62p AN HOUR: That's what the women sleeping 16 to a room get paid...to make Ed and Harriet's £45 'Th
60 replies, posted
True, it's important to remain calm about these things.
Also, I'd trust Whedon more with his choice of terminology if he were actually a supporter of women's rights in his own actions. Just letting anyone market this tshirt is reminiscent of when they let David Cameron into the It Gets Better campaign.
This is not an uncommon practice but it points out the hypocrisy by this particular organization. Clearly, you would think they'd have some concern for the people who are making those shirts.
It is this new liberal thing in which you care about some issues and not others.
Apple? Huge LGBT activists but they employ cheap labor in China. American Apparel loves to talk about the fact they hire homeless people, but the company's policies as well as their CEO are misogynist. FUCKH8 finds issues to sell tshirts about, and that one company with the yellow equals sign kicked trans people out of gay marriage protests.
[QUOTE=person11;46389784]True, it's important to remain calm about these things.
Also, I'd trust Whedon more with his choice of terminology if he were actually a supporter of women's rights in his own actions. Just letting anyone market this tshirt is reminiscent of when they let David Cameron into the It Gets Better campaign.[/QUOTE]Um, are you fucking high? I wish I knew how many girls were inspired by characters Joss Whedon created, from Buffy all the way to River Tam, just so I could point out how much you are talking out of your ass right now.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;46390129]Um, are you fucking high? I wish I knew how many girls were inspired by characters Joss Whedon created, from Buffy all the way to River Tam, just so I could point out how much you are talking out of your ass right now.[/QUOTE]
It's also important to remember that you can be pro-Women's Rights and consider yourself a feminist and still slip up and do things that show an incomplete or imperfect embodiment of all of the ideas and principles of the movement. Partly because, as a man (and often, as a women) before we find out about feminism and all those other great movements, we've been socialised into believing a whole bunch of unhelpful ideas that pop up all over the show in what we say and do, and it takes years and years for these to all rise to the surface and get filtered out. Also partly because the movement itself is forever changing and adapting and reworking itself as new ideas come up and more behaviours or cultural objects are identified as being unhelpful or as displaying an unhelpful set of beliefs that it's impossible to keep up completely and perfectly.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;46390129]Um, are you fucking high? I wish I knew how many girls were inspired by characters Joss Whedon created, from Buffy all the way to River Tam, just so I could point out how much you are talking out of your ass right now.[/QUOTE]
Even if you chalk up the questionable treatment of some of his women characters in his movies and TV shows (he's really hit and miss when it comes to movies but does better with women in TV shows) to just being ignorant, and even if you ignore his awful comments about feminism that personally give me misgivings, firing an actress for being pregnant doesn't give one the best impression.
He's definitely not the worst or even that bad compared to other people in Hollywood but his title of magical nerd feminist that he seems to have in the Internet is undeserved.
[QUOTE=person11;46388153]
like how is Whedon a feminist (have Miliband or Clegg done anything to call themselves feminist?). He literally made speeches about being bullshit terms like "equalist" in support of not liking the word feminist anymore. He is just jumping on a marketing bandwagon.
[/QUOTE]
To be fair you shouldn't have to do or say anything to call yourself a feminist. Feminism is the movement that believes in gender equality, right? So therefore it's safe to assume that everyone who isn't a feminist (regardless of whether they brand themselves a feminist or have even given whether or not they are any consideration) either has serious mental issues or was born in 1600s.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;46390973]To be fair you shouldn't have to do or say anything to call yourself a feminist. Feminism is the movement that believes in gender equality, right? So therefore it's safe to assume that everyone who isn't a feminist (regardless of whether they brand themselves a feminist or have even given whether or not they are any consideration) either has serious mental issues or was born in 1600s.[/QUOTE]Can't tell if you're serious
That's nice in principle but applying that in reality means letting David Cameron be a part of the It Gets Better campaign while he was making it worse, etc.
