Berlin House of One: The first church-mosque-synagogue?
98 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186139]I keep hearing "they worship the same god."
Jesus is god in the Christian religion. He isn't god in Islam or Judaism. How is it the same god then?[/QUOTE]
In Christianity Jesus is God manifested in a human, so in that regard you're right - Jesus "is" God. However, Jesus also talks with God in the bible, so "God" is also an entity in itself.
The God in both Islam, Christianity [I]and[/I] Judaism is the same, though a Muslim would probably be more comfortable with admitting that than a Christian or a Jew. A Muslim would never regard Jesus as the son of God (and they'd probably also claim that Jesus was not talking directly with God), though.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186174]Can you explain it to me then? How is Jesus god but also not god?
[editline]22nd June 2014[/editline]
If all three religions share the same god, then Jesus is simultaneously a god, an apocalyptic prophet, and a false messiah.[/QUOTE]
Jesus isn't god, he is the son of god. The big man, Allah / god is the same exact man. The tales on him generally differ exactly but that's what makes them three separate religions. You still have god, you still have Jesus, you still have Abraham, you still have all of them, they are just seen differently.
At most, Jesus is part of the holy trinity and thus is on a level with god himself, but that doesn't make him THE god.
Saying that all 3 of them worship the same god is quite frankly offensive to every one of those religions.
Jesus says in the Bible "I and the Father are one." The people around him try to stone him for claiming to be god, and he doesn't deny this at all. It's extremely clear that he is god himself. Calling him "the Son of God" is just a metaphor describing his human aspect. If you're a Christian and you don't think that Jesus was god, you're doing something incredibly wrong.
In Islam and Judaism, Jesus being god is heresy. In Judaism, the messiah has yet to come and Jesus was just one of the thousands of crackpot prophets in antiquity. It's entirely irreconcilable with Christianity.
In the Quran it says that Jesus will deny that he ever claimed divinity at the end times and that god will vindicate this. Clearly Jesus and god are separate entities in Islam, which is irreconcilable with the Christian god.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186357]Jesus says in the Bible "I and the Father are one." The people around him try to stone him for claiming to be god, and he doesn't deny this at all. It's extremely clear that he is god himself. Calling him "the Son of God" is just a metaphor describing his human aspect. If you're a Christian and you don't think that Jesus was god, you're doing something incredibly wrong.
In Islam and Judaism, Jesus being god is heresy. In Judaism, the messiah has yet to come and Jesus was just one of the thousands of crackpot prophets in antiquity. It's entirely irreconcilable with Christianity.
In the Quran it says that Jesus will deny that he ever claimed divinity at the end times and that god will vindicate this. Clearly Jesus and god are separate entities in Islam, which is irreconcilable with the Christian god.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why you're even bothering to explain this, they most likely didn't even read the bible themselves.
So... like a Universalist Unitarian church?
Not exactly doing anything that hasn't been done before, but I guess it makes sense.
Also, @Explosions, it's really kind of simple. We (Christians) have the concept of Trinity, which includes Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/God, Jesus, and the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/etc.
The first one's the metaphysical being of God, or the "idea" of God as a supreme, creator deity. The second's an incarnate, physical being of God, like an Avatar (from various Eastern religions) but also God. The third is the spiritual being of God, which acts like a messenger, but is also the aspect that handles miracles, conviction, divine revelation, etc. It's also the hardest to explain, because there's not a lot said about it in the Bible.
So you've got these three separate entities, but they're all the same God. They're just smaller aspects of a bigger deity. Each one controls a separate facet of the Godhead. It follows a Ethereal - Corporeal - Incorporeal structure.
Now, here's the interesting part that separates Islam, Judaism, and Christianity: We all believe in all three of these aspects of God, but not exactly in the same way.
Jews believe in the idea of Christ, but they don't believe in the current physical aspect of Christ. They don't believe an incarnate aspect of the Godhead has arrived yet, so they still follow the rules and rituals that apply to the pre-Messianic age.
Christians believe that we're in a post-Messianic age, where the incarnate aspect has come and gone. They believe that, through the actions of this incarnate Christ, we are able to sidestep the Jewish rules and rituals, and go directly to the Godhead for prayer, salvation, etc. That's the most obvious difference between Christianity and the other two Abrahamic religions. Modern Christianity also stems largely from the teachings of a man named Paul, formerly Saul, of Tarsus. He apparently received divine revelation from Christ, went blind, became unblind, and started the largest revivalist campaign the Church had ever seen. In doing so, he also wrote several books and letters which laid the groundwork for today's interpretation of Christianity.
