• Group that created list "Pitfalls of working with White People" received government funding.
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[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44877948]Sorry, was referring to Sobotnik's bit of info.[/QUOTE] Well the new academic understanding of racism uses the term "racism" to refer to systemic discrimination against a group of people (as contrasted with 'prejudice', which is an individual's biases and attitudes). The context in which a statement is made (in this case, an academic/conference discourse setting) is important to take into account when trying to appraise it.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44877992]Well the new academic understanding of racism uses the term "racism" to refer to systemic discrimination against a group of people (as contrasted with 'prejudice', which is an individual's biases and attitudes). The context in which a statement is made (in this case, an academic/conference discourse setting) is important to take into account when trying to appraise it.[/QUOTE] In Ibn Khalduns book, he wrote on the Sub-Saharans as being savages closer to animals than human beings, and said that they made for the best slaves in the Arab world. [url]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun#On_black_people[/url] [quote]The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and proximity to the animal stage. Other persons who accept the status of slave do so as a means of attaining high rank, or power, or wealth, as is the case with the Mameluke Turks in the East and with those Franks and Galicians who enter the service of the state [in Spain].[/quote]
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44877213]I just think it's funny how fp always complains about people getting offended easily, except when it's white people/men on the other end[/QUOTE] This is a problem all over the internet Minorities need to "get over it" but if you make fun of straight white men you're basically inverse Hitler
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44878138]This is a problem all over the internet Minorities need to "get over it" but if you make fun of straight white men you're basically inverse Hitler[/QUOTE] Federal funding changes things. How can you not get that? How would it sound if the president said this stuff? Stop bringing up Hitler and trying to start a fight.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44877076]This is literally true though?[/QUOTE] Can I see some evidence of that claim? [editline]22nd May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;44878138]This is a problem all over the internet Minorities need to "get over it" but if you make fun of straight white men you're basically inverse Hitler[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure the claim is usually that things being called racist aren't always racist. That's very different, whether correct or not, from something actually being racist and saying to just ignore it. From what I can tell, this is an academic and serious conference, not some satire gettogether.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;44878138]This is a problem all over the internet Minorities need to "get over it" but if you make fun of straight white men you're basically inverse Hitler[/QUOTE] how about we don't make fun of anyone
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44877128]This such a phony outrage, getting upset over a single (somewhat tounge-in-cheek, from the sound of it) pamphlet circulated by a sizable organization on the grounds that the US government has given that organization money. Even if someone is adamant that the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater with regards to this group, there are a million more far more egregious uses of taxpayer money to get up into arms about (like the 1.5 TRILLION dollars spent on a fighter jet [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDSiwqM2nw"]that can't do anything[/URL]) but getting white people offended about what minorities are doing is a a much, much more effective way of drumming up ad revenue on your news website.[/QUOTE] Wow the guy in that link is an idiot. He calls the high low mix a dumb idea and then proceeds to use the F15 and F16 as an example. He calls the F 15 weighed down with bells and whistles. The F15 has never lost a dog fight. Ever. No plane has ever successfully shot down an F15 in the history of its service with any operator. A small number have been lost to surface to air fire and simple engine failure, but the amount is shockingly tiny. Meanwhile the F16 is a cheap and very functional multirole fighter. The concept worked out fuckin great. His assessment on this maneuverability is pretty shit. Only the air force model comes with an internal cannon, and that variant is the smallest of the three and performs quite well. Not that it matters. They don't have to face you to lock on with missiles. You can arrive behind them and those so called "bells and whistles" let them target you just the same as them, only their electronic warfare package is going to be much meaner than yours and their heat signature and radar size are Mich more difficult to lock onto. In short you may be behind him, but he has the first missile in the air. They don't need to dogfight because they can target anything in detection range. For the bleeding edge enemy fighters, the F22 is to be employed. The notion that stealth somehow doesn't work is funny to me. Things like VHF Radar let you know something is there. Not a whole lot else. Which wouldn't be an issue except it isn't even entirely sure where "there" is so you can only generally lob SAM's at the area and hope they acquire a lock after launch. Meanwhile he skips over why it is impressive that the Russians developed a mobile system and likewise why nobody fucking bothers with the things: they are huge and put out craptons of energy. So while you are trying to determine where exactly this enemy fighter is, he has long since launched a HARM missile that is giggling as it flies towards your giant high energy radar station. The F35 is largely a waste of money, but it is because of the price tag. The performance is very reasonable.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44877213]I just think it's funny how fp always complains about people getting offended easily, except when it's white people/men on the other end it's especially the case on wacko conservative sites, like the only sources listed here case in point: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1394602&p=44840757&viewfull=1#post44840757[/url] [img]http://i.imgur.com/8COLvl3.png[/img][/QUOTE] It's not so much that I'm offended, but the attitude that I'm supposed to agree and look solemn and feel so humbled by the list and MY GOD you can't get offended you're WHITE. White people this! White people that! And from anyone else, I'd be really funny and I'd be in on the joke. But the people who do this are the exact people who, quite literally, scream and yell about diversity and how everybody should be equal and STEREOTYPES ARE THE FUCKING DEVIL and Oh lord think of those poor children you are stunting with your racism! I'm not offended by racist remarks towards white people, I'm offended by hypocritical anti-racists not seeing that they are the biggest racists in society.
