Swiss school allows exemption for Muslim teens who refused to shake hands with female teachers - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50087555]I don't see the problem? They aren't forcing other students to bend to their will, nor are they making it so all schools must do this. In fact, this whole "outrage" is really petty[/QUOTE] Not forcing students to do something they don't want, sure that's fine. If the students were saying "I'm not comfortable shaking a stranger's hand." But they're saying "I don't want to shake a woman's hand." So, it's not okay. It's explicitly sexist, and is being given a pass.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;50091187]Not forcing students to do something they don't want, sure that's fine. If the students were saying "I'm not comfortable shaking a stranger's hand." But they're saying "I don't want to shake a woman's hand." So, it's not okay. It's explicitly sexist, and is being given a pass.[/QUOTE] I really wouldn't call it sexist. From personal experience actually talking with muslim people about this sort of thing, it's more about sexual purity and keeping men and women apart for that reason. Women are also not allowed to shake a man's hand, even if that man is a non-muslim. Does that make muslims women sexist against men? I don't think so.

[QUOTE=Rainboo;50090985]fyi only my first statement was directed at what you said When it comes to this kind of shit statistics mean nothing. Muslims, like any other collective of people have different and varying opinions. When you do interviews and surveys for a set number of people in chosen locations, that doesn't mean shit for the millions of other muslims whose opinions aren't being represented. And the muslims in those countries who agree to shariah law in most cases just do so blindly because of the lack of proper education and they don't really know what shariah law entails. I would value the personal anecdote of someone who actually lives with muslims over someone who just googles statistics and plays internet muslim expert to what end? Rousing hate? Convincing people that it's improbable for muslims to properly integrate themselves into western countries? Getting them out of the country? Encouraging prejudice? If it's to show how islam(or organized religion in general) is anachronistic, regressive, and doesn't make sense well most of the people here already hold that sentiment for most of organized religion. What's the point of pushing anti-islamic sentiments in every single thread where the word "islam" is mentioned? The media sensationalizes all incidents involving muslims and it seems like you guys are eating that up pretty nicely. A white guy stabs someone: "florida man gets stabbed". A muslim guy stabs someone: "muslim stabs man". White person pushes stupid sentiments: "student in university a suspended for cultural appropriation". Muslim person pushes stupid sentiments: "muslim students condone homophobia" It's literally just a school stupidly bending over to dumb super conservative muslims, whose misinterpreted beliefs aren't the norm for educated muslims. That's what's going on here. No the muslims aren't gonna take over your countries nor do they commit more crime than other groups of people. They have their fair share of stupid and regressive beliefs as do others and no one's pretending that they're not aware of it. If you want to convince muslims that their beliefs are wrong, then this is the wrong approach. And don't even associate muslims in civilized society with the likes of ISIS. No one likes those people, and terrorist groups kill more muslims than white people. Of course you can then argue that the population of muslims I live with doesn't represent the opinion of muslims all over the world but blah nothing's gonna change your mind anyways Is it really hard just to think of them as another group of people with a different set of beliefs? That they have nice people and assholes like all other people? That there are dumb ones and smart ones? "The Swiss Muslim community has largely suggested that the boys are misinterpreting Islamic teachings with their refusal to shake their teachers' hands. "[To] the students and parents I would suggest the following reflection: Can the denial of shaking hands be more important than the Islamic commandment of mutual respect?" Montassar Ben Mrad, president of Federation of Islamic Organizations in Switzerland, said in the statement." Would you still say that their beliefs are the norm for muslims when the president of a major islamic organization disagrees with them? This whole thing is really overblown.[/QUOTE] So you basically said that you don't believe in statistics and then you gave more unsupported assertions and strawmen.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50090787]Great. I ask for a source to back up a specific statistic, and you give me a personal anecdote. Then you strawman me. Here, I'll give you a source to disprove those numbers: [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/IMG] [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/"]Source[/URL] [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] You can also read about the history of why this rule was implemented in the Muslim world. It is explicitly sexist.[/QUOTE] You gave statistics on sharia law, a vague subject with several interpretations. Got anything a bit more concrete? As in what percentages believe that its wrong to touch the opposite sex? I have stated before, its conservatives in general that cause these problems, which unfortunately the middle east suffers from. Religion itself is irrelevant. Here in the us, look at the muck being tossed about sex ed, abortion, gay rights, etc.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50091312]So you basically said that you don't believe in statistics and then you gave more unsupported assertions and strawmen.[/QUOTE] Don't you have common sense and a brain to think with? I'm not condoning the action of the school but it's literally just two students in one school out of so many others and there's big enough of an outrage, even from the muslim community in sweden, that you can say for sure that the chances of this happening in the future has been greatly reduced. Your worries of this being a major problem are unfounded and your arguments have no purpose aside from placing a spot on islam for very eager people to dogpile on.

