Remember that Cleveland kid that got shot for pulling a BB gun on cops? His family is suing.
165 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46668566]Good. He was 12, for fuck's sake. The 911 caller even said he didn't believe the gun was real, but the incompetent dispatcher didn't seem to think that information was worth relaying to the officers.
[B]He was never given a chance to drop it.[/B] The cops got out of the car and he was on the ground bleeding out two seconds later. The kid never even knew what happened. Maybe he was going to throw the gun away. Maybe he was going to hold it in the air and tell the police it wasn't real. I guess we'll never know, because the cops' first, last, and only option for dealing with "armed" black men is lethal force.
But, hey, have fun with the victim-blaming, guys. It's what this place is best at.[/QUOTE]
Got concrete/definitive proof of your statements or are you going all "fuck da police" on us?
[QUOTE=Flameon;46668792]Yes cops live in a stressful world, but they are fucking trigger happy.
Related video that puts this in perspective just so you all can understand how QUICKLY they can resort to lethal force.
[video=youtube;BTGTntifabI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTGTntifabI[/video][/QUOTE]
The cop obviously saw him reaching for a gun in the car and fired at him - he was scared for his life when that black man who was black and threatening started aggressively reaching for the AK-47 glock he had under his seat.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46668972]The cop obviously saw him reaching for a gun in the car and fired at him - he was scared for his life when that black man who was black and threatening started aggressively reaching for the AK-47 glock he had under his seat.[/QUOTE]
1. People conceal firearms in their cars all the time.
2. Any traffic stop it should be common sense to keep your hands in plain sight and shit. For all the cops knows the guy could have been a big time cop killer or something. We live in America, where police getting fucking killed is an occupational hazard. It is more dangerous to be a cop in Detroit than it is to be a soldier in Afghanistan. Think about that for a second and then realize why a lot of cops are quick to act as they do. Not to say that it's the best course of action, in the end someone died and that is not the best outcome, but it's an understandable one.
[QUOTE=draugur;46669027]We live in America[/QUOTE]
That's all you needed to say.
[QUOTE=draugur;46669027]1. People conceal firearms in their cars all the time.
2. Any traffic stop it should be common sense to keep your hands in plain sight and shit. For all the cops knows the guy could have been a big time cop killer or something. We live in America, where police getting fucking killed is an occupational hazard. It is more dangerous to be a cop in Detroit than it is to be a soldier in Afghanistan. Think about that for a second and then realize why a lot of cops are quick to act as they do. Not to say that it's the best course of action, in the end someone died and that is not the best outcome, but it's an understandable one.[/QUOTE]
He told the guy to get his license. He had already gotten out of the vehicle, and went back to grab his license - he was obviously complying. If he was planning to shoot the cop, don't you think he would have done that before hopping out of the car and complying with the police?
I can't honestly believe you're defending a cop who opened fire on somebody because they reached inside their car. I can understand yelling at them to get away from the vehicle and get on the ground, but he fired in seconds without even giving prior warning or allowing the guy to react to his commands. It's totally fucking inexcusable.
Cops kill more people than people kill cops. It's not rational to assume that every traffic stop might be a marauding cop killer. Yes, cops are killed, but no - they're not getting dropped on every corner. It's not understandable to me that a cop will immediately open fire on someone for reaching inside their car - they could take cover behind their vehicle and yell for him to get out of the vehicle and on the ground, but opening fire was absolutely trigger-happiness. The guy had less than a second to react and he was bent over and reaching inside the car - there was no way he could've hopped out and gotten on the ground in that amount of time.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46668972]The cop obviously saw him reaching for a gun in the car and fired at him - he was scared for his life when that black man who was black and threatening started aggressively reaching for the AK-47 glock he had under his seat.[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely delusional.
He was told to find his licence, which would be in his car. So he goes to pick it up.
Why in the fuck would the cop start shooting IMMEDIATELY before the guy can even turn around and show his licence?
[QUOTE=GentlemanLexi;46669119]You're absolutely delusional.
He was told to find his licence, which would be in his car. So he goes to pick it up.
Why in the fuck would the cop start shooting IMMEDIATELY before the guy can even turn around and show his licence?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][B] AK-47 glock he had under his seat[/B][/QUOTE]
I do believe it was just some sarcasm man
I'd say that toy guns either shouldn't be allowed or they should be created so that it cannot be mistaken for a real gun, but as the orange tip on that gun was probably removed, so too would a bright green transparent body likely be spraypainted over with black paint.
