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148 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44892372] Just imagine a "Whites only" scholarship.
[/QUOTE]
Okay I'm trying to imagine this:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scholarships.jpg[/img]
[url]http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/13/318153/scholarships-go-disproportionately-to-white-students/[/url]
It's very difficult but I'm trying.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44880219]
*Don't bother going "what about the Irish," I've heard that argument a billion times and its nothing but a meaningless fallback remark.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously calling the entire Troubles and all the bigotry and persecution and violence that came with it "a meaningless fallback remark"?
That's disgusting.
You can't disregard something as awful as The Troubles were just because it goes against your argument.
[QUOTE=The Baconator;44893449]and the worse part of it all is this has been pointed out several times and people in this thread are just ignoring it or responding "nuh uh"[/QUOTE]
No one responds because it's absolute nonsense. There was a MASSIVE uproar about Donald Sterling including, but not limited to, him being forced out of the NBA.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44893463]Okay I'm trying to imagine this:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scholarships.jpg[/img]
[url]http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/13/318153/scholarships-go-disproportionately-to-white-students/[/url][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The issue here isn’t racial discrimination, it’s a symptom of the fact that the incentive structure of American higher education is totally screwy. Schools want to produce two things. One is rich alumni who give them money, and the other is high ratings from US News and World Report. Both goals can be pursued either by investing resources in recruiting better inputs or else by investing resources in doing a better job of teaching. It turns out to be more cost-effective to invest in recruiting better inputs.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44893463]Okay I'm trying to imagine this:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scholarships.jpg[/img]
[url]http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/13/318153/scholarships-go-disproportionately-to-white-students/[/url]
It's very difficult but I'm trying.[/QUOTE]
Oh cool you gave an out of context pie chart.
Maybe 75% of grant recipients are white because, I dunno, [B] about 75% of the country is white?[/B]
Or maybe because more white people receive higher SAT scores due to higher availability of quality education. (which isn't a problem with the colleges or the allocation of the scholarships, it's an entirely different, and much bigger issue)
[editline]24th May 2014[/editline]
Also what Rangergxi said
[QUOTE=kitthehacker;44893611]Oh cool you gave an out of context pie chart.
Maybe 75% of grant recipients are white because, I dunno, [B] about 75% of the country is white?[/B]
Or maybe because more white people receive higher SAT scores due to higher availability of quality education. (which isn't a problem with the colleges or the allocation of the scholarships, it's an entirely different, and much bigger issue)
[editline]24th May 2014[/editline]
Also what Rangergxi said[/QUOTE]
it says it right in the first line of his link...
White students receive 75% of the grants and are 62% of the students.
also the link to the actual study thats in the article.
[URL]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/URL]
also talks about it being disproportionate in favor of white students.
[QUOTE=kitthehacker;44893611]Oh cool you gave an out of context pie chart.
Maybe 75% of grant recipients are white because, I dunno, [B] about 75% of the country is white?[/B]
Or maybe because more white people receive higher SAT scores due to higher availability of quality education. (which isn't a problem with the colleges or the allocation of the scholarships, it's an entirely different, and much bigger issue)
[editline]24th May 2014[/editline]
Also what Rangergxi said[/QUOTE]
Okay so is the story about why scholarships which target people who might not necessarily know about them clear now?
It's not out of context at all. If most scholarships go disproportionately towards white students then it's only fair to black students that some scholarships target them.
It's not difficult to think about this.
[QUOTE=Valnar;44893633]it says it right in the first line of his link...
White students receive 75% of the grants and are 62% of the students.
also the link to the actual study thats in the article.
[URL]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/URL]
also talks about it being disproportionate in favor of white students.[/QUOTE]
Do white students meet the requirements more often? If so, then it still doesn't show discrimination.
Some requirements, like higher GPAs, would favor whites and asians, on average, but also be completely non-racially discriminatory. ([URL="http://nationsreportcard.gov/hsts_2009/race_gpa.asp?tab_id=tab2&subtab_id=Tab_1"]http://nationsreportcard.gov/hsts_2009/race_gpa.aspx?tab_id=tab1&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart[/URL])
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44882892]Before reading any of this please not that I have never said that racism is good in any way at all; it's just that some of it is more understandable. That's my big point right there.
Like, which has more weight behind it, a white dude calling a black guy a nigger, or a black dude calling a white guy a cracker? Should be an obvious answer.[/QUOTE]
Weight would be determined by society and history. Yeah, the black guy is getting it worse in that scenario. Hard to argue that.
[QUOTE]White people have never experienced systematic oppression (in the US, but this applies to like 90% of the world anyways). That alone should be a decent explanation, but I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt by attempting to explain my point a little bit better.