It's really a matter of opinion, but I'd personally rather frame feminism as a political movement rather than an opinion, even though those standards are too high for most people (I'd not meet the standards myself )
[img]http://i.imgur.com/igcKIA5.png[/img]
that's kinda a lot when you factor in the exchange rate
[QUOTE=person11;46388153]He literally made speeches about being bullshit terms like "equalist" in support of not liking the word feminist anymore.[/QUOTE]
It makes sense, though. "Feminist" has been associated with "dumb sexist tumblr extremist that thinks men are inferior, not equal."
It's like GamerGate and how people seem to think that it's an anti-woman campaign when in reality nobody gives a fuck about your vagina.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46390998]Can't tell if you're serious[/QUOTE]
A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. Well I believe women should have equal rights and prospects to men, I've never gone into the streets and protested about it or written a TV series or novel with heavy feminist point of view. I'm sure that's the boat virtually everyone on this forum is in right now. Still you could say I support the rights and equality of women, even if you disagree you can't say people are jumping on a bandwagon for voicing feminist points of views, even if they never have before this point and you can't say I disagree with feminism, just that I'm not a feminist activist.
Also yeah I disagree with tumblr feminism, but identify that it is not the same as actual women's rights feminism.
[QUOTE=gk99;46392025]It makes sense, though. "Feminist" has been associated with "dumb sexist tumblr extremist that thinks men are inferior, not equal."
It's like GamerGate and how people seem to think that it's an anti-woman campaign when in reality nobody gives a fuck about your vagina.[/QUOTE]
That is not something feminists should have to solve (though it may have to come to that). It is not their fault people resort to slandering them or are just ignorant of the facts. Rebranding takes up valuable time that could be spent being an activist, and won't work in the long run, as all the negative things will be associated with the new term before long. It's just the result of having an essential political movement for half of all people.
[editline]2nd November 2014[/editline]
It's useless to rebrand oneself when a movement goes against the interests of so many people. The insults and stereotypes will continue. As long as the movement is about women's liberation from men, most men will not like the movement, or they will think they like the movement but not the parts they call too "extreme".
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46390998]Can't tell if you're serious[/QUOTE]
Why would he not be?
There are extremists in the movement who are either pushing ideas that the public isn't ready to deal with yet (and thus they come across as absurd) and other extremists who are genuinely too full of unrestrained anger to contribute to public discussion without giving feminism a bad name; neither of these are good reasons to have any legitimate issue with feminism as a whole
[editline]3rd November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rossy167;46392086]A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. Well I believe women should have equal rights and prospects to men, I've never gone into the streets and protested about it or written a TV series or novel with heavy feminist point of view. I'm sure that's the boat virtually everyone on this forum is in right now. Still you could say I support the rights and equality of women, even if you disagree you can't say people are jumping on a bandwagon for voicing feminist points of views, even if they never have before this point and you can't say I disagree with feminism, just that I'm not a feminist activist.
Also yeah I disagree with tumblr feminism, but identify that it is not the same as actual women's rights feminism.[/QUOTE]
Calling it Tumblr Feminism is silly; there are just as many silly extremists on Tumblr as there are in any other social sphere - you just see more of them from tumblr because that's the place to go at the moment to cherry pick and spread screenshots of those extremists' discussions.
Talking about specific shows, movies, books, games, etc, is important. It's impossible to discuss how sexism works in entertainment products without talking about specific contemporary examples. Maybe there is a better way of doing it though that doesn't get amplified by the extremists into borderline boycotting of a specific product.
[editline]3rd November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gk99;46392025]It makes sense, though. "Feminist" has been associated with "dumb sexist tumblr extremist that thinks men are inferior, not equal."
It's like GamerGate and how people seem to think that it's an anti-woman campaign when in reality nobody gives a fuck about your vagina.[/QUOTE]
Feminism is primarily about empowering women though, so it makes sense for it to be called feminism. The goal is that women should be equal to men. The social status and social privileges that men have is the goal. It's not about taking men and women and finding a middle point of equality where they can meet - it's about raising women up to the same level as men. Sure there are occasional instances where women benefit more from a situation than men, but they are very few and very far between.