[QUOTE=sgman91;50091251]I really wouldn't call it sexist. From personal experience actually talking with muslim people about this sort of thing, it's more about sexual purity and keeping men and women apart for that reason. Women are also not allowed to shake a man's hand, even if that man is a non-muslim. Does that make muslims women sexist against men? I don't think so.[/QUOTE] This I mean I like to shit on Islam whenever I can but this is such a non-issue compared to the other weird things the belief has This has always been about sexual purity rather than men being superior over women or whatever. Even with the shitheads in my country I've never seen this become anything more than that.

[QUOTE=da space core;50091313]You gave statistics on sharia law, a vague subject with several interpretations. Got anything a bit more concrete? As in what percentages believe that its wrong to touch the opposite sex?[/QUOTE] I don't believe that question has ever been asked but take a look at the whole study, [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-women-in-society/"]this page in particular[/URL]. The numbers about Muslim attitudes towards women are terrifying. [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-1.png[/IMG][IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/IMG][IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-3.png[/IMG] [quote]I have stated before, its conservatives in general that cause these problems, which unfortunately the middle east suffers from. [B]Religion itself is irrelevant.[/B] Here in the us, look at the muck being tossed about sex ed, abortion, gay rights, etc.[/quote] Where do you reckon this conservatism comes from? And stop drawing false equivalences between the West and the Islamic world. Its so obviously not equivalent, and your comparisons are paper thin. [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-4.png[/IMG][IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp3-6.png[/IMG] Show me [I]anywhere[/I] in the western world where we see these kind of numbers. [editline]7th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Rainboo;50091327]Don't you have common sense and a brain to think with? I'm not condoning the action of the school but it's literally just two students in one school out of so many others and there's big enough of an outrage, even from the muslim community in sweden, that you can say for sure that the chances of this happening in the future has been greatly reduced. [B]Your worries of this being a major problem are unfounded and your arguments have no purpose aside from placing a spot on islam for very eager people to dogpile on.[/B][/QUOTE] Once again (for the thrid time), a complete strawman.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50091418] Show me [I]anywhere[/I] in the western world where we see these kind of numbers. [/QUOTE] "Lopsided majorities describe the Muslim religion (84%), the Mormon Church (83%), the Catholic Church (79%) and evangelical churches (73%) as unfriendly toward people who are LGBT. They have more mixed views of the Jewish religion and mainline Protestant churches, with fewer than half of LGBT adults describing those religions as unfriendly, one-in-ten describing each of them as friendly and the rest saying they are neutral." [url]http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/06/13/a-survey-of-lgbt-americans/[/url] [img]http://i.imgur.com/XtDLcCg.png[/img] You must also consider the availability of education and things like access to the internet when it comes to shit like that. Statistics, especially in cases like these, aren't the be-all and end-all of gauging the sentiments of people. They do not take ALL present factors into consideration nor do they represent the opinion of the entire population. Such problems will exist regardless of the existence of islam or the lack thereof, given that there's a general lack of proper education and proper exposure. pfft you should just admit that you despise islam and will always look down on muslims regardless of what people may say

As a protestant Christian, I really have no idea what an "evangelical Christian" is as opposed to other protestant denominations. Everyone seems to use it in some vague sense of some fundamentalist section of protestantism, but I've never actually heard a Christian use that term to encapsulate their Christianity or their denomination.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50087691]Islamic culture is reactionary and backwards, it shouldn't be catered to in the enlightened, liberalized west imo[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ, I had to check to make sure this wasn't the late 1800s.

