Berlin House of One: The first church-mosque-synagogue?
98 replies, posted
[QUOTE=woolio1;45188293]That is... exactly what I just said. The concept of a concept of an ultimate god being composed of smaller, separate aspects of the same god is nothing new to religion. You can't just say something's entirely false when we're discussing matters that are completely based on our internalizations of 2000-4000 year old religious texts.
Unless you'd like to cite a portion of those religious texts, that is. Personally, I can't recall ever reading anything about the Trinity being a "divine mystery," unless it shows up somewhere in one of Paul's epistles... In which case, it has less of a foundation than my Patrician example.
The concept of the Trinity has always been chiefly philosophical in nature. The entire reason it's a mystery is that it hasn't been fully explained in text. We can gesture about it all we want, as long as we concede that we might be wrong.[/QUOTE]
I more made the statement that it is a mystery to dissuade attempts to create analogies for it.
My main point is that the idea of the Trinity being the smaller parts of God that make up a whole is not Christian doctrine. The person's of the trinity are all fully God.
[QUOTE=KingArcher;45188358]That quote is against Polytheism, and if you count Christian Tritheism as three separate gods with their own powers, then yes that would make the gods different. If you count the Tritheism as three different aspects of the same god however, it could still be the same god as Allah.[/QUOTE]
How the fuck is it against polytheism?, Christian tritheism is a misunderstanding of the concept of the trinity and it's definitely not a popular one, so I really don't get your point.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188374]How the fuck is it against polytheism?, Christian tritheism is a misunderstanding of the concept of the trinity and it's definitely not a popular one, so I really don't get your point.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I was pretty wrong there actually
i apologize on behalf of everyone who actually knows christian theology
[QUOTE=KingArcher;45188402]Yeah I was pretty wrong there actually
i apologize on behalf of everyone who actually knows christian theology[/QUOTE]
It's ok, but why are you trying so hard to debate this when you're not sure yourself, what are you trying achieve?
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;45188372]I more made the statement that it is a mystery to dissuade attempts to create analogies for it.
My main point is that the idea of the Trinity being the smaller parts of God that make up a whole is not Christian doctrine. The person's of the trinity are all fully God.[/QUOTE]
To fall back on my Patrician example, since I find Saint Patrick's writings to be both informative and enlightening, the Trinity is like a shamrock. All three leaves are an equal part of the whole, but each leaf is separate from the others. However, all three leaves make up the entire shamrock. In the same way, the beings of God are separate, but all combined make one God.
The Trinity really only makes sense if you consider the cultural state of the Hebrew "race*" about 4000-5000 BCE. They had just split off from the rest of the Prometheic Arabian peoples, many of whom were polytheistic. In fact, what originally set the Hebrew nation apart was a monotheistic belief structure. However, since early Hebrew religion was founded on top of centuries of polytheism, they had to incorporate some elements of polytheism into their belief structure. The result being our concept of Trinity, which is neither monotheistic nor polytheistic, but was widely accepted by the Hebrew peoples.
That's the historical background, anyway. The religious background is written down fairly thoroughly, and the concept of Trinity becomes a topic of more philosophical debate rather than one of mass acceptance.
My personal belief, which I'm sure differs from yours, is that the three persons of God are all one God, both independently and together. My reasoning for this is that all-powerful metaphysical beings can pretty much do whatever they want, since they don't follow our rules or philosophies. If God wants to be three persons at once, then what's stopping him?
*I say "race" in quotes because, at this time, they were an offshoot of the early peoples of the Arabian peninsula. The genetic diversity came after they stopped marrying said early peoples of the Arabian peninsula.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188354]Worshiping variations is still not worship of the same thing.[/QUOTE]
That depends entirely on your basis for what you consider the same thing. It's widely accepted that Zeus and Jupiter were the same deity, but their names and attributes are largely different. I'd imagine it's a similar situation between the different versions of the Abrahamic deity.
[QUOTE=woolio1;45188509]To fall back on my Patrician example, since I find Saint Patrick's writings to be both informative and enlightening, the Trinity is like a shamrock. All three leaves are an equal part of the whole, but each leaf is separate from the others. However, all three leaves make up the entire shamrock. In the same way, the beings of God are separate, but all combined make one God.
The Trinity really only makes sense if you consider the cultural state of the Hebrew "race*" about 4000-5000 BCE. They had just split off from the rest of the Prometheic Arabian peoples, many of whom were polytheistic. In fact, what originally set the Hebrew nation apart was a monotheistic belief structure. However, since early Hebrew religion was founded on top of centuries of polytheism, they had to incorporate some elements of polytheism into their belief structure. The result being our concept of Trinity, which is neither monotheistic nor polytheistic, but was widely accepted by the Hebrew peoples.