god fucking damnit gunfox I swear every time can't you just post like a normal guy in these threads and either whine about the content or whine about the people whining about the content
[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;44879217]It's not so much that I'm offended, but the attitude that I'm supposed to agree and look solemn and feel so humbled by the list and MY GOD you can't get offended you're WHITE. White people this! White people that! And from anyone else, I'd be really funny and I'd be in on the joke. But the people who do this are the exact people who, quite literally, scream and yell about diversity and how everybody should be equal and STEREOTYPES ARE THE FUCKING DEVIL and Oh lord think of those poor children you are stunting with your racism! I'm not offended by racist remarks towards white people, [B]I'm offended by hypocritical anti-racists not seeing that they are the biggest racists in society.[/B][/QUOTE] do you actually believe this lol
also I don't give a shit about which race you're talking about, if you are stereotyping a race in a pamphlet by ascribing negative traits to the colour of people's skins, you are a racist anyone who argues about this not being true, is also a racist
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44879234]do you actually believe this lol[/QUOTE] I don't know, Do you define racism as treating people differently based solely on the color of their skin? If so, then yes, I believe that. Or do you subscribe to New Racism(!), where you categorize people based on their skin color, determine how you should treat each based on, I don't know fucking magic, and then proceed to call everyone else a racist for not subscribing to your racially based ideology? If so, then, I guess I was wrong and I'm a huge racist.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44879228]god fucking damnit gunfox I swear every time can't you just post like a normal guy in these threads and either whine about the content or whine about the people whining about the content[/QUOTE] Meh, people seem to have that covered.
[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;44879297]I don't know, Do you define racism as treating people differently based solely on the color of their skin? If so, then yes, I believe that. Or do you subscribe to New Racism(!), where you categorize people based on their skin color, determine how you should treat each based on, I don't know fucking magic, and then proceed to call everyone else a racist for not subscribing to your racially based ideology? If so, then, I guess I was wrong and I'm a huge racist.[/QUOTE] Are you for real trying to imply that all forms of racism are equally bad? Because last time I checked white people weren't systematically denied basic human rights and enslaved* for the majority of this country's history. It doesn't matter if your ancestors owned slaves or not, it doesn't matter if you think that none of this is your fault. What you DO have to do is realize that you're inadvertently keeping racism alive by having this shitty binary perspective. *Don't bother going "what about the Irish," I've heard that argument a billion times and its nothing but a meaningless fallback remark. [editline]22nd May 2014[/editline] Your reaction to being called racist should not be "fuck you!! I'm not racist!!!," it should be "how am I acting racist?"
