Catalonia has declared independence - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52827056]No, they won't. How many countries in EU support Catalonia and back their independence?[/QUOTE] I do. Fuckin fight me Rajoy I'll fukn wrek you

[QUOTE=laserpanda;52827371]Quite a lot condemned use of force by Spain though. Only a few outright said they wouldn't recognise Catalonia as an independent state, most just said the referendum was an internal issue.[/QUOTE] Why would any country want to recognize it though? To embolden their own independence movements? To weaken the sixth largest economy in Europe, and conversely the EU aswell? Not to mention its completely against the inherent federalizing nature of the EU. It's in no one's interest apart from Catalonians themselves, but given the likely consequences, I doubt even that.

[QUOTE=Kecske;52827412]It's in no one's interest apart from Catalonians themselves, but given the likely consequences, I doubt even that.[/QUOTE] What about the the support of Grand Strategy enthusiast gamers vocaling the 'will of the people' on FP?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827421]Its not even in Catalonia's best interests to leave. If they actually declare independence, and get it, then they're flat out not getting into the EU again (Spain will block them), they'll lose TONS of revenue from tourism and farming, and i'd be surprised if Spain didn't inflict massive tariffs on products from Catalonia. I'd honestly give an independent Catalonia around 3 months before they fall into "failed state" status.[/QUOTE] Quite pessimistic of you there! Who knows what could happen, I mean Trump promised he would make America great again.. Right?!?! Right...? Catalonia has cultural differences and Spain has been quite neglectful about their regions "Catalonia was conquered in 1715 during the War of the Spanish Succession, and Madrid has oppressed the Catalans’ language and culture ever since.". Most parts of the country are completely different to the main region (Madrid). Basque for example, main languages are firstly Basque then Spanish/French. If anyone thought UK had cultural issues, just look at Spain. Amazing how they held it all together

Godspeed, Catalonia. Either way this goes, it's going to get a lot worse soon before it gets a lot better.

[QUOTE=joshthesmith;52827452]Quite pessimistic of you there! Who knows what could happen, I mean Trump promised he would make America great again.. Right?!?! Right...? Catalonia has cultural differences and Spain has been quite neglectful about their regions "Catalonia was conquered in 1715 during the War of the Spanish Succession, and Madrid has oppressed the Catalans’ language and culture ever since.". Most parts of the country are completely different to the main region (Madrid). Basque for example, main languages are firstly Basque then Spanish/French. If anyone thought UK had cultural issues, just look at Spain. Amazing how they held it all together[/QUOTE] Chalk off a few years, and now [URL="https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-catalan/catalan-language-revival-fuels-backlash-in-spain-idUSKBN0FJ2E920140714"]schools have [I]few [/I]hours of spanish[/URL] and you can [URL="https://www.thelocal.es/20160426/catalonia-nearly-triples-fines-against-shops-for-not-using-catalan"]get fined if your sign isn't in catalan[/URL]. I wouldn't say they're helping.

I'm hoping the UK recognises Catalonia, ought to start a petition for it actually.

Hi Garry I'd like my Catalan flag thanks.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52827546]I'm hoping the UK recognises Catalonia, ought to start a petition for it actually.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't that encourage Scottish independence. Same reason why Spain didn't want an independant Scotland.

[QUOTE=Omesh;52827631]Wouldn't that encourage Scottish independence. Same reason why Spain didn't want an independant Scotland.[/QUOTE] Why would it encourage it when they already had a very recent referendum and voted no?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52827688]Why would it encourage it when they already had a very recent referendum and voted no?[/QUOTE] Brexit has led to another wave of calls for it.

[QUOTE=joshthesmith;52827452]Quite pessimistic of you there![/QUOTE] He is just not being delusional about it, unlike most people here. Then again, people tend to impulsively cheer for independence movements, without giving much thought about the consequences (case in point: Kurdistan and their current situation). Also some food for thought, just in case any of you thought Brexit was unfair: [t]https://i.imgur.com/uA3yZU0.png[/t]

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;52827063]This is bad, if they succeed it'll set a bad precedent which could lead to Europe fracturing, which we can't afford to happen with the way Russia's been acting. (Small wonder the Russian Twitter bots have been going off supporting Catalonia's independence huh?)[/QUOTE] You wouldve been supporting Russia fracturing in return yourself. Dont be hypocritical.