There are great end-game benefits for men - when we have proper equality, men will be allowed to be not hyper masculine, they'll be allowed to cry if they feel like it, they'll be allowed to do jobs like nursing without being picked on, they'll be allowed to be transgender, etc, etc. This is because the entire notion of 'acting like that is as though you are acting like a woman, which is a sign of weakness' will be finally considered to be bullshit by the general public. But the movement while it is still in motion is about women, because it's women who've been pushed down and ill treated in nearly all aspects of social and professional life for the past few hundred years.
[QUOTE=person11;46392356]
It's useless to rebrand oneself when a movement goes against the interests of so many people. The insults and stereotypes will continue. [B]As long as the movement is about women's liberation from men[/B], most men will not like the movement, or they will think they like the movement but not the parts they call too "extreme".[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry what? At what point is modern feminism about 'liberating' women from men as if we've captured women and are holding them prisoner, maybe in the time of the Suffragette movement when women were basically slaves to their husbands? But now a feminist believes in gender equality, I doubt many feminists believe they are imprisoned by some Illuminati style patriarchy.
Also feminism doesn't really go against the interests of men. Really in what way does a gender equal world have a negative impact on me?
[editline]2nd November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Maloof?;46392563]
Calling it Tumblr Feminism is silly; there are just as many silly extremists on Tumblr as there are in any other social sphere - you just see more of them from tumblr because that's the place to go at the moment to cherry pick and spread screenshots of those extremists' discussions.
Talking about specific shows, movies, books, games, etc, is important. It's impossible to discuss how sexism works in entertainment products without talking about specific contemporary examples. Maybe there is a better way of doing it though that doesn't get amplified by the extremists into borderline boycotting of a specific product.
[/QUOTE]
To be fair because it's a separate idea to feminism it makes sense to label it something, especially because large portions of the internet seem to hate what they call feminists without acknowledging they're just getting the definition wrong and probably are actually feminists themselves. I mean in my eyes tumblr feminism only really focuses on media anyway, which certainly distinguishes it from my perspective on feminism which can focus on media but of course also looks at fair wages, household roles and general viewpoints towards women. Of course it makes sense to discuss the portrayal of women in media and of course this does reflect societies views as books/TV/games etc all reflect mindsets of their creators and fans. Hell, I'm probably going to end up writing an AS essay about feminist ideas in A Streetcar Named Desire. However, there is a boundary to this and I often feel that the sort of viewpoints I see around the tumblr circles hate me because I'm a white male that's a fan of games and sci-fi.
Maybe I just label it tumblr feminism in my head because the views I see in places like Feminist Frequency doesn't necessarily seem feminist, instead they seem to claim any and every portrayal of women in media is sexist and it is men that are to blame. Idk, that seems ignorant, maybe even sexist but certainly not about removing prejudice and discrimination to me.
surpriise feminism is a money maker
I'm using a Skeleton-to-sjw script and was deeply confused for a moment
[quote]super skeleton T-shirts worn by politicians are made in 'sweatshop' conditions
- They say: 'We don't feel like super skeletons. We don't feel equal. We feel trapped'
[/quote]
[QUOTE=Rossy167;46392659]I'm sorry what? At what point is modern feminism about 'liberating' women from men as if we've captured women and are holding them prisoner, maybe in the time of the Suffragette movement when women were basically slaves to their husbands? But now a feminist believes in gender equality, I doubt many feminists believe they are imprisoned by some Illuminati style patriarchy.
Also feminism doesn't really go against the interests of men. Really in what way does a gender equal world have a negative impact on me?[/QUOTE]
Misogyny works the same way nowadays as racism does. There is a general public consensus that those things are bad, but many aspects of our society are still discriminating under the radar. One example is how white men are more likely to get jobs and get paid more for them than black women. It's much more silent than catcalling or closing abortion clinics, but every bit as pervasive. This systemic lowering of living standards for entire groups of people in our society is certainly not as bad as it was before, but it is still there. Liberation is escaping from such a status in society. In many ways the difference between equality and liberation is purely vocabulary: both expressions call for the same actions, mostly. Many feminists see Second Wave vocabulary as a better way to describe their status as still oppressed by men, even if not as much as before. Feminist theory, to me, at least, makes a lot more sense when framed the same way as working class liberation, in which men and women are different classes, one with near ownership of social standards, political positions, and money, and the other with significantly less. So the collection of advantages men get by being more in control of their fates than women can be collectively called Patriarchy.
