“If abortion is about women’s rights, then what were mine?” - Abortion Survivors Testify on Capitol
128 replies, posted
Here's what I have to say on abortion in short.
It's ultimately a woman's choice (if she isn't mentally challenged thus can't make her own decisions).
If doctors find some serious problems the baby will face in life I think you should abort.
Lastly, there's the period before the brain is formed or something like that. Before I have absolutely no problem with abortion. After you need some serious reason like a bad disease or disability.
[QUOTE=Marden;48658764]Here's what I have to say on abortion in short.
It's ultimately a woman's choice (if she isn't mentally challenged thus can't make her own decisions).
If doctors find some serious problems the baby will face in life I think you should abort.
Lastly, there's the period before the brain is formed or something like that. Before I have absolutely no problem with abortion. After you need some serious reason like a bad disease or disability.[/QUOTE]
What exactly is it that makes it ok before the brain is formed and less so afterwards? Just asking cause I'd like to know the reasoning.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;48658777]What exactly is it that makes it ok before the brain is formed and less so afterwards? Just asking cause I'd like to know the reasoning.[/QUOTE]
Until the brain is formed it's essentially a piece of meat. Like a tumor that can be cut out. After the brain is formed it starts to become a separate entity.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48658787]Until the brain is formed it's essentially a piece of meat. Like a tumor that can be cut out. After the brain is formed it starts to become a separate entity.[/QUOTE]
Is there any practical reason then or is it just a moral principle?
[QUOTE=Grandzeit;48658715]Unintended and unwanted babies are more than likely not going to have all the necessities it needs to be raised properly, like a good home and experienced/caring parents.
Human rights or not isn't a big factor for me if they're not going to get a proper chance regardless.[/QUOTE]
Just because someone comes from a bad place doesn't mean they're going to be a bad person. I've gone great distances dudue to situations I couldn't control. Believing somebody has no chance due to their economic situation at birth is ridiculous. Severe and painful medical complications are one thing, but simply their socio-economic status. Nah. I can't get behind that.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;48658808]Is there any practical reason then or is it just a moral principle?[/QUOTE]
Moral and mental reasons. At early stages the mothers are not nearly as attached thus mental damage is a lot less compared to abortion at later stages.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48657882]Ah yes, the classic appeal to emotion, with bonus "scary pictures" tagged on. Sorry, but prior to being fully developed and being able to survive outside the womb on your own, you aren't really a human being.[/QUOTE]
Are we talking survive as in survive independently of another human being biologically or survive in general?
If in general, a newborn child relies entirely on those around it to survive, it will perish if left alone.
If the former, some children are born early or with conditions that require them to be hooked up to machinery otherwise they cannot survive, are they therefore not human since they cannot survive outside the womb on their own?
[QUOTE=Riutet;48659097]Are we talking survive as in survive independently of another human being biologically or survive in general?[/QUOTE]
Homeostasis. A foetus is unable to maintain it's own Homeostasis, it does not have developed lungs, cannot process food until much later in it's development. A baby can maintain Homeostasis, it has lungs that are capable of breathing, can process food.
Since parenthood is more than just being fertile, I find her point moot.
What good is it to a child if their parents don't have the means, ability or will to raise them in a safe and happy environment?
[QUOTE=St33m;48658080]You cant force women to have babies they don't want.
Better the process is decriminalized and regulated, instead of being performed by unlicensed criminals in back alleys.
That's where i am on the issue.[/QUOTE]
No, but you can extract the fetus and then transfer that fetus to another family. However, In certain country's US included they do perform abortion is done at late stages of the child development when the child is fully developed and is essentially just putting on weight and waiting to be born and some of theses abortions have been so late that the mother was soon to be in labor.
[QUOTE=TestECull;48657956]Indeed, and they should still have recourse if those contraceptives fail. Nothing's perfect. You could have a vasectomy, she could have her tubes tied, you could have a rubber on, she could have the pill on, and life will still find a fucking way around it. Tubes reconnect all the time, especially with vasectomies, condoms break, and the pill isn't always reliable either. Saying 'lol just use contraceptives' isn't enough, there needs to be a backup plan.[/QUOTE]
You DO realize that the only real way for sex to not result in a pregnancy 100% of the time is to not have sex at all, right? A lot of people fail to realize this, hence "accidental" pregnancies. People decide "I'm sure as hell gonna have me some sex today", and don't think about the slimmest possibility of the condom breaking, or the pill not working, or the tubes repairing themselves. So considering the effectiveness (or "effectiveness" as you argue) of the majority of currently available methods, what do you think is the back-up plan in this scenario?
That's right, abortion.
Granted, I personally believe that there's a time and a place for abortions, and "aw shucks, preggers again?!" is not one of them.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;48657937]I think even that small cluster of cells is [b]important[/b] human life.[/QUOTE]
No.