[QUOTE=Riutet;46669319]I'd say that toy guns either shouldn't be allowed or they should be created so that it cannot be mistaken for a real gun, but as the orange tip on that gun was probably removed, so too would a bright green transparent body likely be spraypainted over with black paint.[/QUOTE]
Toy guns in the US must have an orange tip to be sold. If the owner removes the tip and gets shot because the gun was mistaken for a real one then it's entirely his fault.
[QUOTE=Megadave;46668415] He shot a fucking 12 year old. Either he has the mind of a psycho and can still continue his job as normal, or he's so emotionally distraught he won't be able to perform his duty efficiently.
I don't give a shit what you fucks say, if he comes out of this not emotionally damaged he has some serious issues.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Megadave;46668520]If I even shot a deer I'd have remorse for it for weeks. Don't see how anyone can go without feeling remorse for killing a 12 year old, no matter how justified. Even if he was about to set off a nuke I'd still have nightmares about it.[/QUOTE]
What are you even doing? Where does it say or has anyone said he doesn't feel remorse? He's a human being not Judge Dredd for fucks sake
I'm going to get flak for this but this whole incident is entirely the fault of parents who bought their kid a potentially dangerous airsoft pistol and left him unsupervised. They aren't "toys" and shouldn't be treated as such. The fact that the orange tip was removed is even more damning.
I feel bad for everyone involved of course, he obviously didn't deserve to die, the parents didn't deserve to bury their child, and some poor cop doesn't deserve to have this hanging over him for the rest of his life but this is what happens when you aren't safe.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;46668377][t]http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2025120!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/toygun27n-8-web.jpg[/t]
Okay, lets think about this.
You're in an incredibly high crime area
You're told that someone has a gun.
You see a person with a gun.
You tell them to drop the gun/put their hands up
They don't listen.
They start waving it around erratically.
I'm pretty sure that you'd get shot to death regardless of race, nice try though.[/QUOTE]
While its incredibly stupid what the kid was doing and he deserved to get arrested/incapacitated in some way and was [I]not[/I] a totally innocent person, you really need to watch the whole video. The cops literally drive up right next to him, jump out the car and immediately shoot to kill within a second of stopping the car.
I would argue that its a pretty extreme reaction, considering there was no reaction time or time to tell the guy to drop his weapon. They immediately shot to kill upon approaching the situation, and everyone I know agrees that it wasn't the right course of action for the guy, and I would agree too. And I'm the kind of guy that thinks the ferguson cop was right to not have been indicted considering the substantial evidence to make his claims valid and the fact that the guy who got killed in that shooting was a provable thug (not saying however there was no racism involved, or that the cop did the right thing, that said).
[QUOTE=KorJax;46669708]While its incredibly stupid what the kid was doing and he deserved to get arrested/incapacitated in some way and was [I]not[/I] a totally innocent person, you really need to watch the whole video. The cops literally drive up right next to him, jump out the car and immediately shoot to kill within a second of stopping the car.
I would argue that its a pretty extreme reaction, considering there was no reaction time or time to tell the guy to drop his weapon. They immediately shot to kill upon approaching the situation, and everyone I know agrees that it wasn't the right course of action for the guy, and I would agree too. And I'm the kind of guy that thinks the ferguson cop was right to not have been indicted considering the substantial evidence to make his claims valid and the fact that the guy who got killed in that shooting was a provable thug (not saying however there was no racism involved, or that the cop did the right thing, that said).[/QUOTE]
The kid was also fucking twelve years old. No twelve-year-old I know would know how to handle being stopped by the police. He knew it was a toy gun, and he knew it wasn't dangerous, so he didn't think about how it might be threatening to the cop. Children don't often think about the consequences of their actions or the thoughts others might be having about them. If I was a kid with a toy gun I wouldn't think to drop it and if a cop ran up to me with a gun pointed out I'd probably just freeze.
I think there needs to be a change when it comes to dealing with kids who may or may not be armed, but what do you change to prevent something like this?
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46669780]I think there needs to be a change when it comes to dealing with kids who may or may not be armed, but what do you change to prevent something like this?[/QUOTE]
You stop giving children firearms for one. Also make the law more strict about having an orange tip, because this is what fucking happens when you go around brandishing a real looking replica weapon in public. The orange tip exists for a reason, removing it is fucking stupid. Oh, and 12 years old is old enough to know these things. I knew when I was 10 that bbguns were both dangerous and that they shouldn't be used in public for various reasons. Then again I also grew up with parents that, despite our many domestic problems, at least knew how to properly educate their child about the things they are being given as "toys". I had to pass a hunter safety course before I could even own my own bbgun, regardless of it was clear and shot plastic bbs or not, it was a firearm, and I needed to know how to properly handle it.