When someone loses their ability to get paid more, or to be more likely to get a job or admission to university, that is a loss. Despite the lack of social pressures on men with the abolition of male gender roles, men would still lose power relative to women. It wouldn't be the kind of anti man violent takeover anti feminists envision, but equality doesn't necessarily benefit men as much as one would think.
[editline]2nd November 2014[/editline]
Also, most feminists on tumblr are fine. I used to think the hatred of extremist feminists was simply a tactic to reject feminists that were most threatening to men, but then I found the bottom of the barrel.
Radical Queer activists think that women that transition to trans men automatically become as internally misogynist as most men, and think lesbian women are not allowed to say no to sex from trans women, despite not being attracted to male bodies and genitals.
Radical Feminists have some ideas I think are brilliant about porn and sex work, as well as their focus on race and class as well as gender politics, but ruin it all by dismissing trans rights as another "MRA" group, since trans women are just men in dresses to them.
So yeah, there is definitely a loud and awful minority of feminists on tumblr, but most of the discussions there are pretty normal, just women talking about their own stories of having to live as women.
[QUOTE=person11;46392356]That is not something feminists should have to solve (though it may have to come to that). It is not their fault people resort to slandering them or are just ignorant of the facts. Rebranding takes up valuable time that could be spent being an activist, and won't work in the long run, as all the negative things will be associated with the new term before long. It's just the result of having an essential political movement for half of all people.
[editline]2nd November 2014[/editline]
It's useless to rebrand oneself when a movement goes against the interests of so many people. The insults and stereotypes will continue. As long as the movement is about women's liberation from men, most men will not like the movement, or they will think they like the movement but not the parts they call too "extreme".[/QUOTE]
"Equalist" is pretty self-explanatory, though. You say it'd take valuable time rebranding, the thing is, no progress is going to be made if they keep associating with those who think all men are vagina-hungry spawns of Satan.
Equal-ist is harder to form into "ALL MEN ARE BAD" than Fem-inist in a grammar sense, anyway.
I think it's worth a shot.
[QUOTE=Quark:;46392790]surpriise feminism is a money maker[/QUOTE]
it only becomes capitalistic if people introduce capitalism into it
[QUOTE=gk99;46394935]"Equalist" is pretty self-explanatory, though. You say it'd take valuable time rebranding, the thing is, no progress is going to be made if they keep associating with those who think all men are vagina-hungry spawns of Satan.
Equal-ist is harder to form into "ALL MEN ARE BAD" than Fem-inist in a grammar sense, anyway.
I think it's worth a shot.[/QUOTE]
I really do not think it is. But we can agree to disagree on that.
There really is no point (imo) in giving in to the wishes of people who make shit up about a political movement. Even the worst feminists I mentioned in the post above were not "those who think all men are vagina-hungry spawns of Satan". This is more of an anecdotal argument, but I have never heard of or interacted with anyone who used "genderist" or "equalist" without being a misogynist or at least ignorant in some capacity, one example being Joss Whedon, like I said.
[editline]2nd November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ownederd;46394951]it only becomes capitalistic if people introduce capitalism into it[/QUOTE]
Honestly the best feminist writers and the smartest feminists I know are all against or at least skeptical of modern capitalism. People make tons of cash by exploiting woman labor, selling more expensive women's products, giving lip service to feminism, trafficking, and by forming entire industries out of making women feel insecure about themselves.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;46392563]Why would he not be?
There are extremists in the movement who are either pushing ideas that the public isn't ready to deal with yet (and thus they come across as absurd) and other extremists who are genuinely too full of unrestrained anger to contribute to public discussion without giving feminism a bad name; neither of these are good reasons to have any legitimate issue with feminism as a whole
[/QUOTE]
If it was a vocal minority, maybe. But it's far from that. Feminism is a movement that is open for everyone to use and abuse and I am not willing to call myself as one even if I support the base idea. The actual movement is chaotic and all over the place, I want nothing to do with the title. I choose not to be a part of an open group which has so much shit going on.