[QUOTE=Erfly;52827704]Brexit has led to another wave of calls for it.[/QUOTE] What a shame, since Scotland already had their vote. Give it another decade, not another couple of years before another referendum is held.

I wonder how would people take this if California declared independence from the USA. I mean, I am going to repeat this until my hands will fall over, but this is a bullshit of a movement and is illegal by constitution. WRITTEN constitution to be clear, and signed by the representants of the populations of 1975. Do you really think Spain will just wave goodbye this way? [QUOTE=CruelAddict;52827720]You wouldve been supporting Russia fracturing in return yourself. Dont be hypocritical.[/QUOTE] Exactly, what's better, a Russia that is fractured or an Europe that is already fractured and not a federation being fractured even more? Just asking in here.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827762]I wonder how would people take this if California declared independence from the USA. I mean, I am going to repeat this until my hands will fall over, but this is a bullshit of a movement and is illegal by constitution. WRITTEN constitution to be clear, and signed by the representants of the populations of 1975. Do you really think Spain will just wave goodbye this way?[/QUOTE] Oh, I guess Baltic states should return to motherland then as their independence was illegal.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52827720]You wouldve been supporting Russia fracturing in return yourself. Dont be hypocritical.[/QUOTE] I'm all for Russia being brought down a notch actually, yes.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827762]I wonder how would people take this if California declared independence from the USA. I mean, I am going to repeat this until my hands will fall over, but this is a bullshit of a movement and is illegal by constitution. WRITTEN constitution to be clear, and signed by the representants of the populations of 1975. [/QUOTE] Difference between Catalonia and California is, California does not have their own separate language, culture, and political structure. They haven't even pushed for 'autonomy'. They have as equal rights in the US as any other state and citizen. And they have not decades and centuries of oppression from the rest of the country of all the above listed.

[QUOTE=Mifil;52827772]Oh, I guess Baltic states should return to motherland then as their independence was illegal.[/QUOTE] Let me check. Mmm, as far as I remember, Poland and Estonia suffered a lot under USSR. While Catalonia... I didn't knew it was a communist state, ran by a dictator Mussolini-like and being oppressed much alike the kurds. Please, before telling me bullshit, remember that Catalonia voted because "my autonomy" and is the spanish version of fucking Venice on many degrees. From populistic bullshit to a "we want inmdependence" shit. They knew they were breaking the constitutional law. They are gonna get what's expected. And no, this is a democracy. But a democracy has STILL to respect the law of a constitution unless is a brutal one. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52827787]Difference between Catalonia and California is, California does not have their own separate language, culture, and political structure. They haven't even pushed for 'autonomy'. They have as equal rights in the US as any other state and citizen. And they have not decades and centuries of oppression from the rest of the country of all the above listed.[/QUOTE] I don't see anything that indicated that catalonians are oppressed still. Show me documents that tells me that Catalonia has been oppressed. I dare you to show me at least one [U][B]certified[/B][/U] document that says that Catalonia has been oppressed by Spain. I am asking for this. Because going by the logic "they have a different culture" then even my country should be separated. Northern League was born for this before Salvini became secretary. Hell, fucking Switzerland should be separated because their cultures are different. EVEN YOUR COUNTRY should be separated because, how much you like, your cultures are different. I don't think a california guy can live that well in Minnesota for example. Everyone is goddamn different and there will always be a culture. But fracturing in those times for useless shit and not because a gfovernment is oppressive torwards a population is just a dick move and a shot in the foot.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827788] While Catalonia... I didn't knew it was a communist state, ran by a dictator Mussolini-like and being oppressed much alike the kurds. [/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Under_Franco.27s_rule_.281939.E2.80.931975.29]No oppression here, nope, none at all![/url]

