• New York State passes budget that includes a $15 minimum wage hike, paid family leave and tax cuts.
    57 replies, posted
just my two cents on this but won't higher wages be better for businesses in the long run, solely off the fact that people could now afford to give money to those businesses? if the current minimum wage isn't even a livable wage, it sounds like all the cash earned working goes straight back into food, shelter, and utilities. That's how my family's living situation was a few months ago, and even with food stamps and the like, we were lucky if we still had some cash for emergency situations. once people can afford to live past paycheck to paycheck, they can go after luxuries like fast food, movies, entertainment, personal electronics- even not so luxury items like quality-of-life items & appliances. at 15$ an hour, I'd easily be able to grab a new working clothes dryer after a saving up for a few months rather than using the 8 year old one i have to run two to three times across 4.5 hours just to fully dry my clothes. all this extra spending i feel would give a huge boost to companies worrying about paying that new wage difference to their employees
[QUOTE=cebceb44;50056262]just my two cents on this but won't higher wages be better for businesses in the long run, solely off the fact that people could now afford to give money to those businesses? if the current minimum wage isn't even a livable wage, it sounds like all the cash earned working goes straight back into food, shelter, and utilities. That's how my family's living situation was a few months ago, and even with food stamps and the like, we were lucky if we still had some cash for emergency situations. once people can afford to live past paycheck to paycheck, they can go after luxuries like fast food, movies, entertainment, personal electronics- even not so luxury items like quality-of-life items & appliances. at 15$ an hour, I'd easily be able to grab a new working clothes dryer after a saving up for a few months rather than using the 8 year old one i have to run two to three times across 4.5 hours just to fully dry my clothes. all this extra spending i feel would give a huge boost to companies worrying about paying that new wage difference to their employees[/QUOTE] Your new clothes dryer would be more expensive and your monthly rent would increase, your food would be more expensive and all your service companies will charge you more. Product and service costs are directly tied to the cost of providing those services. Increased wages will always result in increased expenses. This is a spending problem, our minimum wage workers can't live off of those wages because of profiteering and misspending in other sections of our society that drain everyone of a large percentage of the profits for their work output. Our government spends huge sums of money that do not invest in the people it's taxed from. Not helpful is the millions that are diverted monthly lobbying our "representatives" further corrupting and damaging our government's ability to function efficiently and to the benefit of the people it supposedly serves/represents. Military spending, General health insurance, and higher education expenses are all parts of our society that are crucial to everyone within it, that we all pay for either directly or indirectly and need to be looked over and reformed.
My main question is whether or not businesses will start raising their prices. I doubt they would fire their employees, when they can simply increase sale price.
Like I don't claim to be a politician or an economist but as someone who works in NY these are the two things that genuinely would help me and a fuck ton of people who struggle in NY. 1. Stop State income Tax or make it reasonably proportional to how much you earn. I once got a $40 paycheck and only saw $20 of it after State income tax. That's ridiculous. What if I was struggling and I ONLY earned $20 for two weeks? I'd die because you shits took half of it in income tax. And I always end up owing the State money come tax time anyway. 2. Don't force me to buy insurance and than fine me when I don't have any by tax time. Like, if I can't afford to pay a fuck ton for health insurance on the market place and if my job won't give it to me why do you think I can afford to pay hundreds of dollars in fines? Honestly? And enrollment for Obama-Care ended ages ago. I had insurance when it was open enrollment and now that I don't have it I get fucked. The only thing they offer now is to give you a small allowance for health insurance if you're unemployed to help pay for it but as soon as you find employment you are required to immediately pay it back. Either way you're fucked. This is a federal issue.
