Group that created list "Pitfalls of working with White People" received government funding.
148 replies, posted
Every time I read "people of color" I feel weirded out
Because that term isn't exactly PC everywhere
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44887428]"I don't know what racism towards Irish people was, nor have I ever experienced it, so it can't have been that big a thing!"
[/QUOTE]
Should really stop comparing the severity of Irish and African racism, you're just simultaneously diminishing two different forms of injustice that both people suffered.
The Irish/Gaelic v Norman/English/British conflict stems 750 years of nearly unending warfare and sectarian conflict which largely accounts for "racial" animosity and religious division between Irish and self-identifying British people.
Irish people were accepted without friction into French, German and Scots-Highland communities in Canada and America, it was predominantly people with English and Scots-Lowland baggage that discriminated against Irish people.
Africans on the other hand were deemed barbaric and/or subhuman people who were enslaved almost as fast as they were contacted by European explorers and colonists, they didn't get 750 years to fight back on nearly equal footing.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44887537]Stop comparing the severity and legitimacy of Irish and African racism, you're just simultaneously diminishing two different forms of injustice that both people suffered.
The Irish/Gaelic v Norman/English/British conflict stems 750 years of nearly unending warfare and sectarian conflict which largely accounts for "racial" animosity and religious division between Irish and self-identifying British people.
Irish people were accepted without friction into French, German and Scots-Highland communities in Canada and America, it was predominantly people with English and Scots-Lowland baggage that discriminated against Irish people.
Africans on the other hand were deemed barbaric and/or subhuman people who were enslaved almost as fast as they were contacted by European explorers and colonists, they didn't get 750 years to fight back on nearly equal footing.[/QUOTE]
irish people were essentially starved as a race, and millions died or fled ireland
like, we're not playing racial top-trumps here but you're basically saying that irish people didn't have it that bad
in fact that's exactly what you're saying
you've basically said "stop comparing the two" and then gone and fucking compared the two
I'm not surprised that the Irish card was brought up. The African American community and the catholic nationalist community in NI in the 1960s had a lot of common, in fact NICRA was inspired by the civil rights movement of MLK and they went through very similar hardships. This is all 20th century history, not the middle ages.
I can't say i'm very happy with the way all that has been marginalized in this thread because it doesn't fit into someones worldview so easily.
Interesting how when Donald Sterling says some astoundingly racist stuff about black people its "his personal belief he's not hurting anyone leave him alone."
Then we get a single pamphlet saying some provocative things about white people and suddenly its time to break out the pitchforks and torches?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44887561]you've basically said "stop comparing the two" and then gone and fucking compared the two[/QUOTE]
I'm comparing the two in the origins of their situations, not in the magnitude of their suffering. I JUST STATED that the irish had been dealing with subjugation and ethnic/religious conflict 750 years (one that they didn't start, unless you're including macmurrough into it), it's the longest conflict in human history, I am NOT diminishing the suffering of the Irish
However with that said, the origins of "racial" discrimination against everybody who isn't white, and the political/ethnic discrimination of the Irish are two completely different forms of discrimination that happened for two completely different reasons.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;44887628]Interesting how when Donald Sterling says some astoundingly racist stuff about black people its "his personal belief he's not hurting anyone leave him alone."
Then we get a single pamphlet saying some provocative things about white people and suddenly its time to break out the pitchforks and torches?[/QUOTE]
or alternatively it's two different people and facepunch is not a hivemind
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;44887628]Interesting how when Donald Sterling says some astoundingly racist stuff about black people its "his personal belief he's not hurting anyone leave him alone."
Then we get a single pamphlet saying some provocative things about white people and suddenly its time to break out the pitchforks and torches?[/QUOTE]
The difference is pretty simple between the two actually. The first is a private person (who while powerfull is still only a private person) acting as a private person. The second is an organisation receiving public grants. (in this case probably not as a poster above said but you get the difference)
Now there's a difference if Donald Sterling was acting from a publicly funded position, say the president of the US as an example. But as long as he's merely a private person...