US history is nasty, and is filled to the brim with the terrible treatment of minorities. We brought over black slaves to build america up till the 1800's, we scammed the Native Americans over and over again and basically killed all of them off, we hired Chinese workers to build railroads and shit for like zero pay, black segregation and lynching existed up until a shockingly recent time, we put Asian people into camps during world war 2 regardless of their citizenship or allegiance to Japan, we have a huge stigma against Hispanic people because of border crossings and them taking lower-than-min-wage manual labor jobs, and recently we've developed a horrible case of the "that brown person must be a terrorist!" since 2001, and a bunch of other shit I'm forgetting, but you get the picture. [/QUOTE]
The fact you just laugh off so much irish american and scottish american history to bolster your own point is sickening.
The very least you can do is admit that it was real and meaningful. You trivialize it. You really do.
[QUOTE]Slavery in the US is gone, Native Americans are (forcefully) integrated to the point where you can't even call them native anymore, and in general you most likely won't get killed for no reason other than your skin color. But you've gotta be out of your [I]goddamn mind[/I] to think that we can easily erase hundreds of years of racism and oppression in just part of one generation. If racism had magically disappeared, then why do black people have a statistically higher chance of being in poverty or not graduating from school? For that reason you should come to understand that you, a white dude, calling somebody a racial slur has a huge negative weight behind it than a non-white person calling you something. [/QUOTE]
Because we haven't fixed the problems yet, the systematic problems. But, you know what doesn't fix those problems? Attacking people for being "racist" the way you do while you just slough off arguments like they can't apply to you.
[QUOTE]You can pull your "My ancestors and/or I weren't slave owners" bullshit all you want, but it's not going to help. Hell, some of these atrocities are so recent that your parents probably grew up during some of it. Because of all this terrible history, you should at least try to [I]understand[/I] why someone who's part of a group that's been treated like shit for the better part of human history would be upset, [I]regardless of their personal experience with that history[/I]. You didn't directly contribute to racial segregation? Well first of all, who the hell thinks that racists and ex-slave owners or ex-KKK members are going to be the ones to make the world a less racist place? I'm going out on a limb and assuming that users here aren't racist, or at the very least don't think negatively of [I]some[/I] races. That's good! If you're part of that (hopefully) majority, you're already on your way to helping combat racism.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea how stupid this sounds do you? How is anyone modern responsible for the actions of their parents? They may benefit from them, but they are not RESPONSIBLE like you seem to make it out to be. They do not have to look back and be ashamed of themselves. Their ancestors? Sure, but why for fucks sakes Milkandcooki, should anyone be ashamed of their white history? Oh, there we go. White. That word. You are a racist like any other. You don't help combat racism by throwing everyones birth race of being white back in their face like it's their fucking fault. They didn't choose it.
[QUOTE]But do you know what doesn't help? Whipping out personal anecdotes and bullshit canned stuff like "but I'm white and I've been beaten up because of my race!!!" or "i didn't own slaves so it's not my issue" or "what about the irish, they were white and they were enslaved" or "black people are like that because X" or "i'm white but i'm not privileged" [I]acting as if it's irrefutable evidence that racism is dead[/I]. Downplaying someone else's issues that [I]stem from hundreds of years and several generations of racism and oppression [/I]by bringing up your own which probably happened for a completely different reason is nothing but a cop-out statement. I'm sorry if you don't understand this point and take it as me making fun of white poor people for some reason. [/QUOTE]
People don't say it "like it's irrefutable evidence racism is dead". Just that times have changed. That teenagers and mid 20 and 30 somethings who've grown up to be friends of coloured people(literally everyone of my friends was coloured before I was 16) don't understand how people like you can be so fucking accusatory. Racism doesn't die by us continuing to itch on the wound and pour salt in it. It doesn't get fixed by blaming every white person who isn't racist for their skin colours and inherit privileges.
[QUOTE]I know Facepunch loves to whine when somebody says this, but you're part of the problem if you're spewing this "everyone who uses racial slurs is equally bad!" bullshit, because it's just flat out not true. Racism is pretty bad, but it depends on who's directing it, and who it's being directed at. History's in the past, but it's affected where we're at now so try to think about that.[/QUOTE]
I know you love to whine about how facepunch isn't progressive enough for you, but you wouldn't know if it was or wasn't because you have no interest in that. you just want to inflame people and look down on others.
You make the differentiation that racism isn't always super bad, it's only really bad when it's against the right people and you don't even understand why that's stupid. Maybe you won't ever realize it, but you're never going to get anyone to change their mind about racism if you can't even have a self consistent view.
