Remember that Cleveland kid that got shot for pulling a BB gun on cops? His family is suing.
165 replies, posted
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673328]No no no I get that he shot him pretty quickly, my point is that the whole "you didn't see him lift his shirt and waive the gun around" is debatable because the fps of the video shows about 3 or 4 frames of the whole altercation. it only takes a fraction of a second to make a sudden movement, especially when cops are rolling up on what they think is a gun. that's why they say don't make sudden movements around dogs and such either, in tense situations it take 0.1 seconds to do something to provoke a reaction. you can't argue that a clearer, smoother video wouldn't make the whole situation appear differently.[/QUOTE]
so maybe if in these tense situations things can happen so fast it would make more sense for cops not to drive their car straight next to the person with the 'gun' ?
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673328]No no no I get that he shot him pretty quickly, my point is that the whole "you didn't see him lift his shirt and waive the gun around" is debatable because the fps of the video shows about 3 or 4 frames of the whole altercation. it only takes a fraction of a second to make a sudden movement, especially when cops are rolling up on what they think is a gun. that's why they say don't make sudden movements around dogs and such either, in tense situations it take 0.1 seconds to do something to provoke a reaction. you can't argue that a clearer, smoother video wouldn't make the whole situation appear differently.[/QUOTE]
Regardless of that the cops still acted irresponsibly by driving directly next to him. That's just moronic.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;46673329]But apparently you do have to be a rocket scientist to understand that he's fucking 12 years old and probably never understood the severity of never messing with a gun even if it's fake. And that he was probably playing with it in the park because, you know, he's fucking 12 and a boy playing pretend??
If you're telling me that you never played with a fake gun as a kid, even your fingers then you're fucking lying.[/QUOTE]
You know what could have put that knowledge into that 12 year olds brain? Parents. Being 12 is no excuse.
the kid not knowing what he was doing doesn't absolve him of the consequences of having a gun out in public though. both parties could have acted more responsibly but this is not entirely the cops fault
This thread is nauseating. Take the time to watch video of what happened and then backtrack or feel ashamed of yourself or both. Especially you OP, for that disgustingly leading title.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46673355]You know what could have put that knowledge into that 12 year olds brain? Parents. Being 12 is no excuse.[/QUOTE]
Yeah you're right. I'm sure you never once ignored something your parents said. Or thought that something they said was "Stupid" or that what they said "Didn't make sense". Often times we don't understand why our parents made us do, or not do, certain things until we got older.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46673355]You know what could have put that knowledge into that 12 year olds brain? Parents. Being 12 is no excuse.[/QUOTE]
okay and now that we've established that bad parenting caused the 12 year old to behave like he did, what caused the adult police officers to act the way they did?
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=CG-105;46673374]This thread is nauseating. Take the time to watch video of what happened and then backtrack or feel ashamed of yourself or both. Especially you OP, for that disgustingly leading title.[/QUOTE]
the thing i found more disgusting was the 'GG' remark. yes, gg to you grieving parents of a dead 12 year old
[QUOTE=Richoxen;46673377]Yeah you're right. I'm sure you never once ignored something your parents said. Or thought that something they said was "Stupid" or that what they said "Didn't make sense". Often times we don't understand why our parents made us do, or not do, certain things until we got older.[/QUOTE]
Still not good enough excuse. If the 12 year old cant tell the difference between right and wrong with fake/toy/bb guns, then that child needs serious help.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46673355]You know what could have put that knowledge into that 12 year olds brain? Parents. Being 12 is no excuse.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you mean a kid living in an impoverished, crime-rich area had poor parenting? No shit.
Try not to shift all the blame from two cops killing a twelve-year-old onto the parents. Could they have handled their child better? Absolutely. Could the two cops have handled the situation better? Without a doubt. The fact is, the kid didn't have the best parenting, and they shouldn't be killed for not knowing the exact safety procedures for fake gun safety.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673404]Uh, if your kid is the kind to say "man that's dumb, im not going to listen to you mom and dad", then your kid is probably not the kid to let run around with a BB gun.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure it's 100% natural for kids to be disobedient
[QUOTE=Richoxen;46673377]Yeah you're right. I'm sure you never once ignored something your parents said. Or thought that something they said was "Stupid" or that what they said "Didn't make sense". Often times we don't understand why our parents made us do, or not do, certain things until were older.[/QUOTE]
The first thing my parents told me when I got an airsoft gun was never to play with it outside in public or aim it at someone because kids get shot by police for doing that. I'm a white kid growing up in an upper-middle class neighborhood and I understood what they meant, it should be especially clear for a black kid growing up in a crime ridden area who is surrounded by violence like this why he shouldn't have been doing that. I don't know why you think "oh boys will be boys" is an excuse. The cops never knew it was a toy when they rolled up. Real life sucks. You can tell a kid to wear his seatbelt but if he thinks that's "stupid", even if he doesn't understand it, he isn't going to be less dead when he gets ejected out the damn windshield.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673404]
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think "oh man, i have a fake gun and those guys have real guns, I should probably not pull this out".[/QUOTE]
he's 12 years old, he has the mind of a 12 year old
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673404]Uh, if your kid is the kind to say "man that's dumb, im not going to listen to you mom and dad", then your kid is probably not the kid to let run around with a BB gun.