As for the cop side of things, as I've said before, this is America. Our horrible system for mental healthcare and sub-par police training both need a kick in the pants. As our country currently stands, it is fully viable that a 12 year old could be a school/public shooter. There are plenty of situations where a 12 year old could have a mental breakdown from some illness they are suffering, aided by something like maybe bullying or really anything that sets them into a psychopathic rage, they grab their parents' gun and head out to do what they internally justify as a righteous act. That's all it takes.
Would mandating proper storage of firearms help keep that from being a very plausible issue, perhaps. But good luck getting any laws passed that regulate firearms in any way, because again, this is America.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46669780]I think there needs to be a change when it comes to dealing with kids who may or may not be armed, but what do you change to prevent something like this?[/QUOTE]
Better parenting
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46669885]Better parenting[/QUOTE]
He's 12 do you really think he's not going to freeze when shit like this happens?
[QUOTE=Flameon;46668792]Yes cops live in a stressful world, but they are fucking trigger happy.
Related video that puts this in perspective just so you all can understand how QUICKLY they can resort to lethal force.
[video=youtube;BTGTntifabI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTGTntifabI[/video][/QUOTE]
this is obviously some fucking retard who should not have been a cop and was eager to shoot somebody/too anxious to be a cop
this should not represent a majority of the cops
look at all this victim blaming! wow!
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
this happens over and over and over and its always some shitty excuse to justify the racism. clearly if this was a white boy the cop would not have shot him. I simply refuse to believe that he would have sorry
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;46669923]look at all this victim blaming! wow!
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
this happens over and over and over and its always some shitty excuse to justify the racism. clearly if this was a white boy the cop would not have shot him. I simply refuse to believe that he would have sorry[/QUOTE]
Are you serious? Victim blaming? He was carrying an illegal item(toy gun without orange tip). If it was a white boy with realistic toy you bet your ass he'd get shot since kid/teen shooters are not unusual in US, especially white ones.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46669904]He's 12 do you really think he's not going to freeze when shit like this happens?[/QUOTE]
It's pretty reasonable that he froze, but from what I keep hearing is that he started waving the firearm around or something. Again, sub-par police training. Our police don't always know how to react to a specific situation, because a good many of them don't have experience or enough training covering it. Code3 could probably list an entire set of rules and methods for how this could have been handled better, but at the end of the day, a seasoned veteran of the force is always going to know a world more than the recent academy graduate rookie they picked up off the street a year ago.
Could they have continued trying to talk to the kid, yes. But when you see something completely unorthodox like a 12 year old carrying a gun, you react differently. Just like how the kid froze, the officer too froze momentarily, but only just as officers are trained to go on instinct because when they freeze, people die. His reaction was about as complex as: Did not comply with request, has what looks to be deadly firearm, therefore is threat, take down threat as fast as possible to prevent injury to self and others. Was this correct? Maybe not in this case, but that was what his training prepared him for, dangerous encounters with deadly criminals, and that's where his mind instantly went when faced with an alien situation.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46669944]Are you serious? Victim blaming? He was carrying an illegal item(toy gun without orange tip). If it was a white boy with realistic toy you bet your ass he'd get shot since kid/teen shooters are not unusual in US, especially white ones.[/QUOTE]
This is the same country where white men parade around with assault rifles openly to try and promote gun rights, and all of a sudden a black 12 year old brings out a gun and they get immediately shot.
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
People just don't want to admit the extent of racism in the US at the moment and just pretend that these people somehow 'deserve' to die for increasingly minor crimes, when in reality a white person committing the same crime wouldn't be shot. Maybe this happens once. Maybe twice. But over and over this occurs and yet you still believe there isn't an issue of racism?
I'm not gonna say the cops were justified in blasting him, but the kid should never have had a BB gun with the orange tip removed in the first place, especially in an city with such high violent crime rate. The orange tips are there for this exact reason.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;46669923]look at all this victim blaming! wow!