That's the historical background, anyway. The religious background is written down fairly thoroughly, and the concept of Trinity becomes a topic of more philosophical debate rather than one of mass acceptance.
My personal belief, which I'm sure differs from yours, is that the three persons of God are all one God, both independently and together. My reasoning for this is that all-powerful metaphysical beings can pretty much do whatever they want, since they don't follow our rules or philosophies. If God wants to be three persons at once, then what's stopping him?
*I say "race" in quotes because, at this time, they were an offshoot of the early peoples of the Arabian peninsula. The genetic diversity came after they stopped marrying said early peoples of the Arabian peninsula.[/QUOTE]
If I recall correctly, are you referring to the Hebrews believing in Baal, Asherah and El-elyon?
Are you sure that they're related to the trinity?
EVERYBODY IS GOD
[QUOTE=woolio1;45188509]That depends entirely on your basis for what you consider the same thing. It's widely accepted that Zeus and Jupiter were the same deity, but their names and attributes are largely different. I'd imagine it's a similar situation between the different versions of the Abrahamic deity.[/QUOTE]
That's not "widely accepted." Jupiter and Zeus have significant differences between them. They very obviously stem from the same myth, but they aren't the same.
[QUOTE=woolio1;45188509]To fall back on my Patrician example, since I find Saint Patrick's writings to be both informative and enlightening, the Trinity is like a shamrock. All three leaves are an equal part of the whole, but each leaf is separate from the others. However, all three leaves make up the entire shamrock. In the same way, the beings of God are separate, but all combined make one God.[/QUOTE]
That is not how I recall St. Patrick's analogy, he used each leaf to represent the distinct persons within the one being of God, that is quite different from the idea that each person is a separate part of God.
[QUOTE]The Trinity really only makes sense if you consider the cultural state of the Hebrew "race*" about 4000-5000 BCE. They had just split off from the rest of the Prometheic Arabian peoples, many of whom were polytheistic. In fact, what originally set the Hebrew nation apart was a monotheistic belief structure. However, since early Hebrew religion was founded on top of centuries of polytheism, they had to incorporate some elements of polytheism into their belief structure. The result being our concept of Trinity, which is neither monotheistic nor polytheistic, but was widely accepted by the Hebrew peoples.[/QUOTE]
Based off of what do you claim that the trinity was a constructed concept for converting pagans to Judaism?
[QUOTE]That's the historical background, anyway. The religious background is written down fairly thoroughly, and the concept of Trinity becomes a topic of more philosophical debate rather than one of mass acceptance.[/QUOTE]
The Trinity is heavily engraved in Christian dogma, though, you can't really disagree with it and consider yourself a Christian in any orthodox sense.
[QUOTE]My personal belief, which I'm sure differs from yours, is that the three persons of God are all one God, both independently and together. My reasoning for this is that all-powerful metaphysical beings can pretty much do whatever they want, since they don't follow our rules or philosophies. If God wants to be three persons at once, then what's stopping him?[/QUOTE]
If you believe the persons of the trinity to be independently God as well as wholly God (AKA that they are all of one being) then perhaps what we believe does not differ so much in that respect. Your previously lead me to believe you subscribed to some sort of partialism where the persons of the trinity are lesser components of a greater being that is God.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;45188761]Why argue about religion when it can be whatever the fuck you want it to be?[/QUOTE]
yeah i agree
fuck historians and anthropologists, studying and arguing about the origins of religions and their vast cultural impact is of no use to anybody
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188354]Worshiping variations is still not worship of the same thing.[/QUOTE]
It is foolish to deny that the modern Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do not worship the deity that Abraham supposedly worshiped, for then they are not Abrahamic religions. It is in this sense that the god of Abraham is the same god, not the different interpretations of him. Someone might look up in the sky and see that a cloud resembles a train. Some other person might see a fish, and one other person might see a tree. The cloud is the same, but the interpretations are different.
just gonna point out to all the hooligans saying that ~IT'S THE SAME GOD~: to them, it is NOT the same god, and people would get pretty pissed off if you told them that
there are many reasons why this is a cool thing, but that is not one of them
[QUOTE=Furioso;45187137]Same god, different interpretations. Christians believe that Jesus was a manifestation of God - Jews and Muslims see him as a prophet. They still believe in virtually the same God, though.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure Jews don't see him as a prophet, just a carpenter who was murderized for his rising power and arguable heresy, actually. Anyway, yeah, the god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the same god; the one that created the heavens and the earth and invented light before he invented a light source, the one who revealed himself to Abraham on the rock when he went to slay his son, the one who burned two cities for having too much sex, only to have the only survivors live on through incest-rape, the one who claimed all credit for an epic headshot done by a lil' dude and all that jazz.
