's one a piece by the CWI there and you can see this is true in it.[/QUOTE] it blames the failure of the bolivarian revolution on the fact it wasn't radical enough, hence it allowed the nebulous rightwing to recover with the complete collapse of the economy, the bankruptcy of the state, the corruption of law enforcement, the political prisoners, and the attempt to annex 2/3rds of guyana, it seems like an odd thing to say that "what the country needed was a more radical socialism" the reality is that if they tried that, venezuela would be in the midst of a civil war and/or genocide right now [QUOTE=Conscript;49266158]That index is managed by an Atlanticist, neoliberal paper. Even the map it produces looks like a liberalism-o-meter for states the West approves of. Still, doesn't look anything exceptional for Latin America.[/QUOTE] so basically you're ignoring the numerous problems with democracy in the country

Man, people still try to debate with Conscript? I thought it was pretty well established that he believes the crap about the collapse of various communist states being a western/capitalist conspiracy rather than down to underlying failings with the execution of the concepts by the states.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;49266483]Man, people still try to debate with Conscript? I thought it was pretty well established that he believes the crap about the collapse of various communist states being a western/capitalist conspiracy rather than down to underlying failings with the execution of the concepts by the states.[/QUOTE] Do you regularly make shit up about people you disagree with? This is probably dumbest, most simplified summary of my ideas I've ever seen, and it doesn't even apply to what I'm saying in this thread. [QUOTE]so basically you're ignoring the numerous problems with democracy in the country[/quote] I see you're already retreating from the word dictatorship. But no, I'm just pointing out whose definition of democracy you're using.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49266521]Do you regularly make shit up about people you disagree with? This is probably dumbest, most simplified summary of my ideas I've ever seen, and it doesn't even apply to what I'm saying in this thread. I see you're already retreating from the word dictatorship. But no, I'm just pointing out whose definition of democracy you're using.[/QUOTE] Hybrid Regime = Not a democracy.

[QUOTE=Conscript;49266521] I see you're already retreating from the word dictatorship. But no, I'm just pointing out whose definition of democracy you're using.[/QUOTE] It's a hybrid regime, with a single party that has always ruled everything and done whatever it wanted and would regularly fiddle with election results. The government's actions drove the economy into the dirt and the people had little say in it, and the only organization calling it legitimate was a [I]private organization[/I]. It's as much as a democracy as Russia is: Not

[QUOTE=Conscript;49266521]I see you're already retreating from the word dictatorship. But no, I'm just pointing out whose definition of democracy you're using.[/QUOTE] the most accurate term is anocracy an anocracy (in most cases) is usually an unstable form of political system that is a mix of authoritarianism and democracy. usually it is turning from one into another i'd classify venezuela as being a more open anocracy, but it's still not really a democracy