Swiss school allows exemption for Muslim teens who refused to shake hands with female teachers - Polidicks

Slippery slopes dont exist at all. Its fine they are exempt, its not part of their culture.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50087691]Islamic culture is reactionary and backwards, it shouldn't be catered to in the enlightened, liberalized west imo[/QUOTE] Exactly, the backwards and idiotic ideals need to be crushed.

Can't make this shit up

I think the school is actually doing those students a disservice by tolerating this mindset. Because they're probably going to have to shake hands if they want to properly function in society when they enter adult life, and that include women's.

This is ridiculous. Almost all Muslims I know don't give a rat's ass whether or not you're a woman. I still don't comprehend Europe's obsession of bending over to these super-conservative Muslims. This shit wouldn't fly in an US school, and being a Muslim myself, I would [I]never[/I] have refused shaking hands with the opposite sex. Were these two from a refugee family? It would make a lot of sense. Muslims who grow in the West become much more liberal as they grow up, since they're not constrained by Middle Eastern super-conservative cultures. also can't wait for the ignorant posts parroting the same "Islam is incompatible with the West".

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50087773]This simply speaks to how huge of a problem this is. If you can plausibly read "don't touch women" from the texts, and also read "the Islamic commandment of mutual respect" then on who's authority do you say which interpretation is correct?[/QUOTE] There is no plausibility regarding not touching women in Islam. It's specifically stated as a sinful thing to touch women that aren't your immediate family members. As for the "Islamic commandment of mutual respect", I can find no such thing. There is certainly a line in the Quran that is shared with the New and Old Testaments about being respectful with others of your faith, and a couple Muslim scholars preach mutual respect with people of the book, but there is nothing fundamentally Muslim about it that I can find. [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50087848]Don't act like this is purely an Islamic thing. You can plausibly read anything from anything, the people who's opinions matter are the people who understand and are educated formally in the interpretation of texts.[/QUOTE] The book explickitly says this though and the vast majority of the people who have interpreted it agree and take it literally and quite seriously.

its fundamentally idiotic to give certain people privileges.

You shouldn't be required to shake anyone's hand regardless of religion. Seems ridiculous you'd need an exemption to retain your rights.

You fucking idiots, the Jews have been practicing this for [I]ages[/I] in the US and nobody says anything about it. I can't wait for people to stop bashing muslims for literally no reason It's not like they're saying "fuck you you dumb bitch im not shaking your hand". It's more "Sorry, my religion forbids touching a woman." [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. N;50087568]But they are doing it to allow inherently sexist attitudes to flourish. How can you see there is not a problem with this?[/QUOTE] How have you people never heard of this before? Seriously?

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;50087703]Assuming this is most likely related to the belief that women aren't equal to men then this is a pretty bad thing to cater.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Mr. N;50087568]But they are doing it to allow inherently sexist attitudes to flourish. How can you see there is not a problem with this?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50087580]I guess the sexist aspect of it is a problem, I'll concede to that, but the reaction of people saying "today it's the handshake, what will it be tomorrow" makes it sound like the teachers will have to accept massed executions or something[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Antlerp;50088136]The reasoning behind them not wanting to shake their female teacher's hand is openly sexist. We're supposed to be a rational, enlightened society where decisions are based on logic... what is this? Because Allah said women are inferior? What? It's actually pretty bad.[/QUOTE] I don't really think this is to do with viewing women as beneath them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but within a lot of stricter Islamic settings (Or maybe even not that strict), it is forbidden for people to touch members of the opposite sex who they are not married to or are not related to. This applies to women too, eg they are forbidden to touch men who are not 'off limits' to them from a marriage standpoint. So unless that's wrong the actual issue here is that people instantly assume the intention is sexist rather than something that is widely practiced within their religion.