[QUOTE=person11;46390797]firing an actress for being pregnant doesn't give one the best impression.
[/QUOTE]
what does this mean?
[QUOTE=gk99;46394935]"Equalist" is pretty self-explanatory, though. You say it'd take valuable time rebranding, the thing is, no progress is going to be made if they keep associating with those who think all men are vagina-hungry spawns of Satan.
Equal-ist is harder to form into "ALL MEN ARE BAD" than Fem-inist in a grammar sense, anyway.
I think it's worth a shot.[/QUOTE]
why do people keep saying it should be "equalist" (which sounds dumb) when egalitarianism already exists? is this a key demographic of people who hate feminism while not just not knowing what egalitarianism is, but never even hearing the name before? a movement meant to appease those guys would be extremely milquetoast at best. how would you ever get anything done with a social movement like that, really think about it
"alright guys we've got a rally going down on the white house lawn about generalized non-specific inequality towards various groups of people we're not at liberty to name (to avoid feelings of persecution and exclusion) now let's SHOW those fatcats we're [I]not going to [B]STAND[/B][/I] for this nebulous and mild sense of vague unease #shityeah #everyoneissatisfied2014"
it's said a lot that people are far too easily offended now, but if there's any kind of political correctness making the rounds and slowing the system, it's not being able to specify your problems when they don't revolve around upper-middle-class white men - just in case they feel like they're missing out. you can't get anything done if you're never allowed to make your solution cohesive.
[editline]3rd November 2014[/editline]
a universal humanist group that transcends all bounds but is terrified of looking feminist is the dumbest contradiction ever
[QUOTE=Cone;46395396]why do people keep saying it should be "equalist" (which sounds dumb) when egalitarianism already exists? is this a key demographic of people who hate feminism while not just not knowing what egalitarianism is, but never even hearing the name before? a movement meant to appease those guys would be extremely milquetoast at best. how would you ever get anything done with a social movement like that, really think about it
"alright guys we've got a rally going down on the white house lawn about generalized non-specific inequality towards various groups of people we're not at liberty to name (to avoid feelings of persecution and exclusion) now let's SHOW those fatcats we're [I]not going to [B]STAND[/B][/I] for this nebulous and mild sense of vague unease #shityeah #everyoneissatisfied2014"
it's said a lot that people are far too easily offended now, but if there's any kind of political correctness making the rounds and slowing the system, it's not being able to specify your problems when they don't revolve around upper-middle-class white men - just in case they feel like they're missing out. you can't get anything done if you're never allowed to make your solution cohesive.
[editline]3rd November 2014[/editline]
a universal humanist group that transcends all bounds but is terrified of looking feminist is the dumbest contradiction ever[/QUOTE]
Thank you, very well said compared to what I wrote. Equalism or Genderism are examples of trying way too hard to be conciliatory with those who are fighting against you.
C'mon over to the World's First Equalist Rally down here in Undefined, Not Kansas (not necessarily not Kansas)! We've got The Amazing Atheist as a public speaker and he's gonna go "uhh..." into the microphone and then leave, followed by thunderf00t jiggling his weird meaty sausage neck for six hours which we predict will solve world hunger
For some reason I thought the title was saying feminists were sleeping with 16 people at a time for 62p an hour to make feminist t-shirts. Good thing that was not what was happening.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46395216]If it was a vocal minority, maybe. But it's far from that. Feminism is a movement that is open for everyone to use and abuse and I am not willing to call myself as one even if I support the base idea. The actual movement is chaotic and all over the place, I want nothing to do with the title. I choose not to be a part of an open group which has so much shit going on.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely all social activism movements or other progressive (or conservative) causes are 'all over the place' and chaotic. It definitely is a vocal minority, and at the end of the day it's far better to join a cause and make it good than sit on the sidelines helping things stagnate
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