Quoting myself here as the dumb Pew Poll is always brought up. [QUOTE]2% of Afghanis use internet yet over 84% of them say they use social media sites. Okay. 30% of Indonesians said they didn't consider Sunnis to be Muslim despite over 99% of Indonesian Muslims being Sunni. 45% of respondents in Pakistan, 51% in Bangladesh, 55% in Indonesia (but just 6% in Afghanistan, 9% in Egypt, 11% in Iraq, 16% in Jordan, and 3% in Lebanon) said that "reciting poetry or singing in praise of God" is unacceptable under Islam. Which is simply ridiculous. Over 40% of Albanians did not believe in Heaven or Hell. A similar amount of both Albanians and Bosnians did not believe in angels. Which seems to run contrary to the other results regarding religiosity (since most African respondents prayed and had the highest mosque attendance out of anyone). 22% of Bengalis did not believe in predestination or the divine decree (kismat/qadar), a core article of faith in both Sunni and Shi'ite Islam. Nearly a quarter to a third of Arab respondents did not believe in the existence of djinns, although this too is a core article of faith in both Sunni and Shi'ite Islam (the devil is a djinn... one would expect that most of these respondents believed in the existence of the devil which would indicate they were not aware of a basic tenet of Islamic theology lifted straight from the literal verses of the Qur'an). 45% of Indonesians also did not believe in djinn (this reached majorities in Central Asia and Europe, except for Turkey). [B]72% of Albanians did believe in the Shahadah (that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad (saw) is His Messenger). [/B]This is the equivalent of a Christian saying that Jesus wasn't the son of God. Which is strange considering 95% of Albanians said they were raised as Muslim. If you looked beyond the parts of the poll that supported your world views you would see how flawed it is.[/QUOTE]

to respond to as much of the thread's content as possible in as little space as possible: the decision: stupid. the overall impact: tiny. was this expected? yes, if only because public schools do a lot of stupid shit on their own. does that make this okay? no, of course not. does this mean that political correctness has gone mad and that society has turned into a lefty backwards terrorist-haven? no. is the solution to ban muslims? no. are all muslims fundamentalists? no. were people in this thread seriously asking the three questions above? not really. will a (possibly tiny) minority of people in switzerland actually ask these questions unironically, and use this small isolated incident as proof? probably. [QUOTE=Pantz Master;50090787]Great. I ask for a source to back up a specific statistic, and you give me a personal anecdote. Then you strawman me. Here, I'll give you a source to disprove those numbers: [IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/IMG] [URL="http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/"]Source[/URL].[/QUOTE] asking whether someone supports making sharia the basis of goverance is like asking whether someone supports making capitalism the basis of an economy. "capitalism" could refer to a huge range of different concepts of how an economy is run. the same goes for sharia. in general, is sharia more socially conservative? definitely. are many readings of sharia regressive, even violent? sure. but sharia is an extrapolation from text, determined by local religious leaders and figures. sharia in iran differs from sharia in saudi arabia, which differs from sharia in Nigeria and sharia in Malaysia. because "sharia" means something different depending on where you go, you aren't really measuring anything substantive. it'd be like taking a survey on the lengths of things back in the early imperial days, when you'd literally use your hands and feet to measure objects.

If they don't want to shake hands, they should show an equivilent sign of respect towards the teacher. If they don't want to do that either, it's plain sexism.

[QUOTE=joes33431;50091607] will a (possibly tiny) minority of people in switzerland actually ask these questions unironically, and use this small isolated incident as proof? probably. [/QUOTE] It's a sad thing that people on FP actually do so.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50087580]I guess the sexist aspect of it is a problem, I'll concede to that, but the reaction of people saying "today it's the handshake, what will it be tomorrow" makes it sound like the teachers will have to accept massed executions or something[/QUOTE] From someone like you, I'd expected a more sensible answer. But sadly, you disappoint me.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50090495]What[/QUOTE] Can you please close this stupid thread with this [quote]"The Swiss Muslim community has largely suggested that the boys are misinterpreting Islamic teachings with their refusal to shake their teachers' hands" [/quote]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50090472] [editline]8th April 2016[/editline] "Jew" isn't an ethnic group, stop talking out of your ass.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews"]You're either hilariously uninformed [/URL] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_theory_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry"]or an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist.[/URL] [QUOTE]Can you please close this stupid thread with this[/QUOTE] Can we please close threads that challenge my ideology, too?