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[editline]11th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48659479]Granted, I personally believe that there's a time and a place for abortions, and "aw shucks, preggers again?!" is not one of them.[/QUOTE]
You really want an irresponsible person like that contributing their genetic copy to society?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Do better than this" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48658683]We're talking about the right to life here, the most basic of all rights. If the mother's rights, other than her own right to life, are more important that the fetus's right to life, then you're basically just arguing that the fetus doesn't have a right to life. I'm not sure how you can come to any other conclusion.
In what way does the fetus have rights if the mother can take away those rights on a whim?[/QUOTE]
You're not asking the right questions here. This is not a matter of whether a mother or her child have "more important" rights, but rather [I]when[/I] unborn babies actually inherit those rights. Since all living human beings have basic and inalienable rights, the question to ask when considering the rights of unborn babies is [I]at what point do embryos or fetuses actually become living human beings,[/I] or [I]what factors are necessary for a human being to be considered alive?[/I]
Many argue that a human is not alive unless he or she has a thinking or dreaming mind, capable of some sense of awareness and thought. It's why people who have suffered severe brain damage and entered vegetative states with little or no chance of recovery have their lives legally placed under the hands of kin or guardians who can then choose to let them expire.
By the same token, a lot of people argue that a fetus isn't truly alive until the brain has developed and has active and measurable neural activity. This occurs at about three months after conception (10-12 weeks). Granted, at this point the baby is nothing resembling "conscious," it simply has firing neurons in a brain smaller than a pea. It is over the next three months that the bulk of neural development occurs. It's not until six months into development that a fetus begins having active thoughts (in the form of dreams).
Personally, I would argue that abortions within the first trimester should be allowed at-will for the mother. It is at this point that she must ask herself some hard questions and make a decision that will affect her for the rest of her life. Abortions should be available and safely conducted for [I]any[/I] woman who wishes to have one during this period of the child's development.
Abortions within the second trimester should still be available based on medical or psychological factors. If there is risk of harm to the mother or the child, including developmental problems with the fetus, the mother should have the option to do what is best for herself and her family pending consultation from her doctor.
Moving into the third trimester, severe medical emergencies should be the only reason to terminate the pregnancy.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48659479]and "aw shucks, preggers again?!" is not one of them.[/QUOTE]
Why not? What difference does it make?
imagine not being able to support a child, getting pregnant, failing to have an abortion, and then the kid grows up and yells about it on national television.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48659530]Personally, I would argue that abortions within the first trimester should be allowed at-will for the mother. It is at this point that she must ask herself some hard questions and make a decision that will affect her for the rest of her life. Abortions should be available and safely conducted for [I]any[/I] woman who wishes to have one during this period of the child's development.
Abortions within the second trimester should still be available based on medical or psychological factors. If there is risk of harm to the mother or the child, including developmental problems with the fetus, the mother should have the option to do what is best for herself and her family pending consultation from her doctor.
Moving into the third trimester, severe medical emergencies should be the only reason to terminate the pregnancy.[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't like the idea of abortion, and I think it should be avoided at all costs. But I think it needs to remain an option for those that need/choose it. Though I don't think it should be permitted past a certain point unless it's a medical emergency and the mothers/fetus' life is in danger.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;48658260]You're right, but I think with proper use of a primary and secondary contraceptive, unintended pregnancy can become statistically insignificant. Insignificant enough that we doesn't really need to be a nation conversation or policy.
Obviously make provisions for rape or life endangerment though.
If a pill + condom or whatever else you use both fail, then congratlations! You're proton torpedo directly entered the exhaust port. You are true Jedi Master![/QUOTE]
You are a perfectly rational person, the problem is this is an absolutist issue like gay marriage, you either don't have it at all or you have any part of it and its a loss for one side. The pro-life activists view anything that comes between a sperm and an egg as abortative, condums,pills, even ky jelly, so while Colorado's shocking program of giving access to all those things made unwanted pregnancies drop to almost 0, they see that still as being equal to having full legal abortions.
These people cannot be reasoned with, they do not accept middle ground, and they will not stop pushing against this issue because they see it in absolutes
[editline]11th September 2015[/editline]
I personally believe if a woman wants to get rid of a baby the government is ultimately powerless to prevent it, so punishing someone by limiting their rights for being pregnant, or restricting access to contraception, or outlawing abortions won't stop women from ending pregnancies on their own if they have to, and we don't want them to have to
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;48658378]I would be almost willing to agree with you if the society was able and willing to ensure social and economical security of both the mother and the child. If you happen to be a single mother and end up with an unwanted child you are fucked with a capital F and nobody gives a damn about you needing a carer for the kid, money to feed it and clothe it, and nobody cares your work career has been interrupted by it and you need support to become competitive in the job market again.