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50056685]Like I don't claim to be a politician or an economist but as someone who works in NY these are the two things that genuinely would help me and a fuck ton of people who struggle in NY. 1. Stop State income Tax or make it reasonably proportional to how much you earn. I once got a $40 paycheck and only saw $20 of it after State income tax. That's ridiculous. What if I was struggling and I ONLY earned $20 for two weeks? I'd die because you shits took half of it in income tax. And I always end up owing the State money come tax time anyway. 2. Don't force me to buy insurance and than fine me when I don't have any by tax time. Like, if I can't afford to pay a fuck ton for health insurance on the market place and if my job won't give it to me why do you think I can afford to pay hundreds of dollars in fines? Honestly? And enrollment for Obama-Care ended ages ago. I had insurance when it was open enrollment and now that I don't have it I get fucked. The only thing they offer now is to give you a small allowance for health insurance if you're unemployed to help pay for it but as soon as you find employment you are required to immediately pay it back. Either way you're fucked. This is a federal issue.[/QUOTE] Is the state taking that much from your income? I know the federal income tax takes a good chunk but good lord how much is the state tax? As for point two "you have a moral duty to support your fellow citizens so you have to buy health insurance whether you like it or not."
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50056712]Is the state taking that much from your income? I know the federal income tax takes a good chunk but good lord how much is the state tax?[/QUOTE] Yeah they do. I never notice federal income tax at all. It's usually less than $20 on even my big paychecks AND I always get a good tax return. The State takes significantly more and I always end up owing them. I could raise the amount of deductions coming out of my paychecks but than I'm losing even more. It's kind of a catch 22 but it's more reasonable to me to pay for my state back taxes with my federal tax return than it is for more money to be taken out of my checks weekly/bi-weekly. I'm actually at work now so I'll go bring up my pay stubs and let you know what the numbers are now. It also wouldn't hurt if NY didn't destroy our industry. I think a majority of people In NY work in retail or service and if you've ever worked those jobs you know they're kinda shitty and don't pay all too well unless you're trained or licensed and even than I've seen a ton of places that need licensing that pay peanuts. [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=LtKyle2;50056712] As for point two "you have a moral duty to support your fellow citizens so you have to buy health insurance whether you like it or not."[/QUOTE] And I'm not sure if this is like an ironic post or not but it I cannot afford health insurance than I.. Cannot afford health insurance. I cannot afford to pay $300 a month on shitty health insurance from the market place. It's impossible. The people on welfare get Medicade and those who have careers can afford their own health insurance but there is a big chunk of people who can only find part time work for small wages who cannot afford to buy it.
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50056727]Yeah they do. I never notice federal income tax at all. It's usually less than $20 on even my big paychecks AND I always get a good tax return. The State takes significantly more and I always end up owing them. I could raise the amount of deductions coming out of my paychecks but than I'm losing even more. It's kind of a catch 22 but it's more reasonable to me to pay for my state back taxes with my federal tax return than it is for more money to be taken out of my checks weekly/bi-weekly. I'm actually at work now so I'll go bring up my pay stubs and let you know what the numbers are now. It also wouldn't hurt if NY didn't destroy our industry. I think a majority of people In NY work in retail or service and if you've ever worked those jobs you know they're kinda shitty and don't pay all too well unless you're trained or licensed and even than I've seen a ton of places that need licensing that pay peanuts. [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] [/quote] Holy fuck what did your state government do to wipe out the industry there? [quote] And I'm not sure if this is like an ironic post or not but it I cannot afford health insurance than I.. Cannot afford health insurance. I cannot afford to pay $300 a month on shitty health insurance from the market place. It's impossible. The people on welfare get Medicade and those who have careers can afford their own health insurance but there is a big chunk of people who can only find part time work for small wages who cannot afford to buy it.[/QUOTE] It was more of a joke, that was what I was told by another poster here on fp when I said the same thing you did.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50056782]Holy fuck what did your state government do to wipe out the industry there?[/QUOTE] I don't know specifically and it started to happen before I was born. Locally we used to have an economy where we had over a dozen large factories and now we have three or four and they employ a very small percentage of the community because they're not very big. My Dad worked for a single factory his whole life. Over 50 years and never had another job and the place was always on the brink of shutting down. Place called Genpak they make plates and stuff for fast food and stuff. They were good to him too, never really did him wrong. Nothing negative to say about it. NY taxes the shit out of them. Not to mention the DEC fucks them up the ass with emissions stuff all the time. It's also a self imposed thing. A lot of NY'ers are progressive which isn't bad but anytime anyone wants to build a factory or anything they protest them out of the state. Infact they started construction of a power plant locally and it's what we need. But I drove past the other day and sure enough people were picketing outside for some other assanine reason. The only thing that keeps us alive is retail, the prison system (we have a couple of prisons that employ a decent amount of people) and ironically enough city folk who commute and work in the city but live here. But they brought their own issues with them. NYC is a huge burden on the rest of the State and since they had a disproportionally high population they pass a majority of the legislation. Needless to say laws and economic decisions made by city folk for city folk usually fuck over the rest of the State. And don't get me started on the shitty lifestyle laws like the ones regarding firearms or the retarded "no soda over a certain size" law they tried to pass awhile ago. Honestly making NYC a special district like D.C. Would help the rest of the State out tremendously.