Now his employer might decide though, that a person who has such ideas and says them out in public isn't correct for him so he's in his full right to fire him. (consider it's a fairly rich guy though, it might not do much at all)
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44887537]Should really stop comparing the severity of Irish and African racism, you're just simultaneously diminishing two different forms of injustice that both people suffered.
The Irish/Gaelic v Norman/English/British conflict stems 750 years of nearly unending warfare and sectarian conflict which largely accounts for "racial" animosity and religious division between Irish and self-identifying British people.
Irish people were accepted without friction into French, German and Scots-Highland communities in Canada and America, it was predominantly people with English and Scots-Lowland baggage that discriminated against Irish people.
Africans on the other hand were deemed barbaric and/or subhuman people who were enslaved almost as fast as they were contacted by European explorers and colonists, they didn't get 750 years to fight back on nearly equal footing.[/QUOTE]
Feels kinda odd that you're seemingly denigrating a number of fairly powerful african empires that did exist for a pretty long time and successfully traded with european powers. Admittedly in the end they collapsed from economical standpoints, but completely ignoring them or their success seems kinda odd.
Did European powers move in during this time and use the situation? Absolutely. But remember, that it was powers which were only then moving out of the feudal system (which dehumanised vast swathes of europeans and is in many ways comparable to slave labour) and overall idea of liberties or humanity that we have today didn't exist back then.
Hell there were european serfs in Russia up to the twentieth century, long after slavery was abolished in the US. And you had brutal "post serf" payments up to 1907.
Was slavery, destructive genocidal systematic racism ando ther similar things utterly despicable and deserved to be abolished? Completely. But it was in no way something unique to the US or to non white ethnics. Saying that black people today have it harder due to the abuse in the past as well as lingering racism up to today is completely valid. Saying that there's a significant white group of people facing similar economic hardships who have no right to complain, because they are a part of the majority, is not.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44887642]I'm comparing the two in the origins of their situations, not in the magnitude of their suffering. I JUST STATED that the irish had been dealing with subjugation and ethnic/religious conflict 750 years (one that they didn't start, unless you're including macmurrough into it), it's the longest conflict in human history, I am NOT diminishing the suffering of the Irish
However with that said, the origins of "racial" discrimination against everybody who isn't white, and the political/ethnic discrimination of the Irish are two completely different forms of discrimination that happened for two completely different reasons.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but the tone of your post is definitely comparing suffering.
and if you're not comparing that, then great, you've said the bloody obvious
yes irish discrimination and discrimination of black people was different in terms of origin correct
this is obvious to anyone who has even vaguely stared at a history book or understands either one
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44887672]I'm sorry, but the tone of your post is definitely comparing suffering.
and if you're not comparing that, then great, you've said the bloody obvious
yes irish discrimination and discrimination of black people was different in terms of origin
this is obvious to anyone who has even vaguely stared at a history book[/QUOTE]
Then what the fuck are you on about?
Everybody always brings up Irish discrimination as if it's supposed to be some sort of trump-card to state that "color racism" doesn't exist, isn't that what you're doing?
Has it occurred to you that both color/racial racism and racism for political reasons are both existant social phenomena?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44887694]Then what the fuck are you on about?
Everybody always brings up Irish discrimination as if it's supposed to be some sort of trump-card to state that "color racism" doesn't exist, isn't that what you're doing?
Has it occurred to you that both color/racial racism and racism for political reasons are both existant social phenomena?[/QUOTE]
Wait what
irish discrimination was for political reasons? what the fuck are you talking about
irish racism was brought up in this case because milkandcooki's abortion of a post discounts a hideous example of racism and discrimination that he clearly knows fuck all about
and to further hammer home the fucking stupidity of saying that irish racism is somehow incomparable to racism against black people, here's a cartoon of an irish man portrayed as a monkey. Sound familiar?
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Monkeyirishman.jpg[/img]
What does it even mean to "own your own whiteness"?
[QUOTE=Kristviljan;44887733]What does it even mean to "own your own whiteness"?[/QUOTE]
Probably something american and so convoluted it's probably best for us to not worry about
Irish people weren't really considered "white" up until the late 19th Century so trying to use them as a trump card doesn't work and actually backfires when you look into it.