[QUOTE=Cushie;50089292]I don't really think this is to do with viewing women as beneath them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but within a lot of stricter Islamic settings (Or maybe even not that strict), it is forbidden for people to touch members of the opposite sex who they are not married to or are not related to. This applies to women too, eg they are forbidden to touch men who are not 'off limits' to them from a marriage standpoint.[/QUOTE] Yes. This is how the Hasidic Jews that are around here do it. And yes, the women aren't allowed to touch men they're not related to, either Just a perfect example of everyone talking out their ass about something they don't even know about lol

[QUOTE=Kylel999;50089191]You fucking idiots, the Jews have been practicing this for [I]ages[/I] in the US and nobody says anything about it. I can't wait for people to stop bashing muslims for literally no reason It's not like they're saying "fuck you you dumb bitch im not shaking your hand". It's more "Sorry, my religion forbids touching a woman." [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] How have you people never heard of this before? Seriously?[/QUOTE] Yeah people would probably have a same or similar reaction to this if "muslim" was replaced with "orthodox jew". The only thing that would be missing would be the "Judaism is incompatible with the west" because people recognize that traditionalist sects of the Orthodox are a fraction of a fraction of actual Jews, where as the Muslim belief that a man should not touch a woman is a fundamental Muslim belief. [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kylel999;50089313]Yes. This is how the Hasidic Jews that are around here do it. And yes, the women aren't allowed to touch men they're not related to, either Just a perfect example of everyone talking out their ass about something they don't even know about lol[/QUOTE] If you want to be specific enough to reference Hasidic Jews, I've seen them catch flak on Facepunch for their beliefs as well. [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Cushie;50089292]I don't really think this is to do with viewing women as beneath them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but within a lot of stricter Islamic settings (Or maybe even not that strict), it is forbidden for people to touch members of the opposite sex who they are not married to or are not related to. This applies to women too, eg they are forbidden to touch men who are not 'off limits' to them from a marriage standpoint. So unless that's wrong the actual issue here is that people instantly assume the intention is sexist rather than something that is widely practiced within their religion.[/QUOTE] In the religious and historical context, the denial of men and women from touching each other is based on desire and the old idea that touching someone of the opposite sex is inherently sexual. In the context of 2016 Switzerland, a handshake is a physical communication of mutual respect or acknowledgement. For the state to step in and create two different rules based on ones religion is inherently discriminatory and sexist, even if the original concept arguably isn't.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50089314] If you want to be specific enough to reference Hasidic Jews, I've seen them catch flak on Facepunch for their beliefs as well.[/QUOTE] You're totally right, that makes intolerance okay [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] What I'm amazed at is how totally dedicated to the idea some people are that they're [I]entitled[/I] to a handshake

[QUOTE=Kylel999;50089334]You're totally right, that makes intolerance okay[/QUOTE] I'm not saying it's okay, I am rebutting your statement that "no one cares" when extremist sects of Jews do the things Muslims do. [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kylel999;50089334] What I'm amazed at is how totally dedicated to the idea that you're [I]entitled[/I] to a handshake[/QUOTE] I don't think I'm entitled to a handshake, I think not shaking someones hand when it's offered based on religious grounds is bizarre and backwards. Obviously you should absolutely have the right not to return a handshake, I just don't see why the state has to step in in this case.

I get what you're saying, totally, about how it would be inherently discriminatory but he practice really doesn't have to be. It's really not a big deal and it doesn't come up as often as it sounds like it would.

[QUOTE=Kylel999;50089191]You fucking idiots, the Jews have been practicing this for [I]ages[/I] in the US and nobody says anything about it. I can't wait for people to stop bashing muslims for literally no reason It's not like they're saying "fuck you you dumb bitch im not shaking your hand". It's more "Sorry, my religion forbids touching a woman." [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] How have you people never heard of this before? Seriously?[/QUOTE] The regressive mindset in action. Draw a false equivalence, then when that doesn't hold water cry discrimination.

It's apparently progressive to tolerate blatant sexism when minorities are being sexist. [QUOTE=Kylel999;50089191]You fucking idiots, the Jews have been practicing this for [I]ages[/I] in the US and nobody says anything about it. I can't wait for people to stop bashing muslims for literally no reason It's not like they're saying "fuck you you dumb bitch im not shaking your hand". It's more "Sorry, my religion forbids touching a woman." [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] How have you people never heard of this before? Seriously?[/QUOTE] Maybe Orthodox Jews refuse to shake hands with women, but definitely not reform or secular Jews, who comprise 99% of Jews in North America. [QUOTE]The Swiss People's Party is a far-right nuthouse that opposes maternity leave and supports deporting foreign criminals, anything they say is going to be ridiculous.[/QUOTE] I don't really see how either of those things are ridiculous. Why [I]wouldn't[/I] you deport foreign criminals?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50089632] Maybe Salafist Muslims refuse to shake hands with women, but definitely not standard or secular Muslims, who comprise 99% of Muslims in the Universe.[/QUOTE] "secular Muslim" doesn't make any sense. Muslim isn't an ethnic group. There's also no such thing as standard Islam, there are many different schools (most of which are very socially conservative by Western standards)