Religion is neat, btw. I know it seems like I'm mocking it in the description above, but I genuinely love religions and biblical tales.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pelican;45189350]just gonna point out to all the hooligans saying that ~IT'S THE SAME GOD~: to them, it is NOT the same god, and people would get pretty pissed off if you told them that
there are many reasons why this is a cool thing, but that is not one of them[/QUOTE]
Christianity is an expansion pack for Judaism, and Islam is a middle-ground between Judaism and Christianity with it's own added lore-books. The first two-thirds of the rulebook are the same for all three; the one that contain the base stats for God and all that jazz.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;45188175]They're still obviously not worshiping the same God, God in Christianity is part of a trinity i.e God exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In Islam, this is denied.[/QUOTE]
The Trinity is denied in some forms of Christianity as well
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189166]It is foolish to deny that the modern Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do not worship the deity that Abraham supposedly worshiped, for then they are not Abrahamic religions. It is in this sense that the god of Abraham is the same god, not the different interpretations of him. Someone might look up in the sky and see that a cloud resembles a train. Some other person might see a fish, and one other person might see a tree. The cloud is the same, but the interpretations are different.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is denying the obvious Old Testament roots of all three religions.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Riller;45189415]Christianity is an expansion pack for Judaism, and Islam is a middle-ground between Judaism and Christianity with it's own added lore-books. The first two-thirds of the rulebook are the same for all three; the one that contain the base stats for God and all that jazz.[/QUOTE]
I know this isn't the most serious of posts, but I feel that a lot of people are getting the whole "same god for all 3" from this type of thinking. Just because the god is the same for "the first two-thirds" doesn't mean it's the same as a whole. The New Testament god of Christianity is very obviously not the same god as the Jewish or Islamic god.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189473]Nobody is denying the obvious Old Testament roots of all three religions.[/QUOTE]
People are arguing that the three religions do not Worship the same god, the god in question being the god of Abraham. They have certainly gone in different directions with their faith but at the end of the day it's still the god of Abraham. It's like how there are multiple different versions and interpretations of Sherlock. We have the classic Sherlocks, we have the modern Sherlocks, and everything in between. In some versions Sherlock is the model gentleman, in some versions he's crass and rude, in some versions he's a playboy. In all versions, he's Sherlock Holmes. In all versions of the Bible, the Torah, and the Qur'an, it's the god of Abraham.
[QUOTE=Joazzz;45187044]why can't we all just get along and praise Father Dagon[/QUOTE]
When the Ark toured Philistia after the defeat of the Israelites in battle, and its subsequent capture by the Philistines, they put it as an offering in Dagon's Temple. When they went in the next morning, Dagon had fallen on his face before the Ark of the Lord.
Thanks for playing.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189724]People are arguing that the three religions do not Worship the same god, the god in question being the god of Abraham. They have certainly gone in different directions with their faith but at the end of the day it's still the god of Abraham.[/QUOTE]
It's not "different directions" when the fundamental nature of these gods differ dramatically.
Seriously, the fucking core tenet of Christianity is that Jesus is god in human form. Yet, this very concept runs completely contrary to the Islamic god, who is a single, indivisible figure who never came to earth in human form.
Are you telling me that god came to earth in human form and also never came to earth in human form? I mean, if you say that the Christian and Islamic gods are one in the same, that's what you have to believe. I'm not fucking talking about the nature of these gods back centuries ago when they actually [b]were[/b] the same deity. I'm talking about right now, in the modern age. I get it, they derive from the same Abrahamic tradition. They've changed and split completely and are now incompatible. It doesn't make sense to say "they're the same god." Just say "they come from the same tradition" or something else that actually makes sense.
Seriously, can one person explain to me how Jesus was god and was not god at the same time?
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
It's like saying "Tom has blue eyes and green eyes."
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189777]It's not "different directions" when the fundamental nature of these gods differ dramatically.
Seriously, the fucking core tenet of Christianity is that Jesus is god in human form. Yet, this very concept runs completely contrary to the Islamic god, who is a single, indivisible figure who never came to earth in human form.