[QUOTE=Hick2;52827807][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Under_Franco.27s_rule_.281939.E2.80.931975.29]No oppression here, nope, none at all![/url][/QUOTE] No fucking shit, IT WAS A DICTATORSHIP. By this logic, even nowadays my fucking country should be separated. Instead here we are. As a republic.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827788]Let me check. Mmm, as far as I remember, Poland and Estonia suffered a lot under USSR. While Catalonia... I didn't knew it was a communist state, ran by a dictator Mussolini-like and being oppressed much alike the kurds. Please, before telling me bullshit, remember that Catalonia voted because "my autonomy" and is the spanish version of fucking Venice on many degrees. From populistic bullshit to a "we want inmdependence" shit. They knew they were breaking the constitutional law. They are gonna get what's expected. And no, this is a democracy. But a democracy has STILL to respect the law of a constitution unless is a brutal one.[/QUOTE] Okay, let me explain. 1. Catalonia also suffered a lot under Spanish rule since the Iberian Wedding. You also seem to forget someone that won a Spanish Civil war in 1939 and his regime. 2. Spain isn't a communist state, yes. But the status of being a democracy is irrelevant, when it comes to lawfulness. Prussia also was lawful and it didn't stop them from Kulturkampf. 3. Catalonians voted because they have a feeling of being a nation that differs itself from Spain. Because Spain doesn't recognize it as a clear different culture. Not because "autonomy". 4. Stalin and Mussolini aren't comparable and you know that. Also post-Stalinist USSR wasn't as repressful as the former one. 5. Define a "brutal" law. I do believe this law hurts Catalonians, especially artice 155.

[QUOTE=Mifil;52827824]Okay, let me explain. 1. Catalonia also suffered a lot under Spanish rule since the Iberian Wedding. You also seem to forget someone that won a Spanish Civil war in [B]1939[/B] and his regime. 2. Spain isn't a communist state, yes. But the status of being a democracy is irrelevant, when it comes to lawfulness. Prussia also was lawful and it didn't stop them from Kulturkampf. 3. Catalonians voted because they have a feeling of being a nation that differs itself from Spain. Because Spain doesn't recognize it a clear different culture. Not because "autonomy". 4. Stalin and Mussolini aren't comparable and you know that. Also post-Stalinist USSR wasn't as repressful as the former one. 5. Define a "brutal" law. I do believe this law hurts Catalonians, especially artice 155.[/QUOTE] here a mistake. 1) Spain has been a dictatorship until 1975, so is not a surprise if Catalonia got oppressed. 2) Again, show me documents that tells me that recently, AKA after 1975, Catalonia got oppressed. As far as I know, this shitshow could have been better for all if they followed the so scary [B][U]Bureaucracy[/U][/B] we all are afraid of. 3) Again, read above. If they actually proposed to change the constitution, this shitshow would have not happened. 4) In this one I am wrong and I admit it. Also I have been awake since 4 AM and am not active that much. 5) Colour me surprised. US would use brute force if California declared independence for example and that would hurt both americans and californians. Is best for Spain AND catalonia if they remain together. By this, I condemn what and how Spain acted, but as two wrongs does not make a right, I do not support the Catalan independence.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827762]I wonder how would people take this if California declared independence from the USA. I mean, I am going to repeat this until my hands will fall over, but this is a bullshit of a movement and is illegal by constitution. WRITTEN constitution to be clear, and signed by the representants of the populations of 1975. Do you really think Spain will just wave goodbye this way? Exactly, what's better, a Russia that is fractured or an Europe that is already fractured and not a federation being fractured even more? Just asking in here.[/QUOTE] In the case of California iirc US doesn't have any rules for leaving to begin with. Is the nonexistence of rules or outright saying the country is indivisible supposed to be legitimate? I never really saw the sense in that. For Spain I'm not really sure what rules they have for secession, but judging by what we saw in the last referendum I very much doubt Catalonia wouldn't get blocked by Madrid every step of the way.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827817]No fucking shit, IT WAS A DICTATORSHIP. By this logic, even nowadays my fucking country should be separated. Instead here we are. As a republic.[/QUOTE] Catalonia wanted a referendum for independence, there is centuries of historical cultural marginalisation and under-representation behind why they might want to pull away, to never again have Madrid try to strangle the Catalan culture into non-existence. Madrid reacted to that not with dialogue, but with force. In my eyes, that lost Madrid any right to have a say in this. It wasn't an idea to be debated. It was one that should be oppressed, once you try to destroy a movement with force rather than reason you've lost the argument.