For many people ending up with an unwanted child is literately a life ruining event, and until the society can ensure that won't happen anymore (in sake of both the mothers as well as children), star wars references are rather inappropriate.[/QUOTE]
This is what I think too. It sucks to to be on either side of this debate. I think that no one should be able to tell you what to do in the case of abortions. I do however think that abortions should be illegal after a certaint point in the pregnancy. Unless there is danger to the mothers life than fuck all and save the mother no matter the cost. Also as a man what about my rights for a child I wasn't ready for? If both parties used birth control properly and it still happens that's not their fault. And fuck anyone who tries to make decisions for me and my girlfriend it's not your life and there for you have no say. If my girlfriend was like really far into the pregnancy and she and the baby were fine and healthy I'd say keep it and deal with it. But if we both didn't want a kid and we catch it early enough (not sure when the cutoff should be though) I'd say abortion if we weren't financially ready and stuff like that.
[QUOTE=Sungrazer;48659511]No.
<lot of pictures>
[editline]11th September 2015[/editline]
You really want an irresponsible person like that contributing their genetic copy to society?[/QUOTE]
:glare:
[QUOTE=Sungrazer;48659511]
You really want an irresponsible person like that contributing their genetic copy to society?[/QUOTE]
misanthropy isn't cool, yo
[QUOTE=Sungrazer;48659511]No.
-pictures-
You really want an irresponsible person like that contributing their genetic copy to society?[/QUOTE]
i like how you posted all of this "serious stuff" of pollution, ISIS, starving children, 9/11, and then finish up with a picture of justin bieber
this post is either satire or horrendously stupid
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48660430]i like how you posted all of this "serious stuff" of pollution, ISIS, starving children, 9/11, and then finish up with a picture of justin bieber
this post is either satire or horrendously stupid[/QUOTE]
This so much, way to ruin the point you were trying to make.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48660430]i like how you posted all of this "serious stuff" of pollution, ISIS, starving children, 9/11, and then finish up with a picture of justin bieber
this post is either satire or horrendously stupid[/QUOTE]
What Sungrazer wants are more quality people like himself in this world. It's the only way we can transcend from our ISIS-pollution-hunger-fatkid society. And [I]obviously[/I] the solution to all of those problems are abortions.
[QUOTE=Sungrazer;48659511]No.
-fuckton of pics-
[editline]11th September 2015[/editline]
You really want an irresponsible person like that contributing their genetic copy to society?[/QUOTE]
[I]OW, OW! Edge is cutting me, OW![/I] You're not proving a point if all you're gonna do is post pics. Tell you statement, as well as show it. Also wasn't JB's mom a teenager? That could explain things.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48657882]Ah yes, the classic appeal to emotion, with bonus "scary pictures" tagged on. Sorry, but prior to being fully developed and being able to survive outside the womb on your own, you aren't really a human being.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Headhumpy;48658590]The fetus is a parasite for most of its existence and therefore, whatever rights it may have are superseded by the rights of the woman whose body it inhabits.[/QUOTE]You're fucking forgetting the part where she's alive today so clearly she was developed enough for an abortion to be murder. Though by the letter of the law it was okay, which I'm okay with considering that the two ladies are one-in-a-million occurrences each.
Anyway, that's exactly what it is by the way, straight-up murder, once the fetus has developed to [i]that[/i] point it's a person and if the mother doesn't want it tough shit she had a couple months to change her mind. If we're going to be okay with aborting babies [i]whenever we want[/i] as you're implying then we should really rewrite what constitutes manslaughter because a bunch of other shit must be A-OK too.
By the way I think the father should be able to 100% divorce himself from the child if it's entirely the mother's decision if she wants to keep it or not.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48660430]i like how you posted all of this "serious stuff" of pollution, ISIS, starving children, 9/11, and then finish up with a picture of justin bieber
this post is either satire or horrendously stupid[/QUOTE]
You should see some of his other posts.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48662021]You should see some of his other posts.[/QUOTE]Sungrazer really needs to stop relying on the sun and grazing for his nutrition.
[QUOTE=Coyoteze;48658541]Shame it never formed on these people at all.
[editline]11th September 2015[/editline]
Also, relevant picture I found on Facebook a few days ago
[t]http://i.imgur.com/vl7jy7Q.png[/t]
(Pardon the JPEG compression, y'know how people do this shit)[/QUOTE]
Personally I'd choose the fully developed baby because if you drop a fucking embryo it's not going to fucking die lol
Plus if the embryo is already out of the womb might as well consider it aborted
Just another lame attempt by sjw pro-choicers to come up with a dumb analogy that attempts to look "intelligent" in justifying abortion, even late-term.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;48662554]Personally I'd choose the fully developed baby because if you drop a fucking embryo it's not going to fucking die lol
Plus if the embryo is already out of the womb might as well consider it aborted
Just another lame attempt by sjw pro-choicers to come up with a dumb analogy that attempts to look "intelligent" in justifying abortion, even late-term.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with the argument though. It's merely pointing out the flaws of the "life begins at conception" mentality. You aren't even making a point, just stating the obvious and labeling the opposition as "sjw" even though this isn't even a PC / sj topic.
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