You never make any cause you stand for look more reasonable once you've defended it.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;44893380]I spent about an hour looking around for another source for the flyer, wasn't able to find one. [b]It is totally possible that it is a fake, but then it's not that unbelievable in today's white guilt world.[/b]
I wouldn't mind if it was a fake, it would mean no one simultaneously cares enough and is stupid enough to make that flyer a reality.[/QUOTE]
Hahaha holy shit
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;44882892]Racism is pretty bad, but it depends on who's directing it, and who it's being directed at. [/QUOTE]
Again, you see the world in black and white (instead of seeing them as people) and you downplay the issues of one side. There's a word for that.
I am sorry that I have to tell you this again but you are part of the problem that is racism.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44893463]Okay I'm trying to imagine this:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scholarships.jpg[/img]
[url]http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/13/318153/scholarships-go-disproportionately-to-white-students/[/url]
It's very difficult but I'm trying.[/QUOTE]
this cannot entirely be attributed to deliberate, current racism
however, it can be attributed to the limited access to higher education that blacks have due to long-standing socioeconomic inequality and differential quality of public schooling, which were caused by racism in the [I]past[/I], and then perpetuated by a failure of society to do anything meaningful about the problem.
[QUOTE=sgman91;44894059]Do white students meet the requirements more often? If so, then it still doesn't show discrimination.
Some requirements, like higher GPAs, would favor whites and asians, on average, but also be completely non-racially discriminatory. ([URL="http://nationsreportcard.gov/hsts_2009/race_gpa.asp?tab_id=tab2&subtab_id=Tab_1"]http://nationsreportcard.gov/hsts_2009/race_gpa.aspx?tab_id=tab1&subtab_id=Tab_1#chart[/URL])[/QUOTE]
It shows that there is an issue in society.
It means that there is something causing a disproportionate amount of white people get better education or better tools to succeed compared to other races.
Just because it isn't deliberate doesn't mean there isn't an underlying issue in society that needs to be dealt with.
Also a main part of that study was to show that the whole myth of "white people don't get scholarships as much" is wrong.
A large population of poor people are African Americans. Lets work on this poor people problem.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;44893463]Okay I'm trying to imagine this:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scholarships.jpg[/img]
[url]http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/09/13/318153/scholarships-go-disproportionately-to-white-students/[/url]
It's very difficult but I'm trying.[/QUOTE]
That chart follows almost exactly the race distribution in America and shows absolutely nothing surprising.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44897723]A large population of poor people are African Americans. Lets work on this poor people problem.[/QUOTE]
I obviously don't disagree with helping all poor people, because that is statement that no one can possibly disagree with.
But that doesn't preclude also trying to fix the issue of disproportionate amount of poor people are minorities, or fixing the issue that a black person in poverty has it statistically worse than a white person in the same poverty.
[QUOTE=katbug;44897764]That chart follows almost exactly the race distribution in America and shows absolutely nothing surprising.[/QUOTE]
you're like the 2nd person now on this page to have responded like that and not read the first line of his link.
[QUOTE=Valnar;44897797]I obviously don't disagree with helping all poor people, because that is statement that no one can possibly disagree with.
But that doesn't preclude also trying to fix the issue of disproportionate amount of poor people are minorities, or fixing the issue that a black person in poverty has it statistically worse than a white person in the same poverty.
you're like the 2nd person now on this page to have responded like that and not read the first line of his link.[/QUOTE]
I did. It's only a 13 percent difference, which can be easily drawn back to poverty.
This in no way makes it a "white exclusive" scholarship, and does not excuse the sleu of race-exclusive scholarships
[QUOTE=Valnar;44896477]It shows that there is an issue in society.
It means that there is something causing a disproportionate amount of white people get better education or better tools to succeed compared to other races.
Just because it isn't deliberate doesn't mean there isn't an underlying issue in society that needs to be dealt with.
Also a main part of that study was to show that the whole myth of "white people don't get scholarships as much" is wrong.[/QUOTE]
Aren't the biggest outliers in terms of education asians though? In terms of percentage of tertiary education versus population.
dude fuck this racist shit i'm turning red in the face reading this, I could sit here and talk shit about non Caucasian folk all fucking day. This tops the list of the most retarded shit of 2014.
[QUOTE=katbug;44898012]I did. It's only a 13 percent difference, which can be easily drawn back to poverty.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmmmmm I wonder what the cause of such a discrepancy in poverty rates could be.....
I mean you're literally saying "black people don't have a harder time getting into college than white people because they're black, they have a harder time getting into college because they're poorer than white people. I don't see any racism here..."