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50089694]How does secular jew make sense? [/QUOTE] Jews are an ethnic group, which is why a Jew can be secular. Islam is a religion, a Muslim can not be secular. [QUOTE]Okay, say Hanbali Islam. Can you come to me with one thing that is an accepted rule among Hanbalis that says women are inferior?[/QUOTE] To the best of my knowledge it's never directly written anywhere that women are inferior, but Hanbali teachings require women to dress very modestly, and in the presence of men outside their family, women are expected to cover more or less the entire body. This would be considered sexist because the same is not required of men. It could even be construed as sexist against men - suggesting that men can not control their lust. [QUOTE] And where did I say Muslim was an ethnic group? [/QUOTE] When you suggested that there are secular Muslims, like secular Jews.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50089632]Maybe Salafist Muslims refuse to shake hands with women, but definitely not [B]standard or secular Muslims, who comprise 99% of Muslims in the Universe.[/B][/QUOTE] Gonna need a source on that one.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50089837]Gonna need a source on that one.[/QUOTE] UHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I live in a place whose inhabitants are predominantly muslim and I happen to be a part of a muslim family and NO it's not prohibited for girls to shake hands with guys lol. it seems like in the case for these boys the parents are the nutjob extremist kind who are even against the celebration of birthdays and non muslim holidays yeah there's that kind but they're generally seen as stupid and definitely arent the norm oh and it's not because of your "females are inferior" bullshit i dont know which ass you're pulling that out of it's pretty much this: [QUOTE=Cushie;50089292]I don't really think this is to do with viewing women as beneath them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but within a lot of stricter Islamic settings (Or maybe even not that strict), it is forbidden for people to touch members of the opposite sex who they are not married to or are not related to. This applies to women too, eg they are forbidden to touch men who are not 'off limits' to them from a marriage standpoint. So unless that's wrong the actual issue here is that people instantly assume the intention is sexist rather than something that is widely practiced within their religion.[/QUOTE] although it's stupid that this swiss school allowed this exemption, they probably thought hey there's probably no harm in this, the two choices are giving up handshakes or receiving stupid complaints from the parents anyways Come on it's like you guys are desperately grasping at straws to find everything that is wrong with islam [b]"The Swiss Muslim community has largely suggested that the boys are misinterpreting Islamic teachings with their refusal to shake their teachers' hands"[/b] This was already stated in the article but god damn people just talk out of their ass and go "islam is incompatible with th-the ENLIGHTENED WEST!!!!!!!!!!!!" in every thread I see like why dont you just say that you hate islam and muslims regardless of the scenario lol

I don't know how it goes in other countries but in France, while it is outright illegal to show any religious signs on school grounds (both for school personnel and pupils), the schools still have a legal obligation to accommodate for the children's religion, including adapted meals during lunch break and whatnot. Doesn't seem that weird to me that this kind of accommodation would extent to stuff like shaking hands. It's not any more silly than not eating pork or fasting all day long. And if the kids are just misinterpreting the readings and talking out of their ass, well it's a problem their parents need to deal with. Not exactly a secular school's job to teach kids about their own beliefs. [editline]8th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Retsiger;50089727]Jews are an ethnic group, which is why a Jew can be secular. Islam is a religion, a Muslim can not be secular.[/QUOTE] "Jew" isn't an ethnic group, stop talking out of your ass.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;50089314]where as the Muslim belief that a man should not touch a woman is a fundamental Muslim belief.[/QUOTE] What

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50090472] "Jew" isn't an ethnic group, stop talking out of your ass.[/QUOTE] Ethnoreligious.

Uhhhhhhhh touching women has really nothing to do with sexism. It's just a belief that a man can't touch with members of the opposite sex unless you're close family or married

[QUOTE=Matrix374;50090644]Uhhhhhhhh touching women has really nothing to do with sexism. It's just a belief that a man can't touch with members of the opposite sex unless you're close family or married[/QUOTE] That is by definition a sexist ideal. There is no way of getting around that.