[QUOTE=Explosions;44887777]Irish people weren't really considered "white" up until the late 19th Century so trying to use them as a trump card doesn't work and actually backfires when you look into it.[/QUOTE]
some people still hate irish people over here I'm afraid
not even sure why someone would consider irish racism a trump card of any sort. What does it trump?
[QUOTE=Kristviljan;44887733]What does it even mean to "own your own whiteness"?[/QUOTE]
Whenever I've seen it in the past, it was always some weird way of saying that white people are in some ways the source of evil. Had it not been for white people, there would be no genocides, wars and or slavery.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44887720]Wait what
irish discrimination was for political reasons? what the fuck are you talking about
[/QUOTE]
Irish discrimination was baggage carried purely by British people, it's a religious and ethnic animosity bred solely into British culture by the fact that the Irish fought for so long against subjugation attempts, it's a political, cultural and ethnic bias that exits purely because of a long series of incredibly brutal, yet largely unsuccessful military conquests into Ireland, in which large armies of English, Welsh, and later, Scottish soldiers frequently took part in. In short, anti-irish sentiment is an ultimate product of imperialistic jinogism and religious division, [B]both are political elements
[/B]
Racism by skin color is colloquial among all European peoples, you can take any sample number of any European/white people, and regardless of nationality or political history you will always find a great number who have animosity for people of different skin color, and it still manifests itself institutionally. The subjugation of the Irish was incredibly brutal, but it had little to do with skin color, it was a bias and hatred held by British people alone, (thus why Irish were able to integrate into non-british European communities) and this is a discussion about issues of colloquial racism that still linger today throughout the world, not just anti-Irish racism among people of British decent.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44888061]Irish discrimination was baggage carried purely by British people, it's a religious and ethnic animosity bred solely into British culture by the fact that the Irish fought for so long against subjugation attempts, it's a political, cultural and ethnic bias that exits purely because of a long series of incredibly brutal, yet largely unsuccessful military conquests into Ireland, in which large armies of English, Welsh, and later, Scottish soldiers frequently took part in. In short, anti-irish sentiment is an ultimate product of imperialistic jinogism and religious division, [B]both are political elements
[/B]
Racism by skin color is colloquial among all European peoples, you can take any sample number of any European/white people, and regardless of nationality or political history you will always find a great number who have animosity for people of different skin color, and it still manifests itself institutionally. The subjugation of the Irish was incredibly brutal, but it had little to do with skin color, it was a bias and hatred held by British people alone, (thus why Irish were able to integrate into non-british European communities) and this is a discussion about issues of colloquial racism that still linger today throughout the world, not just anti-Irish racism among people of British decent.[/QUOTE]
What I will agree on is that irish racism originates from failed attempts at imperialism, that does not mean it continued to exist as a result of political reasons. To the common, average man it was because they were subhuman, because they were irish. The political reasons might explain the origin, but they do not explain the continuation.
and "held by british people alone" is simply not true. The british empire was large, and irish racism was found in the [I]new york times[/I].. You're incorrect to think that it was only in Britain. Britain was big at the time.
And I don't even see what you're arguing at this point. The point towards milkandcooki was that he belittled something he didn't understand, you're arguing that the two kinds of racism have differences. Of course they do, as I said before, this is obvious. What is more striking is the similarities between the treatment and stereotyping of black people, and the treatment and stereotyping of Irish people. Not saying they're the same, that'd be stupid, but they're terrifyingly similar in a lot of cases
What annoys me is that people like milkandcooki inadvertently shit on other crimes or social injustices when trying to hamfistedly put forward their own because for some reason they feel it necessary to prove "X injustice is WORSE THAN ALL THE REST!!!"
The following is coming from a mostly american perspective. The main reason why the whole Irish discrimination is met with kind of a non-sequitur attitude is because the past Irish discrimination does not affect people TODAY nearly as much as does past discrimination against black people.