[QUOTE=Hick2;52827807][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Under_Franco.27s_rule_.281939.E2.80.931975.29]No oppression here, nope, none at all![/url][/QUOTE] BTW since we're bringing him back alive, part of the exports from Catalonia come from its industries (like SEAT, for example). Guess who put it there and restored said industries during the "Spanish Miracle"...

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52827834]here a mistake. 1) Spain has been a dictatorship until 1975, so is not a surprise if Catalonia got oppressed. 2) Again, show me documents that tells me that recently, AKA after 1975, Catalonia got oppressed. As far as I know, this shitshow could have been better for all if they followed the so scary [B][U]Bureaucracy[/U][/B] we all are afraid of. 3) Again, read above. If they actually proposed to change the constitution, this shitshow would have not happened. 4) In this one I am wrong and I admit it. Also I have been awake since 4 AM and am not active that much. 5) Colour me surprised. US would use brute force if California declared independence for example and that would hurt both americans and californians. Is best for Spain AND catalonia if they remain together. By this, I condemn what and how Spain acted, but as two wrongs does not make a right, I do not support the Catalan independence.[/QUOTE] I don't support independence either, but I also wouldn't stop them from declaring one. 1. So now from "ever" you changed to "recently". Of course after the democratization of Spain there wasn't any kind if repression from central government. Unless we count silly change in the Catalan autonomy law in 2010. 2. What even is this point? Bureaucracy has nothing to do wi5h my points. 3. You're saying it like Spain would agree to proposal of changing Spain into confederacy. Especially since it's a country of many similiar/different cultures. 4. I agree it's their best interest. But that's not what the point is about. I'm talking about legality of independence vote and how irrevelant from my point of view the legal status is. [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Coment;52827858]BTW since we're bringing him back alive, part of the exports from Catalonia come from its industries (like SEAT, for example). Guess who put it there and restored said industries during the "Spanish Miracle"...[/QUOTE] Damn, now we're using the "good things that opressors did" argument. Like it negates his totalitarian regime and his crimes. "Stalin industralized USSR so his rule was good after all!" That's what I'm getting from your statement. If I'm wrong, please explain what you meant.

[QUOTE=Coment;52827858]BTW since we're bringing him back alive, part of the exports from Catalonia come from its industries (like SEAT, for example). Guess who put it there and restored said industries during the "Spanish Miracle"...[/QUOTE] That's all alright then? They aren't allowed to exist in a place where they can speak, read or write in their own language. It's okay though, because everyone has a job? The man started down the path of destroying the Catalan culture. Sorry to Godwin this but that's like defending Hitler's Germany because he got everyone building roads.

Our Prime-Minister announced we will not back up Catalonia, that the independence has no international validity and that it is not recognized the the European Union. [URL="https://www.dn.pt/portugal/interior/catalunha-antonio-costa-solidario-com-a-defesa-da-unidade-de-espanha-8877654.html"]s[/URL]

[QUOTE=Coment;52827542]Chalk off a few years, and now [URL="https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-catalan/catalan-language-revival-fuels-backlash-in-spain-idUSKBN0FJ2E920140714"]schools have [I]few [/I]hours of spanish[/URL] and you can [URL="https://www.thelocal.es/20160426/catalonia-nearly-triples-fines-against-shops-for-not-using-catalan"]get fined if your sign isn't in catalan[/URL]. I wouldn't say they're helping.[/QUOTE] I did the same hours of spanish and catalan what are you talking about.