It's not challenging my idea. If anything it's reenforcing my idea that people use minor anecdotes as a reinforcement of their predefined opinion instead of listening to representatives of many many many more people. People are obviously not reading the whole OP and posting dumb stuff and this thread leads to nothing.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50092128]It's not challenging my idea, if anything it's reenforcing my idea that people use minor anecdotes as a reinforcement of their predefined opinion instead of listening to representatives of many many many more people.[/QUOTE] Ok, let's test this idea. An[URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1513663&p=50091418&viewfull=1#post50091418"] earlier post[/URL] in this thread explained, in detail, the problem of sexism in the Islamic world and used credible sources. Will you admit that the majority of Muslims are sexist? This is what evidence suggests, and anecdotal evidence does nothing but reinforce your own pre-defined opinion.

I admit that just like I admit that the majority of Germans are sexist and just like I hope you admit that the pew research center and especially the people it gets its funding from are subject of some very questionable problems. Of course the middle east has a raging problem with their views on women. Who do you think is providing the power, weapons and political possibilities for countries like Saudi Arabia to promote their extremist an repressive system that is used to keep the elites in power in the first place? Yet I have been to places in Turkey where thousands of Turkish people were swimming and bathing in bikinis, it was like bing in Italy on a tourist beach. Although arguably Italy has big sexism problems too of course.

What part of Turkey have you been to? I've been to Turkey twice and even in the touristy parts I didn't see any women in bikinis on beaches and the way women are treated in Istanbul? Bleh, it wasn't exactly screaming 'the locals respect women' to me. I sincerely doubt people in Germany are anywhere near as sexist, though I haven't been in Germany ever before so I can't speak for Germany.

Western coast, north and south of Izmir. Lovely place. Lots of Turlish tourists though so it's a bit tourist-y [editline]8th April 2016[/editline] In eastern Turkey we wern't allowed to be in a room alone with a woman though but that was also a very backward area of the country that didn't even have running water so yea, it's very similar to Germany where the people in the small villages vote conservative right winged while big modern cities are mostly progressive.

I don't think voting conservative has anything to do with necessarily being sexist. Nor is it a bad thing to have a conservative mindset. I also don't think it's fair to say that some back water part of Turkey is comparable to small villages in Germany.

Women back into the homes and "traditional family" values and anti-abortion and all of that conservative bs is pretty damn sexist but that's really not the point of my post. And it is comparable. Everything is comparable. It's not equatable but it shows the same tendencies.

I think you're generalizing and not recognizing that people that are conservative hold a variety of beliefs on topics like abortion. People on the left hold a variety of views on hot topics of discussion as well. I also don't think women back into the home is necessarily sexist unless they're making it mandatory and want to strip women of their rights. Also everything may be compatible, but this is a terrible comparison in my opinion.

Of course women back into homes is an intrinsically sexist concept I don't know why we are even arguing this I was merely illustrating that people are very similar and the same tendencies exist in different places, thei actual absolute level is a whole other debate. [editline]8th April 2016[/editline] I said "everything is comparable" by the way, not compatible.

I didn't think this was a male only thing though? I've had Muslim females deny a handshake from me before.

I've had all kinds of people deny a handshake too. Awkward fucks.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50092457]Of course women back into homes is an intrinsically sexist concept I don't know why we are even arguing this I was merely illustrating that people are very similar and the same tendencies exist in different places, thei actual absolute level is a whole other debate. [editline]8th April 2016[/editline] I said "everything is comparable" by the way, not compatible.[/QUOTE] First off, it's not sexist to desire a woman who wants to fill the role of stay at home mom, so long as it is her choice and she is happy (which is what I originally said). You saying that it is sexist is acting like you speak on behalf of women and know what is better for them. I also meant to post comparable, but my phone corrected it, which I would assume you would pick up on. I'm just saying your comparison is terrible and on a level of apples to oranges.

Why would I pick up your phone switching words when it perfectly looked like you just didn't read it correctly and the apple and oranges thing is pretty stupid of course you can compare the two that's how you differentiate stuff. A comparison is not an equation. [quote]First off, it's not sexist to desire a woman who wants to fill the role of stay at home mom, [/quote] but that's not what conservatives are promoting.