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44880219]Are you for real trying to imply that all forms of racism are equally bad?[/QUOTE] so you would say that one form of racism is more okay than the other interesting also telling people how to react and act is a little pretentious
Meanwhile in the real world people get along perfectly well. You guys can have your conferences and make your laws, we in the real world will make actual progress the only way possible - by living our lives out in peace. You can't force peoples minds to change no matter how many laws you make or conferences you hold. It happens over time at the same rate regardless of what you do. We don't even care if you pat yourself on the back when progress is made naturally, falsely believing you helped it along. Whatever helps you sleep at night. There's two types of people at those conferences, white people who have always been wealthy and treat it like a zoo exhibit under the guise of "progress"(oh look honey a [I]black[/I] person [I]how urban[/I]) and radical black groups that enjoy making whitey feel bad in front of a crowd. I also don't care about your dumb ratings, while you talk about these issues I live with them and do my part every day to be a tolerant and accepting person [I]in the real world[/I] and that's good enough for me [editline]22nd May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=milkandcooki;44880219]Are you for real trying to imply that all forms of racism are equally bad? Because last time I checked white people weren't systematically denied basic human rights and enslaved* for the majority of this country's history. It doesn't matter if your ancestors owned slaves or not, it doesn't matter if you think that none of this is your fault. What you DO have to do is realize that you're inadvertently keeping racism alive by having this shitty binary perspective. *Don't bother going "what about the Irish," I've heard that argument a billion times and its nothing but a meaningless fallback remark. [editline]22nd May 2014[/editline] [B]Your reaction to being called racist should not be "fuck you!! I'm not racist!!!," it should be "how am I acting racist?[/B]"[/QUOTE] Fucking really? Who do you think you are? Why do you come into every thread relating to anything racial or LGBTQ and act like your some morally superior completely PC god among humans who has been annointed to determine what is and isn't racist/offensive? I have been offended by things you said more times than anyone else on this forum, you are a horrible judge of these things and I seriously wish you would just shut the fuck up sometimes. Who the fuck do you think you are saying shit like that man seriously, fuck off with your superiority complex. It's like the dunning-krugar effect applied to racism with you all the fucking time. You are not special, you have not been appointed by anyone, and honestly you are one of the most bigoted people here. And while I'm at it, yes all forms of racism are equally bad it's fucking racism. The effect it has on individuals is worse in cases of "classic" racism both systematically and individually, but that doesn't fucking mean that being racist against whites or asians is any 'better' as you put it. I cannot believe that someone who acts how you do says these kinds of thing and can be so god damn ignorant of how the real world works. When you call someone a racist based on [I]your[/I] incorrect and ignorant opinion, you are being extremely offensive. and then you have the fucking gall to say "you shouldn't be mad about me calling you a racist, you should grovel on your knees and ask [B]me, the almighty and infallible milkandcooki[/B] how you can be a better person in my eyes!" You are fucking disgusting. oh and by the way, your reaction to being called a disgusting bigot shouldn't be anger, contempt, or dismissal, you should Politely ask me how you can [B]stop[/B] being a disgusting bigot.
[QUOTE=DeEz;44881082]so you would say that one form of racism is more okay than the other interesting also telling people how to react and act is a little pretentious[/QUOTE] Before reading any of this please not that I have never said that racism is good in any way at all; it's just that some of it is more understandable. That's my big point right there. Like, which has more weight behind it, a white dude calling a black guy a nigger, or a black dude calling a white guy a cracker? Should be an obvious answer. White people have never experienced systematic oppression (in the US, but this applies to like 90% of the world anyways). That alone should be a decent explanation, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt by attempting to explain my point a little bit better. US history is nasty, and is filled to the brim with the terrible treatment of minorities. We brought over black slaves to build america up till the 1800's, we scammed the Native Americans over and over again and basically killed all of them off, we hired Chinese workers to build railroads and shit for like zero pay, black segregation and lynching existed up until a shockingly recent time, we put Asian people into camps during world war 2 regardless of their citizenship or allegiance to Japan, we have a huge stigma against Hispanic people because of border crossings and them taking lower-than-min-wage manual labor jobs, and recently we've developed a horrible case of the "that brown person must be a terrorist!" since 2001, and a bunch of other shit I'm forgetting, but you get the picture. Slavery in the US is gone, Native Americans are (forcefully) integrated to the point where you can't even call them native anymore, and in general you most likely won't get killed for no reason other than your skin color. But you've gotta be out of your [I]goddamn mind[/I] to think that we can easily erase hundreds of years of racism and oppression in just part of one generation. If racism had magically disappeared, then why do black people have a statistically higher chance of being in poverty or not graduating from school? For that reason you should come to understand that you, a white dude, calling somebody a racial slur has a huge negative weight behind it than a non-white person calling you something. You can pull your "My ancestors and/or I weren't slave owners" bullshit all you want, but it's not going to help. Hell, some of these atrocities are so recent that your parents probably grew up during some of it. Because of all this terrible history, you should at least try to [I]understand[/I] why someone who's part of a group that's been treated like shit for the better part of human history would be upset, [I]regardless of their personal experience with that history[/I]. You didn't directly contribute to racial segregation? Well first of all, who the hell thinks that racists and ex-slave owners or ex-KKK members are going to be the ones to make the world a less racist place? I'm going out on a limb and assuming that users here aren't racist, or at the very least don't think negatively of [I]some[/I] races. That's good! If you're part of that (hopefully) majority, you're already on your way to helping combat racism. But do you know what doesn't help? Whipping out personal anecdotes and bullshit canned stuff like "but I'm white and I've been beaten up because of my race!!!" or "i didn't own slaves so it's not my issue" or "what about the irish, they were white and they were enslaved" or "black people are like that because X" or "i'm white but i'm not privileged" [I]acting as if it's irrefutable evidence that racism is dead[/I]. Downplaying someone else's issues that [I]stem from hundreds of years and several generations of racism and oppression [/I]by bringing up your own which probably happened for a completely different reason is nothing but a cop-out statement. I'm sorry if you don't understand this point and take it as me making fun of white poor people for some reason. I know Facepunch loves to whine when somebody says this, but you're part of the problem if you're spewing this "everyone who uses racial slurs is equally bad!" bullshit, because it's just flat out not true. Racism is pretty bad, but it depends on who's directing it, and who it's being directed at. History's in the past, but it's affected where we're at now so try to think about that.