The fact remains that, somewhere down the line, some factor makes it harder for a black person to end up at college than a white person. If that factor didn't happen during the college application process, then it happened in employment; if it didn't happen in employment, then it happened in public education, etc. etc. The systemic racism is still there; it's not just some absurd statstical coincidence that black people have higher poverty rates than white people.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;44894338]Hahaha holy shit[/QUOTE]
Another quality post brought to you by Trogdon.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44879240]also I don't give a shit about which race you're talking about, if you are stereotyping a race in a pamphlet by ascribing negative traits to the colour of people's skins, you are a racist
anyone who argues about this not being true, is also a racist[/QUOTE]
b-b-b-but racism is power + privilege * my feelings² - pi and divided by body weight [IMG]http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-saddowns.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44898952]Hmmmmmm I wonder what the cause of such a discrepancy in poverty rates could be.....
I mean you're literally saying "black people don't have a harder time getting into college than white people because they're black, they have a harder time getting into college because they're poorer than white people. I don't see any racism here..."
The fact remains that, somewhere down the line, some factor makes it harder for a black person to end up at college than a white person. If that factor didn't happen during the college application process, then it happened in employment; if it didn't happen in employment, then it happened in public education, etc. etc. The systemic racism is still there; it's not just some absurd statstical coincidence that black people have higher poverty rates than white people.[/QUOTE]
Many things cause the poverty rate difference, ranging from culture to location.
we should be basing scholarships on income, not race.
[QUOTE=katbug;44899708]Many things cause the poverty rate difference, ranging from culture to location.
we should be basing scholarships on income, not race.[/QUOTE]
the primary thing that caused the poverty rate difference was racism.
when integration was allowed, blacks moved into traditionally only-white communities, and many of the whites moved away in response, taking all of the jobs (that only they were allowed to create) with them. in the absence of work, there was poverty and there was crime. the poverty and the crime then served to perpetuate themselves in the absence of any tangible relief to the problem. it's not like these locations were always poor forever, our country and the people of our country made them that way. and furthermore, the culture spawned out of the poverty, not the other way around.
the reason things aren't changing is because so many people are content to blame the black race for the income inequality between races, which is racist in of itself.
what's worse is that all our government has done (or otherwise has the power to do in the political climate) is bandage the problem with welfare or artificially remove the poverty problem by gentrifying minorities and starting doomed-to-fail eminent domain projects.
[QUOTE=joes33431;44899944]when integration was allowed, blacks moved into traditionally only-white communities, and many of the whites moved away in response, taking all of the jobs (that only they were allowed to create) with them. in the absence of work, there was poverty and there was crime. the poverty and the crime then served to perpetuate themselves in the absence of any tangible relief to the problem. it's not like these locations were always poor forever, our country and the people of our country made them that way. and furthermore, the culture spawned out of the poverty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
could you care as to show me where it says this is the case? i'm not sure if integration caused an increase in poverty
[QUOTE=katbug;44899708]Many things cause the poverty rate difference, ranging from culture to location.
[/QUOTE]
Well then why have black people ended up in, and remained in, poorer locations than white people? (there is an explanation for this btw. It involves racism) Again, unless you're going to posit that it's just some crazy statistical anomaly (or you're going to go [I]that route[/I] and suggest that their "culture" [whatever that is] is to blame]), you have yet to posit an explanation for why black people are more likely to end up in poverty that doesn't actually involve their race in the explanation.
[editline]24th May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44899999]could you care as to show me where it says this is the case? i'm not sure if integration caused an increase in poverty[/QUOTE]
That's not quite an accurate description of what happened, but what did happen was an established historical phenomenon known as [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight"]"White Flight"[/URL]. It's worth reading up on.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44900068]That's not quite an accurate description of what happened, but what did happen was an established historical phenomenon known as [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight"]"White Flight"[/URL]. It's worth reading up on.[/QUOTE]
white flight was what i was referring to, yes, i think i originally misread on its causes. my bad. :(
[QUOTE=joes33431;44900308]white flight was what i was referring to, yes, i think i originally misread on its causes. my bad. :([/QUOTE]
No that's still basically what happened; it was a complex set of interacting circumstances [I]in which racism played an integral role[/I]. It was only a generation ago that this was happening and so the idea that people would deny that racism has any lasting legacy in the current state of affairs is ludicrous.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44900602]No that's still basically what happened; it was a complex set of interacting circumstances [I]in which racism played an integral role[/I]. It was only a generation ago that this was happening and so the idea that people would deny that racism has any lasting legacy in the current state of affairs is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]
"yes centuries of systematic hatred and discrimination have disappeared COMPLETELY in 50 years it's true my proof is that the media gets mad when someone is racist & how you don't hear about black on white hate crimes on clinton news network"
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