Its almost as IF its being raised to match inflation and that its not an instantaneous thing.
New York state takes like 4.8% of taxable income if you make $50,000 in a year. Less if you make less. There's no way it takes $20 on a $40 paycheck.
[QUOTE=geel9;50056061]First of all, a business that is only viable because it underpays its employees is not a viable business, nor should it be.[/QUOTE] Are you talking economically or morally? If people are voluntarily working at the current minimum wage, then they aren't underpaid. By increasing the minimum wage you are forcing them to be overpaid. [QUOTE]Finally, assuming that product prices will rise in relation to minimum wage increase, [B]prove that the relative increase in cost of living will equal or surpass the relative increase in wages.[/B][/QUOTE] Personally, I'm more worried about low skill people having higher unemployment and decreased mobility. By increasing the minimum wage you are also increasing the minimum level of risk an employer will be willing to take when hiring a workers. For example, take a guy who just got out of prison with no work history. It might possibly be worth it for an employer to sink the cost of training and employing the guy for a low wage, but it will definitely not be worth it if the wage becomes high. To put it simply: An employer will only be willing to hire a person if they're reasonably sure that the person will provide at least as much value as they're paid. The higher wages go, the higher the base level of value an employee must be able to provide. Here's a big, comprehensive, and fairly recent study that back up my claim: [URL]http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724[/URL] It concludes: "We also present evidence of the minimum wage’s effects on low-skilled workers’ economic mobility. We find that binding minimum wage increases significantly reduced the likelihood that low-skilled workers rose to what we characterize as lower middle class earnings. This curtailment of transitions into lower middle class earnings began to emerge roughly one year following initial declines in low wage employment. Reductions in upward mobility thus appear to follow reductions in access to opportunities for accumulating work experience" [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] As people have already said, the minimum wage is not, and shouldn't be, a living wage. The goal is for people to work low wage jobs in order to gain work experience and then move into higher paying jobs once they've gained value as a employer. Yes, you give people more money initially by increasing the minimum wage, but over the long term you're taking away opportunities from the people who need them the most, namely, minorities and young people.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;50054711]Usually when the minimum wage increases, other jobs see increases in their wages in order to stay competitive irrc.[/QUOTE] When the minimum wage in NJ rose, and rose past my at the time wage, I was pulled into the office of my job and told I was getting minimum plus "a small wage to help you keep you invested in the company". How much was this raise? Fucking $0.04. That's right, four cents to keep me "invested" in the company and not go anywhere else to work. So had I already been at that minimum wage level, I wouldn't have gotten much more than a handful of pennies. I guess you can argue that they "add up over time", but it was (like many others) a part time job, with varying hours each week. The worse part was my GM honestly acting like I was making a ton of money now. [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] It's really annoying for people to think there's some great leap in progress or worker's rights when there's a minimum wage increase when employers [I]will find a way[/I] to fix the loss of income. They'll cut working hours or quit hiring. Doesn't matter if in general there "should be" a net increase. Employers don't care about the economy, they don't care about their worker's financial situations. They only care about their business and bottom dollar and a wage increase is an increase in expenses that won't be cutting into theirs.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50055168]I'm still just an apprentice. Licensed plumbers make bank compared to us newbies. If I was licensed I'd fuck off and start my own business.[/QUOTE] you probably do about as much at the moment as most fast food workers do anyways
Nice to see the minimum wage is increasing somewhere. Minimum wage, in my mind, should be enough to live without having to worry about if you're gonna eat or have electricity and water day to day. With that mountain of stress, there's no way someone can manage to improve their standing without losing their goddamn mind. I make above minimum and I still can't live on my own, though. I'm sort of in a dead end because I can't afford better education and work full time. However, considering what college did to me, I might not survive going back to college. I had stumbled upon something that explained you actually get more money off of benefits than working a minimum wage job, can't for the life of me find it again... All and all, when it comes to the economy, I suppose eventually something will reach the breaking point. All I know is that Social Darwinism is a very morbid way to go about things and I question someone's sanity for suggesting it. I would hope we're better than that.