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think "oh man, i have a fake gun and those guys have real guns, I should probably not pull this out".[/QUOTE]
yes i'm sure he had plenty of time to think out a logical response in the 2 maybe 3 seconds it took the police to arrive and kill him
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46673395]Still not good enough excuse. If the 12 year old cant tell the difference between right and wrong with fake/toy/bb guns, then that child needs serious help.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it was really a matter of right and wrong. More of a matter of "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with my BB gun."
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673421]And you know what, there are plenty of 12 year olds who know how to properly handle a BB gun.
Being 12 doesn't automatically excuse you from the consequences of your piss poor actions and decisions.[/QUOTE]
and being an adult cop excuses you even less
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673404]
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think "oh man, i have a fake gun and those guys have real guns, I should probably not pull this out".[/QUOTE]
I don't think he had time to rationalize that thought in his head in the two seconds the cops gave him.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;46673427]I don't think it was really a matter of right and wrong. More of a matter of "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with my BB gun."[/QUOTE]
how were the cops supposed to know that? how many times have you heard of kids killing people on accident because they were playing with real guns? "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with this gun" is what the cops were forced to think because if they were wrong about it being a toy, that's their own lives they are gambling with.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673429]I'm pretty sure he heard the cops showing up. You know they don't just magically appear. There was more than enough time to drop that shit.
He should know that having a gun+the cops showing up=you dying, ESPECIALLY if he lives in a shitty neighborhood.[/QUOTE]
maybe he was pulling it out to drop it then? the cops claim he pulled it out of his pants so what now?
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673436]how were the cops supposed to know that? how many times have you heard of kids killing people on accident because they were playing with real guns? "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with this gun" is what the cops were forced to think because if they were wrong about it being a toy, that's their own lives they are gambling with.[/QUOTE]
maybe the part where the guy who called it in said he thinks it was a toy gun? and maybe the part where even if it's not a toy the way they acted is ridiculously reckless?
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673436]how were the cops supposed to know that? how many times have you heard of kids killing people on accident because they were playing with real guns? "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with this gun" is what the cops were forced to think because if they were wrong about it being a toy, that's their own lives they are gambling with.[/QUOTE]
If that's how you really feel then I don't think you'd disagree when I say they should have taken the time to investigate what was going on instead of going in guns blazing.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673421]And you know what, there are plenty of 12 year olds who know how to properly handle a BB gun.
Being 12 doesn't automatically excuse you from the consequences of your piss poor actions and decisions.[/QUOTE]
Try being 12 and playing with your fake gun when the cops roll up and yell at you. You try to pull the gun out of your waistband to show them it's not real and within a few seconds you're shot. A twelve year old kid isn't going to think that clearly when under that amount of pressure. He didn't point the gun at them in any way - he pulled it out. He wasn't thinking "man ima murc some cops today with my bb gun."
Seriously - I understand that it's not smart to carry a solid black toy gun around, but you have to understand that twelve-year-olds might not react the same way an adult would. If the police officers hadn't pulled up feet from him, none of this would have happened in the first place. They could've kept their distance a little further ([B]knowing that they were responding to a call about a gun[/B]) and then said their commands. Instead they pulled up feet away and opened fire - again, idiotic actions no matter how you try to frame it.
I agree the kid was stupid for doing what he did, but I think it's more important that we look at the actions of the cops who killed him rather than trying to blame the kid who died.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673448]At the end of the day the cops are always going to go home. They aren't going to sit around and have a debate about whether or not the gun was real. Him being 12 doesn't automatically mean that the object he has isn't a real pistol, that shoots real bullets, and does real harm.