Are you telling me that god came to earth in human form and also never came to earth in human form? I mean, if you say that the Christian and Islamic gods are one in the same, that's what you have to believe. I'm not fucking talking about the nature of these gods back centuries ago when they actually [b]were[/b] the same deity. I'm talking about right now, in the modern age. I get it, they derive from the same Abrahamic tradition. They've changed and split completely and are now incompatible. It doesn't make sense to say "they're the same god." Just say "they come from the same tradition" or something else that actually makes sense.
Seriously, can one person explain to me how Jesus was god and was not god at the same time?
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
It's like saying "Tom has blue eyes and green eyes."[/QUOTE]
Jesus is God, but he's also separate from God; both Muslims and Christians believe in the same God, but muslims don't believe in the part of God that is Jesus.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;45189817]Jesus is God, but he's also separate from God; both Muslims and Christians believe in the same God, but muslims don't believe in the part of God that is Jesus.[/QUOTE]
1. Jesus is god
2. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is god
3. Christians and Muslims somehow believe in the same god
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189777]It's not "different directions" when the fundamental nature of these gods differ dramatically.
Seriously, the fucking core tenet of Christianity is that Jesus is god in human form. Yet, this very concept runs completely contrary to the Islamic god, who is a single, indivisible figure who never came to earth in human form.
Are you telling me that god came to earth in human form and also never came to earth in human form? I mean, if you say that the Christian and Islamic gods are one in the same, that's what you have to believe. I'm not fucking talking about the nature of these gods back centuries ago when they actually [b]were[/b] the same deity. I'm talking about right now, in the modern age. I get it, they derive from the same Abrahamic tradition. They've changed and split completely and are now incompatible. It doesn't make sense to say "they're the same god." Just say "they come from the same tradition" or something else that actually makes sense.
Seriously, can one person explain to me how Jesus was god and was not god at the same time?
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
It's like saying "Tom has blue eyes and green eyes."[/QUOTE]
Well Jesus was never god, we all know that. So I don't know what you want me to say.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189828]Well Jesus was never god, we all know that. So I don't know what you want me to say.[/QUOTE]
This is incredibly frustrating and you're not a Christian if you believe this.
John 10:30. I'm not going to explain this again.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45183317]Kind of bogus, seeing as all three religions badly conflict with each other.[/QUOTE]
Not really. They all draw from similar, if not the same books.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189777]It's not "different directions" when the fundamental nature of these gods differ dramatically.
Seriously, the fucking core tenet of Christianity is that Jesus is god in human form. Yet, this very concept runs completely contrary to the Islamic god, who is a single, indivisible figure who never came to earth in human form.[/QUOTE]
Sigh, this is what happens when people talk about religion without taking a step back to understand it.
The way I understand it is this;
There is the one Most High Aluahym (Mighty One)
His name is YHWH which means "I am that I am" The Letters if taken by there pictogramic meaning read "Hand - Behold - Nail - Behold".
His will is named the Ruach Ha'Kodesh (The Set-Apart Spirit)
He has prophets which interact with and are 'filled with' his will, the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, otherwise known today as the Holy Spirit.
Yahushua Ha' Maschiach (jesus) is a man who fully was embodied by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh during his life, or atleast starting after he was baptized. He differs from all men in that he had never sinned at all, as is written. He is Annointed (A close translation of Maschiach [christ/messiah]) in that he is the perfect example of a servant to YHWH, and in perfect communion with his will, and thereby him.
Another interesting point is that in genesis when it speaks of the origin of man, the words used is "made in our image" not "made in my image" which implies a multiplicity of some sort of concepts. If that multiplicity extends to 'people' then it would imply that some people exist there by a virtue non-relative to time. If a person is given eternal life, and if the universe has only one possible outcome, then the people might as well exist outside of time already. This is a gift seemingly only certainly reserved for perfect servants. Humanity, being imperfect, requires something else to justify its preservation. An uncertain feature that comes only with the acceptance of the gift of an already perfect servant.
So basically, English is a crude language that barely conveys half of what the original text has to offer.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189834]This is incredibly frustrating and you're not a Christian if you believe this.
John 10:30. I'm not going to explain this again.[/QUOTE]
What couple possibly make people "one" more than sharing the exact same will?
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189834]This is incredibly frustrating and you're not a Christian if you believe this.
John 10:30. I'm not going to explain this again.[/QUOTE]
(The joke was atheism.)