We should stop looking at racial/ethnic collectives if we want to get rid of racism. It isn't about words, its all about how you treat other people. We should be striving to treat people the same without any consideration for race or ethnicity and to do this we have to recognize that all racism is bad. [QUOTE=milkandcooki;44882892]Racism is pretty bad, but it depends on who's directing it, and who it's being directed at. History's in the past, but it's affected where we're at now so try to think about that.[/QUOTE] There is obviously a lot of social and institutional racism against non-whites still leftover from the past but I don't see how pointing out racism against whites in any way negates from the struggles of non-whites in their objectives to eliminate discrimination. Discrimination based on skin color is terrible no matter which race is being negatively affected. Racism against whites is not "reverse racism" and shouldn't be treated as something that is lesser than racism against any other race. When you discuss African Americans you act as if they can't be racists. Racism involving blacks against whites does [URL="http://youtu.be/7c0a2oy5SoA?t=19m13s"]happen[/URL] and it isn't going [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtHV0fDMyFk"]away[/URL]. Declaring that only racism against minorities matters is counterproductive and racist itself.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44880219]Are you for real trying to imply that all forms of racism are equally bad? Because last time I checked white people weren't systematically denied basic human rights and enslaved* for the majority of this country's history. It doesn't matter if your ancestors owned slaves or not, it doesn't matter if you think that none of this is your fault. What you DO have to do is realize that you're inadvertently keeping racism alive by having this shitty binary perspective. *Don't bother going "what about the Irish," I've heard that argument a billion times and its nothing but a meaningless fallback remark.[/QUOTE]You have constructed an argument where Irish racism no longer counts, because it could possibly be used to bolster a viewpoint that you disagree with. I am actually angry right now. You have broken past the mental calluses I've gained reading your posts over the years and [i]drawn blood[/i].
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44882892]Before reading any of this please not that I have never said that racism is good in any way at all; it's just that some of it is more understandable. That's my big point right there. Like, which has more weight behind it, a white dude calling a black guy a nigger, or a black dude calling a white guy a cracker? Should be an obvious answer. . . . But do you know what doesn't help? Whipping out personal anecdotes and bullshit canned stuff like "but I'm white and I've been beaten up because of my race!!!" . . . [/QUOTE] Your opinion is that racism perpetrated by whites is much more important than racism perpetrated by non-whites. This is presumably based on large scale studies that categorize people based on their income, their education, and their race. Personally, I think a person should be judged by their actions, not by their race or their racial history. As a quick side note, I actually have been beaten up for being white, ended up in the hospital over it. Racism isn't dead, you are correct.
[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;44883525] Personally, I think a person should be judged by their actions, not by their race or their racial history.[/QUOTE] That's great, but the social structure isn't set up that way.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44877213]I just think it's funny how fp always complains about people getting offended easily, except when it's white people/men on the other end it's especially the case on wacko conservative sites, like the only sources listed here case in point: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1394602&p=44840757&viewfull=1#post44840757[/url][/QUOTE] 1) Trigger warnings are not even remotely in the same vein as stereotyping an entire race as stupid/annoying/etc directly and unambiguously 2) I'm sure people here would be just as offended if not more if it was relating to any other race, I know I would be 3) I personally have no problem with trigger warnings for severe things like rape 4) fuck right off, you're just trying to stir shit up with useless posts
as a person of minority (vietnamese), whose majority of friends are minorities, and living in a racist state (arizona) id like to give my two cents. i rag on white people constantly within my own privacy as one of the methods for venting out stress, anxiety, anger, etc towards the majority (which happens to be white people in arizona) that constantly make racist remarks on me, stereotypes, all that fun stuff. the difference is if i say these racist remarks i cant act upon them since i dont have the power to challenge the status quo, but the white people that oust me can. a good chunk of my friends experience this harassment as well and the majority of society happens to be white people, and whenever i hear people say "you cant fight fire with fire!" you want me to just shut up and deal with it? its not as easy as simply walking away from these people when theyre everywhere. i cant go on much without referencing personal issues (childhood, stuff like that) but thats how i feel. its not even near the stuff people make it out to be, like "kill all white people" or some shit.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44883538]That's great, but the social structure isn't set up that way.[/QUOTE] Can I be a racist? My ancestors on both sides were oppressed by the American government. [QUOTE=BLUcody;44883604]but thats how i feel. its not even near the stuff people make it out to be, like "kill all white people" or some shit.[/QUOTE] Its all about how you treat people. I can't imagine being a minority in a state with crazy racially profiling sheriffs but it really isn't much of an excuse to hate all white people.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44883784]Can I be a racist? My ancestors on both sides were oppressed by the American government.[/QUOTE] I don't even know who you are, and frankly I don't even care. But our social structure is setup in a way where someone of a certain background and race is born with a different situation, which needs to be fixed in my opinion because I don't believe in stratified societies. The reason we talk about statistics is because people can be victims of statistics.