I love to see the threads like this. "oh man the cops should have used their magical super perception powers to tell whether or not the gun was real or not". Seriously.[/QUOTE]
Or they could have used their... you know... voices. To ask. With words.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673448]At the end of the day the cops are always going to go home. They aren't going to sit around and have a debate about whether or not the gun was real. Him being 12 doesn't automatically mean that the object he has isn't a real pistol, that shoots real bullets, and does real harm.
I love to see the threads like this. "oh man the cops should have used their magical super perception powers to tell whether or not the gun was real or not". Seriously.[/QUOTE]
so you seriously think driving straight at & as close as possible to someone who is possibly armed makes any sense at all?
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
i love to see threads like this 'fight until death, shoot until empty, common sense is for civvies'
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;46673437]maybe he was pulling it out to drop it then? the cops claim he pulled it out of his pants so what now?
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
maybe the part where the guy who called it in said he thinks it was a toy gun? and maybe the part where even if it's not a toy the way they acted is ridiculously reckless?[/QUOTE]
dispatch never told the officers they thought it was a toy.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;46673447]If that's how you really feel then I don't think you'd disagree when I say they should have taken the time to investigate what was going on instead of going in guns blazing.[/QUOTE]
i absolutely agree, however given their poor approach, they left themselves very limited in their options. though in an area like that, gun threats have to be taken 100% seriously, no matter who is holding it. maybe they were riding up to the kid just to talk to him without leaving their car, saw the gun as they got close, and took immediate action. we don't know.
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673436]how were the cops supposed to know that? how many times have you heard of kids killing people on accident because they were playing with real guns? "I'm 12 and i'm gonna play pretend with this gun" is what the cops were forced to think because if they were wrong about it being a toy, that's their own lives they are gambling with.[/QUOTE]
[I]then why the fuck did they drive up feet away from him instead of keeping their distance[/I]
None of you have even tried to address this point. You just keep saying "if he didn't have the BB gun he wouldn't have been shot." Well, no shit. What about the cops negligent actions that led to him getting shot in the first place? If you're aware that you're responding to a call about a gun, you shouldn't be idiotic enough to pull right up to the only person in the area who could have the gun. You should keep your distance and call the kid down, not drive up right next to him.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46673467][I]then why the fuck did they drive up feet away from him instead of keeping their distance[/I]
None of you have even tried to address this point. You just keep saying "if he didn't have the BB gun he wouldn't have been shot." Well, no shit. What about the cops negligent actions that led to him getting shot in the first place? If you're aware that you're responding to a call about a gun, you shouldn't be idiotic enough to pull right up to the only person in the area who could have the gun. You should keep your distance and call the kid down, not drive up right next to him.[/QUOTE]
above you
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673466]dispatch never told the officers they thought it was a toy.
i absolutely agree, however given their poor approach, they left themselves very limited in their options. though in an area like that, gun threats have to be taken 100% seriously, no matter who is holding it. maybe they were riding up to the kid just to talk to him without leaving their cars, saw the gun as they got close, and took immediate action. we don't know.[/QUOTE]
hmm so what you're telling me is that dispatch fucked up, then the police officers fucked up by acting extremely reckless and the end result is: bad parenting caused this 12 year olds death?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;46673456]so you seriously think driving straight at & as close as possible to someone who is possibly armed makes any sense at all?
[editline]9th December 2014[/editline]
i love to see threads like this 'fight until death, shoot until empty, common sense is for civvies'[/QUOTE]
Probably because I'm not going to gamble my life on whether that weapon is real or fake. The fact that a kiwi can put his $0.02 into a thread about american law enforcement carries 0 weight
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;46673466]dispatch never told the officers they thought it was a toy.
i absolutely agree, however given their poor approach, they left themselves very limited in their options. though in an area like that, gun threats have to be taken 100% seriously, no matter who is holding it. maybe they were riding up to the kid just to talk to him without leaving their car, saw the gun as they got close, and took immediate action. we don't know.[/QUOTE]
The cops made a really dumb decision. An innocent person died. Is it outlandish to think that the offices might get in at least a little trouble and the family be compensated for losing their son?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46673470]Under the stress of a potential firefight you're not going to be super accurate. Pulling close means that not only are they going to be more accurate, but you also have a nice bulletproof car between you and the weapon that's going to fuck you. If your close with the care not only do you have a shield, but you're close enough to use the shield and accurately fire your weapon.[/QUOTE]
does this seriously make sense to you? you typed this then read this and it makes sense?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;46673477]hmm so what you're telling me is that dispatch fucked up, then the police officers fucked up by acting extremely reckless and the end result is: bad parenting caused this 12 year olds death?[/QUOTE]
could you take anything more out of context if you tried? i'm not even going to dignify this, cmon man.
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