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189825]1. Jesus is god
2. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is god
3. Christians and Muslims somehow believe in the same god[/QUOTE]
Well they believe in the same god Abraham worshiped. This is super simple shit, I don't know why you're having problems understanding that they all worship the god of Abraham, who we from this point on will be known as Phil.
Abraham supposedly worshiped Phil, the pope worships Phil, The synagogue down the street from me worships Phil, my Muslim neighbors worship Phil. They all fucking believe in Phil. Some people believe that Phil came down in human form, some don't. That's fine. Some people believe that Phil appointed Muhammad to be his profit, and some don't. It's still fucking Phil no matter how much you try to mumbo-jumbo it up.
It's like fucking fan fiction. Some people in different fan fictions have Luke Skywalker doing totally different things that directly contradict each other's own interpretations. Maybe one Luke Skywalker would beat up another Luke Skywalker if they ever somehow met! It's still fucking Luke Skywalker.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the nonsense of the trinity. The only thing that matters is that the Islamic god has nothing to do with Jesus at all, yet in Christianity Jesus is pivotal. The Christian and Islamic gods disagree with each other on their own nature.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189874](The joke was atheism.)
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
Well they believe in the same god Abraham worshiped. This is super simple shit, I don't know why you're having problems understanding that they all worship the god of Abraham, who we from this point on will be known as Phil.
Abraham supposedly worshiped Phil, the pope worships Phil, The synagogue down the street from me worships Phil, my Muslim neighbors worship Phil. They all fucking believe in Phil. Some people believe that Phil came down in human form, some don't. That's fine. Some people believe that Phil appointed Muhammad to be his profit, and some don't. It's still fucking Phil no matter how much you try to mumbo-jumbo it up.
It's like fucking fan fiction. Some people in different fan fictions have Luke Skywalker doing totally different things that directly contradict each other's own interpretations. It's still fucking Luke Skywalker.[/QUOTE]
Then, like I said before, you have to say "The gods of the ancient Carthaginians are the same as the Christian god!" because they have the same mythical basis. It's a completely useless line of thought.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189878]I'm not going to pretend to understand the nonsense of the trinity. The only thing that matters is that the Islamic god has nothing to do with Jesus at all, yet in Christianity Jesus is pivotal. The Christian and Islamic gods disagree with each other on their own nature.[/QUOTE]
Just because two groups disagree, or atleast seem to disagree on what is the more important parts does not detract from the intention they all have. The greek pantheon is like game of thrones whereas Abrahamaic religions is more like.... Animator vs Animation , but without being labeled villain off the bat.
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189878]
Then, like I said before, you have to say "The gods of the ancient Carthaginians are the same as the Christian god!" because they have the same mythical basis. It's a completely useless line of thought.[/QUOTE]
Then I must also say that the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Roman Catholics do not believe in the same god because they do not follow the same dogma. That the Sunni and the Shia do not believe in the same god, for they have different interpretations of the same text.
"Hi I'm Explosions and I disagree with what everyone before me has agreed on for a thousand years pls believe me guys srsly I learned it from Wikipedia. Pls"
[QUOTE=Explosions;45189777]
Seriously, can one person explain to me how Jesus was god and was not god at the same time?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, funny you mention this. This is a big part of Christianity; Jesus was simultaneously fully god and fully man. He was both fully god and not god and fully man and not man all at the same time.
It's one of those divine mysteries.
So you say that in the context of Islam vs Christianity yet even the Christians would agree with what you said; Jesus was god and not god.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189898]Then I must also say that the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Roman Catholics do not believe in the same god because they do not follow the same dogma. That the Sunni and the Shia do not believe in the same god, for they have different interpretations of the same text.[/QUOTE]
I would say that the Mormons worship a very different god, and I'm not very familiar with the Jehovah's Witnesses but they might fall into that category as well. Catholics and Protestants, for the most part, don't disagree on the nature of god himself. Neither do Sunnis or Shi'ites. The difference of opinion there is on more procedural bullshit such as how the churches are supposed to be run and who was appointed as who's successor.
[editline]23rd June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;45189912]Actually, funny you mention this. This is a big part of Christianity; Jesus was simultaneously fully god and fully man. He was both fully god and not god and fully man and not man all at the same time.
It's one of those divine mysteries.
So you say that in the context of Islam vs Christianity yet even the Christians would agree with what you said; Jesus was god and not god.[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about whether or not he was either god or man, but whether he was god at all. If you agree with that, then you agree that the Christian god and the Islamic god aren't the same entity.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.