[QUOTE=Rainboo;50090069]UHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I live in a place whose inhabitants are predominantly muslim and I happen to be a part of a muslim family and NO it's not prohibited for girls to shake hands with guys lol. it seems like in the case for these boys the parents are the nutjob extremist kind who are even against the celebration of birthdays and non muslim holidays yeah there's that kind but they're generally seen as stupid and definitely arent the norm oh and it's not because of your "females are inferior" bullshit i dont know which ass you're pulling that out of[/QUOTE] Great. I ask for a source to back up a specific statistic, and you give me a personal anecdote. Then you strawman me. Here, I'll give you a source to disprove those numbers: [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/IMG] [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/"]Source[/URL] [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Matrix374;50090644]Uhhhhhhhh touching women has really nothing to do with sexism. It's just a belief that a man can't touch with members of the opposite sex unless you're close family or married[/QUOTE] You can also read about the history of why this rule was implemented in the Muslim world. It is explicitly sexist.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50090495]What[/QUOTE] Fundamental is the wrong word, but it is extremely common throughout Islam. Even very westernized Muslims where I live won't shake the hand of someone from the opposite sex, especially muslim women shaking the hand of a man.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50090787]Great. I ask for a source to back up a specific statistic, and you give me a personal anecdote. Then you strawman me. Here, I'll give you a source to disprove those numbers: [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/IMG] [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/"]Source[/URL] [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] You can also read about the history of why this rule was implemented in the Muslim world. It is explicitly sexist.[/QUOTE] Those are some disturbing numbers, and also explains a lot of the wackos my country is taking in, as the majority of them come from the highest % countries.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50090787]Great. I ask for a source to back up a specific statistic, and you give me a personal anecdote. Then you strawman me. [/QUOTE] fyi only my first statement was directed at what you said When it comes to this kind of shit statistics mean nothing. Muslims, like any other collective of people have different and varying opinions. When you do interviews and surveys for a set number of people in chosen locations, that doesn't mean shit for the millions of other muslims whose opinions aren't being represented. And the muslims in those countries who agree to shariah law in most cases just do so blindly because of the lack of proper education and they don't really know what shariah law entails. I would value the personal anecdote of someone who actually lives with muslims over someone who just googles statistics and plays internet muslim expert to what end? Rousing hate? Convincing people that it's improbable for muslims to properly integrate themselves into western countries? Getting them out of the country? Encouraging prejudice? If it's to show how islam(or organized religion in general) is anachronistic, regressive, and doesn't make sense well most of the people here already hold that sentiment for most of organized religion. What's the point of pushing anti-islamic sentiments in every single thread where the word "islam" is mentioned? The media sensationalizes all incidents involving muslims and it seems like you guys are eating that up pretty nicely. A white guy stabs someone: "florida man gets stabbed". A muslim guy stabs someone: "muslim stabs man". White person pushes stupid sentiments: "student in university a suspended for cultural appropriation". Muslim person pushes stupid sentiments: "muslim students condone homophobia" It's literally just a school stupidly bending over to dumb super conservative muslims, whose misinterpreted beliefs aren't the norm for educated muslims. That's what's going on here. No the muslims aren't gonna take over your countries nor do they commit more crime than other groups of people. They have their fair share of stupid and regressive beliefs as do others and no one's pretending that they're not aware of it. If you want to convince muslims that their beliefs are wrong, then this is the wrong approach. And don't even associate muslims in civilized society with the likes of ISIS. No one likes those people, and terrorist groups kill more muslims than white people. Of course you can then argue that the population of muslims I live with doesn't represent the opinion of muslims all over the world but blah nothing's gonna change your mind anyways Is it really hard just to think of them as another group of people with a different set of beliefs? That they have nice people and assholes like all other people? That there are dumb ones and smart ones? "The Swiss Muslim community has largely suggested that the boys are misinterpreting Islamic teachings with their refusal to shake their teachers' hands. "[To] the students and parents I would suggest the following reflection: Can the denial of shaking hands be more important than the Islamic commandment of mutual respect?" Montassar Ben Mrad, president of Federation of Islamic Organizations in Switzerland, said in the statement." Would you still say that their beliefs are the norm for muslims when the president of a major islamic organization disagrees with them? This whole thing is really overblown.