Muslims believe much the same as Jews, in that they don't really consider the person of Christ to have been an incarnate form of the Godhead. Instead, they consider him a prophet of sorts, and a precursor to their Great Prophet, Mohammed. The main reason behind this (and I'm not 100% sure on this, so forgive me if I'm wrong) is that they believe God is entirely divine, and that man can't be both man and divine, invalidating the concept of an incarnate, flesh-Christ. The other main difference is the rules and rituals of Mohammed, who essentially rewrote a significant portion of their holy text. Basically, he's their version of Paul.
Now, there are other differences as well, like contradictions between the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an. However, those are the main conflicts with respect to the concept of a Godhead, and are essentially what keeps them from being exactly the same religion.
Oh, and they all come from the War/Creator deity of the Canaanite pantheon. So there's that.
EDIT: And everything you said is pretty spot-on, too.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186357]Jesus says in the Bible "I and the Father are one." The people around him try to stone him for claiming to be god, and he doesn't deny this at all. It's extremely clear that he is god himself. Calling him "the Son of God" is just a metaphor describing his human aspect. If you're a Christian and you don't think that Jesus was god, you're doing something incredibly wrong.
In Islam and Judaism, Jesus being god is heresy. In Judaism, the messiah has yet to come and Jesus was just one of the thousands of crackpot prophets in antiquity. It's entirely irreconcilable with Christianity.
In the Quran it says that Jesus will deny that he ever claimed divinity at the end times and that god will vindicate this. Clearly Jesus and god are separate entities in Islam, which is irreconcilable with the Christian god.[/QUOTE]
no shit these religions aren't exactly the same, else they'd be
y'know
the same religion
why can't we all just get along and praise Father Dagon
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186357]Jesus says in the Bible "I and the Father are one." The people around him try to stone him for claiming to be god, and he doesn't deny this at all. It's extremely clear that he is god himself. Calling him "the Son of God" is just a metaphor describing his human aspect. If you're a Christian and you don't think that Jesus was god, you're doing something incredibly wrong.
In Islam and Judaism, Jesus being god is heresy. In Judaism, the messiah has yet to come and Jesus was just one of the thousands of crackpot prophets in antiquity. It's entirely irreconcilable with Christianity.
In the Quran it says that Jesus will deny that he ever claimed divinity at the end times and that god will vindicate this. Clearly Jesus and god are separate entities in Islam, which is irreconcilable with the Christian god.[/QUOTE]
Same god, different interpretations. Christians believe that Jesus was a manifestation of God - Jews and Muslims see him as a prophet. They still believe in virtually the same God, though.
they're a bit late, the lotus temple does the same thing but doesn't even bother to separate everyone
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/LotusDelhi.jpg[/img]
I always thought that if I were to ever build a town or city, I'd have something like this built.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45187174]they're a bit late, the lotus temple does the same thing but doesn't even bother to separate everyone
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/LotusDelhi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
I always thought that was a Baha'i temple... No idea what the Baha'i faith actually is, though.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45186357]
In the Quran it says that Jesus will deny that he ever claimed divinity at the end times and that god will vindicate this. Clearly Jesus and god are separate entities in Islam, which is irreconcilable with the Christian god.[/QUOTE]
Yet at the same time the Quran also states that the other People of the Books' God and the Islamic God are one in the same.
"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, 'We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.'" (29:46)
[QUOTE=woolio1;45187293]I always thought that was a Baha'i temple... No idea what the Baha'i faith actually is, though.[/QUOTE]
The [I]Bahá'í[/I] Faith is monotheistic and focuses mainly on the unity of all mankind in a spiritual manner.
[QUOTE=KingArcher;45187309]Yet at the same time the Quran also states that the other People of the Books' God and the Islamic God are one in the same.
"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, 'We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.'" (29:46)[/QUOTE]
Who cares about what it says? It's demonstrably not the same god.
Jesus is god/part of god/whatever in Christianity.
Jesus is not god in Islam.
How the hell are they the same god?
[editline]22nd June 2014[/editline]
Is Ba'al Hammon also the same as the Christian god, because both were derived from the same Semitic legends?
[QUOTE=Explosions;45187395]Who cares about what it says? It's demonstrably not the same god.
Jesus is god/part of god/whatever in Christianity.