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
this happens over and over and over and its always some shitty excuse to justify the racism. clearly if this was a white boy the cop would not have shot him. I simply refuse to believe that he would have sorry[/QUOTE]
I refuse to believe that you're not a moron then. Because you are. If you understood the environment here in the U.S. then you would understand why this situation happened. Anyone is capable of being a psychopathic shooter, and unlike you guys, our children have easy access to firearms. Why? Because a bunch of gun toting morons don't understand gun safety and will block almost all laws to make our country a better place on that principle alone.
[QUOTE=draugur;46669977]I refuse to believe that you're not a moron then. Because you are. If you understood the environment here in the U.S. then you would understand why this situation happened. Anyone is capable of being a psychopathic shooter, and unlike you guys, our children have easy access to firearms. Why? Because a bunch of gun toting morons don't understand gun safety and will block almost all laws to make our country a better place on that principle alone.[/QUOTE]
Am I a moron for recognising that this isn't a one off occurrence of police brutality and shootings against black Americans specifically?
I think the parents just want compensation for their son dying, and hope to make a change. I dunno if suing is the best, but I guess it's one of the only ways in America to really get your voice heard.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;46669962]This is the same country where white men parade around with assault rifles openly to try and promote gun rights, and all of a sudden a black 12 year old brings out a gun and they get immediately shot.
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
People just don't want to admit the extent of racism in the US at the moment and just pretend that these people somehow 'deserve' to die for increasingly minor crimes, when in reality a white person committing the same crime wouldn't be shot. Maybe this happens once. Maybe twice. But over and over this occurs and yet you still believe there isn't an issue of racism?[/QUOTE]
This didn't happen in the same place where "white men parade around with assault rifles openly." This happened in an impoverished neighbourhood. Take that setting and apply the same conditions, people would be calling the police and swat would be showing up. Not only this, but all those times that "white men paraded around with assault rifles openly." they were doing so at organized protests that the local police force was informed of before hand, and those rifles were not being brandished. This kid was brandishing what looked to be a handgun in an impoverished neighbourhood. They are not the same thing.
This is not to say that open carry is a smart thing, it's fucking stupid as well, but you can't mash the two together like that. They are completely different situations.
[editline]8th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;46669982]Am I a moron for recognising that this isn't a one off occurrence of police brutality and shootings against black Americans specifically?[/QUOTE]
No, you're a moron because you're assuming meaning where there might not be any. You're making conclusions with no facts to back it up. The best analogy for this would be that because a few muslims flew planes into the twin towers that all muslims are therefore terrorists. You are making baseless assumptions off isolated cases.
Does America have a racism problem? Yes. But it takes more than one generation to fix an issue that has been rooted so deeply in global society since the African slave trade first began. (If you want to make this exclusively about black people, we'll use the slave trade, otherwise basically since all of history.)
Don't act like our country of 300 million is somehow supposed to be perfectly able to function without putting a culturally backwards minority member in power somewhere. There are bound to be places where minorities such as racists hold positions of power in a system of 300 million, yeah? Especially in a country where our political and cultural environment for the majority of our existence has been heavily fueled by traditionalist views. Most of these shootings are in places in the south IIRC. The hot-bed for historical Racism in our nation.
This is especially true that they end up in power, speaking outside of the police force now, simply because the people who can afford to be in government are usually older, rich people. Older generations are more racist than the newer ones by far. It takes generations to change a society is my point. And when your society holds 300 million people, it takes a lot of generations to change it.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46669904]He's 12 do you really think he's not going to freeze when shit like this happens?[/QUOTE]
Better parenting could have prevented the entire event.
A 12 year-old should not have a BB gun or firearm. Parents should not be buying children bb guns. Parents should not allow their children to remove the orange tip on toy guns. Parents should not be allowing their children to paint toy/fake/BB guns black. Parents should teach their children that point guns at people is not ok. Parents should not allow their children to bring toy guns/BB guns to a public park. Parents should be teaching their children to listen to what a police officer says, and do what they say immediately.
How the child reacted is one thing, how it could have been prevented is another.
The real kicker is who the lawyer the family hired. I was able to listen to some of the press conference today. The hired the same lawyer that worked for Trayvon Martins family, as well as Michael Browns. So it's not a good record, and the "evil white cop" angle is getting pushed hard.
i like how people are trying to make this is a race issue when it's really not, at all
the cops weren't highfiving and posting 'LOL GOT ME A DARKIE!!" on facebook after they shot the kid
He didn't have the tip on the toy that is a screaming "THIS IS NOT REAL" to officers and even then did not cooperate. It's a tragedy to the family and I doubt the police are happy to know they killed a 12 year old, but in this situation everything the police did was warranted.
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