[QUOTE=Elspin;44883602]1) Trigger warnings are not even remotely in the same vein as stereotyping an entire race as stupid/annoying/etc directly and unambiguously 2) I'm sure people here would be just as offended if not more if it was relating to any other race, I know I would be 3) I personally have no problem with trigger warnings for severe things like rape 4) fuck right off, you're just trying to stir shit up with useless posts[/QUOTE] You're missing the point. The point is that it's quite common on fp to complain about people being easily offended or not able to take a joke when it's any group but their own. And I like how I'm the one trying to stir shit and not the only sources posted, which are from insanely biased and batshit conservative sites specifically written to outrage white dudes.
[QUOTE=BLUcody;44883604]as a person of minority (vietnamese), whose majority of friends are minorities, and living in a racist state (arizona) id like to give my two cents. i rag on white people constantly within my own privacy as one of the methods for venting out stress, anxiety, anger, etc towards the majority (which happens to be white people in arizona) that constantly make racist remarks on me, stereotypes, all that fun stuff. the difference is if i say these racist remarks i cant act upon them since i dont have the power to challenge the status quo, but the white people that oust me can. a good chunk of my friends experience this harassment as well and the majority of society happens to be white people, and whenever i hear people say "you cant fight fire with fire!" you want me to just shut up and deal with it? its not as easy as simply walking away from these people when theyre everywhere. i cant go on much without referencing personal issues (childhood, stuff like that) but thats how i feel. its not even near the stuff people make it out to be, like "kill all white people" or some shit.[/QUOTE] You can insult people without being racist.
I wish I could word this better, but, I don't know how it is in america so much only that race is a very white/non-white-centric issue based on the country's recent (enough) history, and while it is true that white people are the most privileged, lumping all white people into one group and saying things like [quote]White people “are arrogant”, they “say something stupid” and “get too friendly too fast,”[/quote] just doesn't help and only gratifies the suspicion of actual racists that "liberals" and minorities and such are conspiring against all whites, which pretty much sparked that whole weird "anti-racist is anti white!!" thing [QUOTE=Rangergxi;44883784]I can't imagine being a minority in a state with crazy racially profiling sheriffs but it really isn't much of an excuse to hate all white people.[/QUOTE] Sometimes you have to think of it this way There are poor black people stuck in the ghetto whose only experience with white people is when the cops come Their attitude towards white people may not be logical but it is understandable
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44883868]You're missing the point. The point is that it's quite common on fp to complain about people being easily offended or not able to take a joke when it's any group but their own. And I like how I'm the one trying to stir shit and not the only sources posted, which are from insanely biased and batshit conservative sites specifically written to outrage white dudes.[/QUOTE] No, you're the one who's apparently too incompetent to grasp the point - these people aren't just being dicks, if people wanna call me a cracker they can go right ahead, my feelings aren't gonna be hurt. The thing that's different about this is these people are being [i]paid[/i] with tax dollars to do so. [editline]more[/editline] Like if you wanna legit compare people saying "oh they should have thicker skin" comments (which I never even said I necessarily agree with), compare them with something that actually matches - like non-white celebrities calling whites "crackers". Nobody cares for the most part. A few people get uppity but it's never really a big deal.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;44883868]You're missing the point. The point is that it's quite common on fp to complain about people being easily offended or not able to take a joke when it's any group but their own. And I like how I'm the one trying to stir shit and not the only sources posted, which are from insanely biased and batshit conservative sites specifically written to outrage white dudes.[/QUOTE] I've never been part of the "get a thicker skin" bandwagon. Am I allowed to think that this is kind of ridiculous? edit: Eh but are there any sources other than the one in the OP? It'd be funny if this were some absolutely massive exaggeration. Well, less funny, more depressing.
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