Jesus is not god in Islam.
How the hell are they the same god?
[editline]22nd June 2014[/editline]
Is Ba'al Hammon also the same as the Christian god, because both were derived from the same Semitic legends?[/QUOTE]
I think he's talking about an Allah/Jehovah comparison, not an Allah/Jesus comparison. Make no mistake, Jehovah and Jesus are very different, separate aspects of the same being.
I, personally, believe that Allah and Jehovah are two interpretations of the same God. However, I don't believe they're exactly the same, just that they were both branched off from the same starting point. Same with Ba'al Hammon and YHWH, or YHWH and Jehovah, or even Yahweh and YHWH, or any other names of any other Abrahamic deities which aren't fully representative of the entire nature of the concept. I think part of that is due to the fluidity of our concepts of deity and religion as a whole.
So yeah, they're incompatible, but they're incompatible on a different level than you suggest. While they may be fundamentally the same God, our interpretations of that God are incompatible.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45187395]Who cares about what it says? It's demonstrably not the same god.
Jesus is god/part of god/whatever in Christianity.
Jesus is not god in Islam.
How the hell are they the same god?
[editline]22nd June 2014[/editline]
Is Ba'al Hammon also the same as the Christian god, because both were derived from the same Semitic legends?[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ almighty you're so dense. Jesus to Christians is a manifestation of the same God that all people of Abrahamic religions worship (this includes Islam). The only difference being to Muslims Jesus was just a prophet of God and do not believe him to be the manifestation of God. They also believe that Muhammed was the last and greatest prophet of the SAME GOD.
You'll probably learn all of this when you take your World History class in High School though.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45186276]In Christianity Jesus is God manifested in a human, so in that regard you're right - Jesus "is" God. However, Jesus also talks with God in the bible, so "God" is also an entity in itself.
The God in both Islam, Christianity [I]and[/I] Judaism is the same, though a Muslim would probably be more comfortable with admitting that than a Christian or a Jew. A Muslim would never regard Jesus as the son of God (and they'd probably also claim that Jesus was not talking directly with God), though.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is very basic but don't Muslims seem Jesus as [I]a[/I] prophet but not [I]the[/I] prophet.
[QUOTE=KingArcher;45187309]Yet at the same time the Quran also states that the other People of the Books' God and the Islamic God are one in the same.
"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, 'We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.'" (29:46)[/QUOTE]
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled". (9:29)
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45187906]"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled". (9:29)[/QUOTE]
So what's this saying? Christians and Jews believe in God or "Allah" so this isn't really in reference to them.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45187906]"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled". (9:29)[/QUOTE]
That only applies to unbelievers who don't pay the Jizyah tax in Islamic states in exchange for protection, the ability to not be forced to join in wars and to be able to keep their religion. The tax is no longer in effect anywhere and is completely irrelevant, and was actually pretty progressive for it's time.
[QUOTE=Jsm;45187892]My understanding is very basic but don't Muslims seem Jesus as [I]a[/I] prophet but not [I]the[/I] prophet.[/QUOTE]
This is correct, they believe him to be a prophet of God along with Abraham but believe that Muhammed was the last and the greatest prophet.
Finally we can get Sean Bean to the Temple of the One, so he can use the necklace he got from his dad, Patrick Stewart, to light the dragon fires to stop Terence Stamp's cult from ruining the world.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;45188061]This is correct, they believe him to be a prophet of God along with Abraham but believe that Muhammed was the last and the greatest prophet.[/QUOTE]
They're still obviously not worshiping the same God, God in Christianity is part of a trinity i.e God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In Islam, this is denied.
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (5:116)
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4:171)
The fact the Quran denies Jesus's crucifixion, eliminates any way for this to work.
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (4:157)
[QUOTE=woolio1;45186398]Also, @Explosions, it's really kind of simple. We (Christians) have the concept of Trinity, which includes Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH/God, Jesus, and the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/etc.
The first one's the metaphysical being of God, or the "idea" of God as a supreme, creator deity. The second's an incarnate, physical being of God, like an Avatar (from various Eastern religions) but also God. The third is the spiritual being of God, which acts like a messenger, but is also the aspect that handles miracles, conviction, divine revelation, etc. It's also the hardest to explain, because there's not a lot said about it in the Bible.