A disproportionate amount of black families are in poverty directly because of past discrimination. Not as much so for Irish people in America.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;44877163]No, this group is fucking retarded.
A group that claims to honor individuals for their cultural differences yet at the same it happily stereotypes white people in a very negative way.[/QUOTE]
It's almost like you don't recognise satire of white racism.
Oh wait, you clearly don't.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;44884335]The flyer in question: (was huge, posted as thumbnail. Just click it to see it)
[t]http://www.progressivestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/wpc-flyer-painted.png[/t]
Doesn't look out-of-context to me.
Change that flyer to any other race and the SJW posters of Facepunch would throw a shitfit (along with the majority of the rest of us, because that is retarded). But if its about white people, it's ok? I guess the closer you get to bashing white cis men the more points your argument is worth or something, because I can't see how the hell else you'd rationalize something so blatantly stupid.[/QUOTE]
Yes, these people literally believe that being racist against whites is a lesser offence than being racist against blacks. They literally believe that it's better. I can't understand this, it borders on being so apologetic that it's condescending. Acting like black people can't handle racism but whites can. People who live in the real world don't bother comparing the difference between being racist against whites vs being racist against blacks because either way you are a racist. There's no difference, what has happened in the past does not make it ok for a black guy to be racist, it simply doesn't.
If you are a racist, you are a bad person.
I'm gonna print this thread out and bring it to my family reunion to see what my adoptive family thinks about what milkandcooki has said, and I'm almost certain that out of everyone here they will feel that milkandcooki is the most racist, bigoted, condescending person in this discussion who feels that he must pity the black people and treat them differently than whites in cases of racism.
Why should I give a shit if someone has a fucked up view of 'everyone' of my skin color? Why should I take anything personally that isn't an attack at me as a person?
[QUOTE=frozensoda;44890785]
I'm gonna print this thread out and bring it to my family reunion to see what my adoptive family thinks about what milkandcooki has said, and I'm almost certain that out of everyone here they will feel that milkandcooki is the most racist, bigoted, condescending person in this discussion who feels that he must pity the black people and treat them differently than whites in cases of racism.[/QUOTE]
This forum is wild!
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;44887642]I'm comparing the two in the origins of their situations, not in the magnitude of their suffering. I JUST STATED that the irish had been dealing with subjugation and ethnic/religious conflict 750 years (one that they didn't start, unless you're including macmurrough into it), it's the longest conflict in human history, I am NOT diminishing the suffering of the Irish
However with that said, the origins of "racial" discrimination against everybody who isn't white, and the political/ethnic discrimination of the Irish are two completely different forms of discrimination that happened for two completely different reasons.[/QUOTE]
The discrimination against various groups in Europe have almost always been ethnic based, not "race based", with the sole exception of the psuedoscientific creations of "races" like Nords, Anglo-Saxons, Aryans, etc that was the basis for discrimination (ethnic discrimination) of groups like Romani, Irish, Basques, South Italians, Balkan people, Slavic people, Saami people, Jewish people, you name it, you got it basically. Attempting to paint an American-centric viewpoint of racism in Europe as being based entirely on skin colour is really really wrong and just erasing things like these so as to come off as 'intersectional' about how race relations work and it's bad pls stop
Also, The PROBLEM that milkandcooki's post is based upon is the inability to distinguish ethical and practical qualms - That is to say, ETHICALLY, most Western viewpoints see racial or ethnic bigotry (the OED definition of Racism) as being wrong no matter what. This is just a fact. Attempting to dispute the ethical wrongness of racism is a bad thing™ to do and it is exactly what SigmaLambda and milkandcooki's definitions of racism are and it is a BAD THING™ TO DO DON'T DO IT PLEASE.
HOWEVER, the reality of the situation is that in the United States, overwhelmingly, there is still a lot of societal backwash that needs flushing from the eras of literal, institutional systems of race related segregation and bigotry codified in everything from the Constitution to the Supreme Court to Congress etc etc etc. SO BY AND LARGE, yes, the overwhelming amount of focus should be on eliminating and/or mitigating the effects of racism that still exist in American society towards African Americans (and Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans etc). IF there were a situation wherein there was an actual example of say, I don't know, violent, systematic attacks by the NoI on white people based purely on race, then this would be a serious, bad thing™ that would also be focused on. BUT as we don't exist in a society where we have the ability to control people's thoughts, the most we can do about interpersonal racism is to ostracize racist behaviour, which is astoundingly easy to do if someone were to do this towards majority groups.