[QUOTE=MR-X;50054740]Good job guys, NY has a high cost of living. Its good to see people get a little boost to help them out.[/QUOTE] I'm not trying to get into a political argument here, but doesn't a raise of minimum wage generally mean a higher cost of living? How does this work out to be beneficial to minimum-wage workers in the long run? Genuinely curious, please explain
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50054671]shit for $15/hr I'll give up my $13/hr plumbing job and go flip burgers for that much.[/QUOTE] Do people like to tell themselves that working in a fast food restaurant is just easy? Because that's what I feel like is the case.
[QUOTE=DeadCow;50057933]I'm not trying to get into a political argument here, but doesn't a raise of minimum wage generally mean a higher cost of living? How does this work out to be beneficial to minimum-wage workers in the long run? Genuinely curious, please explain[/QUOTE] It works well enough in cities because they don't actually tend to produce the products they sell, they mainly sell goods and services at a large mark up because of the tourists they attract are a major source of income. So really when it's only major cities getting huge jumps in minimum wage, it's workable for them. If however, everyone in the country working low wage jobs got a similar bump, everyone would have a lot more expenses to deal with, because now they have to also factor in the additional price jump caused by everyone involved in creating, harvesting, manufacturing, and moving products being significantly more expensive to employ into their expenses. When it's only done in the city, the effects on cost of living aren't nearly as drastic. Unfortunately people are going to see it being done in cities and saying "see! It works!" To try and expand the major hikes in minimum wage state/country wide, and then two years from then they'll all be much worse off. The minimum wage isn't the problem, wages are relative, increasing it is simply moving goal posts a little farther, what we need is lots and lots of reform to increase efficiency and promote domestic well being, our county squanders unbelievable amounts of money, domestically and internationally. Don't get me wrong, I certainly want to see people working minimum wage to be able to support themselves, but this solution is a bandaid applied to a gaping wound, it won't actually work nation wide and the unintended consequences will only make things worse for everyone.
Don't you guys have like a wage price index or something?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50057486]Are you talking economically or morally? If people are voluntarily working at the current minimum wage, then they aren't underpaid. By increasing the minimum wage you are forcing them to be overpaid. Personally, I'm more worried about low skill people having higher unemployment and decreased mobility. By increasing the minimum wage you are also increasing the minimum level of risk an employer will be willing to take when hiring a workers. For example, take a guy who just got out of prison with no work history. It might possibly be worth it for an employer to sink the cost of training and employing the guy for a low wage, but it will definitely not be worth it if the wage becomes high. To put it simply: An employer will only be willing to hire a person if they're reasonably sure that the person will provide at least as much value as they're paid. The higher wages go, the higher the base level of value an employee must be able to provide. Here's a big, comprehensive, and fairly recent study that back up my claim: [URL]http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724[/URL] It concludes: "We also present evidence of the minimum wage’s effects on low-skilled workers’ economic mobility. We find that binding minimum wage increases significantly reduced the likelihood that low-skilled workers rose to what we characterize as lower middle class earnings. This curtailment of transitions into lower middle class earnings began to emerge roughly one year following initial declines in low wage employment. Reductions in upward mobility thus appear to follow reductions in access to opportunities for accumulating work experience" [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] As people have already said, the minimum wage is not, and shouldn't be, a living wage. The goal is for people to work low wage jobs in order to gain work experience and then move into higher paying jobs once they've gained value as a employer. Yes, you give people more money initially by increasing the minimum wage, but over the long term you're taking away opportunities from the people who need them the most, namely, minorities and young people.[/QUOTE] Minimum wages that don't cover basic living costs force people to work horrendous hours just to make ends meet, crushing their chances of social mobility as they will have no opportunity to pursue education or training while working 50-60 hours a week just to make rent and pay the bills. Minimum wage jobs are hard menial work for peanuts and offer very limited prospects for advancement, since "skills" learned as for example a cashier, shelf-stacker or burger-flipper don't translate into anything other than similar minimum wage jobs. If you are working a minimum wage job and display intelligence and reliability, you'll be "rewarded" with a great deal of extra work and responsibility in exchange for a miserly increase in hourly rate. Which might just barely bring you up to earning a living wage for "only" working full time, but the extra responsibilities and commitment required to the job will still limit you from seeking education or training. The increasing gap between working class wages and living costs is why upwards social mobility in the US has become progressively getting more difficult since the 60s, and that mobility is only going to get worse unless the minimum wage becomes a living wage.
