Catalonia has declared independence - Polidicks

Catalonia lasting even a month would be more than what was thought

[QUOTE=Vasili;52827432]What about the the support of Grand Strategy enthusiast gamers vocaling the 'will of the people' on FP?[/QUOTE] If we want to take "the will of the people" into discussion, then we need to think what do the rest of Spain thinks of Catalonia leaving. It's only fair. If the rest of the country tells Catalonia "Stop screwing around, you stay", well that's it. The people of Spain have spoken.

[QUOTE=T553412;52828299]If we want to take "the will of the people" into discussion, then we need to think what do the rest of Spain thinks of Catalonia leaving. It's only fair. If the rest of the country tells Catalonia "Stop screwing around, you stay", well that's it. The people of Spain have spoken.[/QUOTE] By that logic, Catalonia's secession will have at least a minor economic ripple across the world and therefore, I as an American should get a say.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52828327]By that logic, Catalonia's secession will have at least a minor economic ripple across the world and therefore, I as an American should get a say.[/QUOTE] We kind of do, since our governments can chose wheter they recognize their "state" or not. And if you don't want that, you simply pressure your government until it does So your point it's kind of moot

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52828416]If we take "will of the people" into acount, then the south leaving the union during the civil war was entirely justified, due to "the will of the people"[/QUOTE] Except huge swaths of the people in that context did not have a will in it, or anything that matter, given that they were kinda enslaved.

Catalan independence is just a bullshit short sighted popularist movement. If they even survive long enough as an independent state to see the consequences.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52828546]Catalan independence is just a bullshit short sighted popularist movement. If they even survive long enough as an independent state to see the consequences.[/QUOTE] Considering the movement/idea started in 1922 and has continued since in one form or another, I don't think it is as short-sighted as you make out. More indicative of real, underlying issues if it has been going for nearly 100 years, perhaps.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52828546]Catalan independence is just a bullshit short sighted popularist movement. If they even survive long enough as an independent state to see the consequences.[/QUOTE] catalonia (the one which existed from the 1100s until 1716) existed as a polity distinct and separate from spain for centuries, and even after being forcefully brought under Spanish rule they always held secessionist tendencies

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52828679]And they've never had the means to actually do it. We can all sit and say "Catalonia deserves to be independent" but at the end of the day they lack the means to accomplish this task, and they'll continue to lack the means.[/QUOTE] "might makes right"

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52828688]"might makes right"[/QUOTE] What "might" does Catalonia possess?

This is what happens when you threaten to take Gibraltar away. Bend the knee and we'll dissolve Spain for you.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52828701]On the international stage, yes it does. Having power means nothing if you don't have the means to project it, lacking power means your voice is ignored. Picture this: Catalonia finally gets independence, great right? To what end? Now they have to support themselves, they aren't getting into the EU, so tourism is going to plummet, they aren't going to be able to compete with EU agricultural products, so their agriculture will suffer, their industries will have heavy tariffs. Eventually their economy will fail, but at least they became independent, right?[/QUOTE] i seriously doubt the catalonian economy will fail. its not as though international trade with the country and tourism is going to end unless they actually have a massive civil war that destroys it. additionally catalonia already has land, human capital, some resources, sea access, sites of tourist interest and the like it can make use of. if fear of economic calamity for a while is the best argument you have against independence then why did any country bother fighting for it. the united states bankrupted itself and ruined their economy during the independence war from britain - maybe it should have just accepted shit as it was people in catalonia should have the power to rule themselves as much as possible. if madrid doesn't allow them that then they have every right to independence, and even then what voice did they even have in the first place? the spanish government regularly shits on the catalonians so why would it be any better for them? at least this way they get to choose their own fate

Things get real when North Africa enters the scene!

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52827737]What a shame, since Scotland already had their vote. Give it another decade, not another couple of years before another referendum is held.[/QUOTE] Scotland voted for the status quo, Brexit changed the status quo, Scotland is unhappy about that.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52829409]Scotland voted for the status quo, Brexit changed the status quo, Scotland is unhappy about that.[/QUOTE] Okay, let's have a referendum every damn year then, because the world changes every day. It just doesn't work that way.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52829451]Okay, let's have a referendum every damn year then, because the world changes every day. It just doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE] One of the great arguments for voting to stay with the UK was that Independence would mean separation from Europe and the EU. And then the UK went and did that exact same thing anyway, so Scotland would have lost the EU regardless which makes the point kind of null. That's why some people think they should redo the referendum.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52829451]Okay, let's have a referendum every damn year then, because the world changes every day. It just doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE] Brexit doesn't happen every day.

[QUOTE=Drury;52829713]Brexit doesn't happen every day.[/QUOTE] Scotland made a bet that everything would be better within the UK and they lost that bet. Same here goes for any nation seeking independence.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52829767]Scotland made a bet that everything would be better within the UK and they lost that bet. Same here goes for any nation seeking independence.[/QUOTE] Democracy isn't poker, it's about fulfilling the will of the people.

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;52827784]I'm all for Russia being brought down a notch actually, yes.[/QUOTE] Perhaps, but remember that Russia is a nuclear power, all it takes is one bad fracture and those nukes will be in the wrong territories and possibly in the wrong hands.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827041]Good call Catalonia. You have no arms, no armor, no aircraft, and no standing military. You have no means of protecting yourselves in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore you're out of the EU now, so now you're not protected by it. You've made the absolute worst choice possible, and I'll be surprised if you last 3 months.[/QUOTE] neither did we

[QUOTE=Megadave;52829815]Perhaps, but remember that Russia is a nuclear power, all it takes is one bad fracture and those nukes will be in the wrong territories and possibly in the wrong hands.[/QUOTE] Meh, russia physically cannot collapse an further cause our population is soo spread thin over most of it freezing landmass wich provides most of resources to rest of country, that even chinese enterprise can not populate provided border regions fast enough. But you can keep the wet dreaming.

[QUOTE=butre;52829842]neither did we[/QUOTE] The independence of US and the Catalan crisis aren't comparable. Us had an official support from: - France - Spain - Dutch Empire Catalonia lacks any recognition and support. Also thery were separated by the big body of water we call the Atlantic Ocean. So US had a time to form their batallions consisting of volunteers from Europe.

Catalonia being independent is going to further fragment Europe and hurt it both in the short and long term. It's an awful idea, there's no way around it.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;52829852]Meh, russia physically cannot collapse an further cause our population is soo spread thin over most of it freezing landmass wich provides most of resources to rest of country, that even chinese enterprise can not populate provided border regions fast enough. But you can keep the wet dreaming.[/QUOTE] Don't get snippy with me, I basically just said what you said, just gave a different reason for it. The only hope for Russia is better leadership and getting the corruption under control.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52829974]Don't get snippy with me, I basically just said what you said, just gave a different reason for it. The only hope for Russia is better leadership and getting the corruption under control.[/QUOTE] what? you suggested that incase of fracture into lesser countries portion of nuclear arsenal would go to wrongdoing peps, i simply stated that the fracture itself is impossible.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;52830034]what? you suggested that incase of fracture into lesser countries portion of nuclear arsenal would go to wrongdoing peps, i simply stated that the fracture itself is impossible.[/QUOTE] Even the romans in ancient Rome said so, yet...