Basically the whole point boils down to ETHICALLY the complaints that "this is racist and bad" are correct, but attempting to paint this as a PRACTICALLY bad problem is overblown and people need to calm down because the world is not ending because someone who had bad opinions™ got federal funding for a while. We've funded a lot of bad opinions™ in the past and we've survived.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44883256]We should stop looking at racial/ethnic collectives if we want to get rid of racism. It isn't about words, its all about how you treat other people. We should be striving to treat people the same without any consideration for race or ethnicity and to do this we have to recognize that all racism is bad.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44883791]
But our social structure is setup in a way where someone of a certain background and race is born with a different situation, which needs to be fixed in my opinion because I don't believe in stratified societies.[/QUOTE]
We should be focusing on helping all poorer disadvantaged people. Society shouldn't be tolerating any racism. Just imagine a "Whites only" scholarship.
You can't just assume that all blacks are poor and need government assistance.
wait wait wait,
can everyone in the thread just stop and think for a second
[I]how do we even know if this is actually real?[/I]
when you search for this on google, literally no other news source reports on this except for the one source in the OP, or otherwise some random blogs with a loud or otherwise [I]extremely obvious[/I] conservative bias. and the OP's source is garbage. it's literally the conservative huffington post.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller[/url]
this would not be the first time that racists and whiny conservatives have circulated some stupid fib to try and make pro-diversity and anti-racist movements look bad.
seriously, look it up on google. nothing legitimate comes up for it.
[QUOTE=joes33431;44892563]wait wait wait,
can everyone in the thread just stop and think for a second
[I]how do we even know if this is actually real?[/I]
when you search for this on google, literally no other news source reports on this except for the one source in the OP, or otherwise some random blogs with a loud or otherwise [I]extremely obvious[/I] conservative bias. and the OP's source is garbage. it's literally the conservative huffington post.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller[/URL]
this would not be the first time that racists and whiny conservatives have circulated some stupid fib to try and make pro-diversity and anti-racist movements look bad.
seriously, look it up on google. nothing legitimate comes up for it.[/QUOTE]
Also, can't find it anywhere on their site either
[URL]http://www.beyonddiversity.org/[/URL]
[QUOTE=joes33431;44892563]wait wait wait,
can everyone in the thread just stop and think for a second
[I]how do we even know if this is actually real?[/I]
when you search for this on google, literally no other news source reports on this except for the one source in the OP, or otherwise some random blogs with a loud or otherwise [I]extremely obvious[/I] conservative bias. and the OP's source is garbage. it's literally the conservative huffington post.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller[/url]
this would not be the first time that racists and whiny conservatives have circulated some stupid fib to try and make pro-diversity and anti-racist movements look bad.
seriously, look it up on google. nothing legitimate comes up for it.[/QUOTE]
could it be that we were actually arguing [I] pointlessly?![/I]
[QUOTE=Valnar;44892698]Also, can't find it anywhere on their site either
[URL]http://www.beyonddiversity.org/[/URL][/QUOTE]
I spent about an hour looking around for another source for the flyer, wasn't able to find one. It is totally possible that it is a fake, but then it's not that unbelievable in today's white guilt world.
I wouldn't mind if it was a fake, it would mean no one simultaneously cares enough and is stupid enough to make that flyer a reality.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;44887628]Interesting how when Donald Sterling says some astoundingly racist stuff about black people its "his personal belief he's not hurting anyone leave him alone."
Then we get a single pamphlet saying some provocative things about white people and suddenly its time to break out the pitchforks and torches?[/QUOTE]
and the worse part of it all is this has been pointed out several times and people in this thread are just ignoring it or responding "nuh uh"
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