So you've got these three separate entities, but they're all the same God. They're just smaller aspects of a bigger deity. Each one controls a separate facet of the Godhead. It follows a Ethereal - Corporeal - Incorporeal structure.[/QUOTE]
This is false, the trinity has always been a mystery within Christendom and always will be, attempts to describe how it works end up in heretical teachings, all of which have already been addressed exhaustively in the early Church. The trinity is not the different aspects of God, it is composed of different person's of the same being, all equally God. How this can possible work, we don't know; but a Christian must understand this nature of God, no matter how counter-intuitive it may seem, or else you cease to worship the Christian God.
Also the idea that Christ was inspired from various Eastern religions is highly debatable.
[QUOTE]Oh, and they all come from the War/Creator deity of the Canaanite pantheon. So there's that.[/QUOTE]
This is again extremely debatable.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God, but argue about aspects of him and how exactly he has interacted with humanity. All three of them trace themselves back to the God of Abraham in the Old Testament.
[QUOTE=matt000024;45188216]Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God, but argue about aspects of him and how exactly he has interacted with humanity. All three of them trace themselves back to the God of Abraham in the Old Testament.[/QUOTE]
You can't worship the same thing when you change the fundamental characteristics of that thing.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;45188212]This is false, the trinity has always been a mystery within Christendom and always will be, attempts to describe how it works end up in heretical teachings, all of which have already been addressed exhaustively in the early Church. The trinity is not the different aspects of God, it is composed of different person's of the same being, all equally God. How this can possible work, we don't know; but a Christian must understand this nature of God, no matter how counter-intuitive it may seem, or else you cease to worship the Christian God.
[/QUOTE]
That is... exactly what I just said. The concept of a concept of an ultimate god being composed of smaller, separate aspects of the same god is nothing new to religion. You can't just say something's entirely false when we're discussing matters that are completely based on our internalizations of 2000-4000 year old religious texts.
Unless you'd like to cite a portion of those religious texts, that is. Personally, I can't recall ever reading anything about the Trinity being a "divine mystery," unless it shows up somewhere in one of Paul's epistles... In which case, it has less of a foundation than my Patrician example.
The concept of the Trinity has always been chiefly philosophical in nature. The entire reason it's a mystery is that it hasn't been fully explained in text. We can gesture about it all we want, as long as we concede that we might be wrong.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188251]You can't worship the same thing when you change the fundamental characteristics of that thing.[/QUOTE]
But you can worship variations of that thing... The current Abrahamic God has been worshipped in some form since before early Mesopotamian civilization. On occasion, it has been incorporated into numerous pantheons, had completely different names, and changed nature and characteristics (including the apex of the post-messianic era).
The biggest defining characteristic of the Abrahamic God is that it is a supreme creator deity. Everything else has been interpreted differently before. Similarly, the concept of a Trinity in regards to the Abrahamic God is fairly new, only dating back about 3000 years or so.
[QUOTE=woolio1;45188293]That is... exactly what I just said. The concept of a concept of an ultimate god being composed of smaller, separate aspects of the same god is nothing new to religion. You can't just say something's entirely false when we're discussing matters that are completely based on our internalizations of 2000-4000 year old religious texts.
Unless you'd like to cite a portion of those religious texts, that is. Personally, I can't recall ever reading anything about the Trinity being a "divine mystery," unless it shows up somewhere in one of Paul's epistles... In which case, it has less of a foundation than my Patrician example.
The concept of the Trinity has always been chiefly philosophical in nature. The entire reason it's a mystery is that it hasn't been fully explained in text. We can gesture about it all we want, as long as we concede that we might be wrong.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
But you can worship variations of that thing... The current Abrahamic God has been worshipped in some form since before early Mesopotamian civilization. On occasion, it has been incorporated into numerous pantheons, had completely different names, and changed nature and characteristics (including the apex of the post-messianic era).
The biggest defining characteristic of the Abrahamic God is that it is a supreme creator deity. Everything else has been interpreted differently before. Similarly, the concept of a Trinity in regards to the Abrahamic God is fairly new, only dating back about 3000 years or so.[/QUOTE]
Worshiping variations is still not worship of the same thing.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188175]They're still obviously not worshiping the same God, God in Christianity is part of a trinity i.e God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In Islam, this is denied.
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (5:116)
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4:171)
[/QUOTE]
That quote is against Polytheism, and if you count Christian Tritheism as three separate gods with their own powers, then yes that would make the gods different. If you count the Tritheism as three different aspects of the same god however, it could still be the same god as Allah.
Honestly it's all relatively confusing and I doubt there's a solid answer to the question
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