When did low minimum wages become acceptable again? Simply trying to keep wages adjusted for inflation gets met with serious opposition.
[QUOTE=Sableye;50055761]not exactly, but the idea is. a universal basic income would mean you don't [I]have[/I] to work to live, meaning you work for wanting. a minimum wage is supposed to be a wage that you can sustain yourself on but its not pegged to anything automatically which means it requires these arduous fights to even get it to raise with inflation[/QUOTE] In Belgium, minimum wage rises equal with inflation afaik. So, 2% inflation/year = 2% min. wage increase/year
[QUOTE=A B.A. Survivor;50058194]Do people like to tell themselves that working in a fast food restaurant is just easy? Because that's what I feel like is the case.[/QUOTE] I've worked in fast food for 7 years. No, its not easy. But worth $15/h? No, not that either.
[QUOTE=.Lain;50057768]you probably do about as much at the moment as most fast food workers do anyways[/QUOTE] Ahaha Keep telling yourself that.
and here I am working for €2 per hour crazy
[QUOTE=Timof2009;50056644]My main question is whether or not businesses will start raising their prices. I doubt they would fire their employees, when they can simply increase sale price.[/QUOTE] Raising prices requires a more concerted effort because raising prices in one store means lots of people will just go to another. You see this a whole lot on state lines where one state has no sales tax - consumers will travel across the state line for many miles just to save 8%. Since labor costs are about 40% of your burger's price, doubling the minimum wage would basically mean around a 28% increase in prices. So basically any store near the state border would lose a ton of business. Since these are franchises, those franchisees would be mighty pissed.
[QUOTE=dark-vivec;50059264]When did low minimum wages become acceptable again? Simply trying to keep wages adjusted for inflation gets met with serious opposition.[/QUOTE] In what way is a 66% wage increase "adjusting for inflation"? Almost no one is opposed to controlled inflation adjustment, what they're doing is much, much more than that.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;50060506]In what way is a 66% wage increase "adjusting for inflation"? Almost no one is opposed to controlled inflation adjustment, what they're doing is much, much more than that.[/QUOTE] If you actually look up the law you'll find that the wage increase is stepped annually for three different areas (excluding fast food workers): NYC, surrounding counties (Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester), and the rest of NYS. NYS as a whole only gets up to $12.50 by 2021, while NYC gets to $15 by 2019 and the surrounding counties get to $15 by 2022. [IMG]http://snowmew.me/i/160403161500.png[/IMG] The problem here is that the BLS doesn't publish CPI data pre-80s for NYS, and doesn't publish it at all for NYC (from what I could find). But regardless, if you had a minimum wage indexed to CPI starting from 1984, the actual wage increases tracked it pretty well (a little late, but not huge) and then all of a sudden it goes through the roof. Even if you use the entire history of NYS's CPI (averages out to 2.96% inflation per year) to project out and ignore the fact that it slowed down considerably the past few years, it's obvious that these wage hikes are way out of character. I can maybe see the increase for upstate being acceptable, but when you look at the others, it's just insane.
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