How do you fight possible false rape reports? Get your MRA buddies and spam actual false rape report
291 replies, posted
it really doesn't matter how the patriarchy came around, sure i agree it probably was due to what you guys say about reproduction and all that kinda shit, but it's irrelevant, all that shit is irrelevant now we're not hunter gatherers we're not romans, we're all human beings now and everyone deserves to be treated the same, and as long as we're still stuck in that male patriarchy mindset, which is often a subconscious thing, noone is saying that men actively are trying to continue it, it's an unconscious perpetuation, but yeah as long as we're still thinking like that we're not going to have equality
[editline]23rd December 2013[/editline]
just stop taking this as people putting all the blame on men and we all hate men and men are the problem once they're gone everythings fine. i'm a male, nodachi is a male. i'm fairly certain we don't hate men
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43271095]your main issue is a non issue. literally noone thinks it's some conspiracy thing, and blame has nothing to do with it[/QUOTE]
That's not the message I've been getting. The idea that the gender roles are enforced by a Patriarchy implies that they were created by men for the opression of women, no?
All I've been seeing and hearing is "men opress women". I admit, I don't involve myself in this stuff on a regular basis and therefore tend to get exposed to the more radical ends of the spectrum, but that's the message that's reaching me and I'm far from unique in that respect.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271102]so gender roles are a biotruth?
even though you agree they shouldn't exist in todays society[/QUOTE]
They're not a biotruth at all, there's no biological reason for women to be expected to cook and clean and for men to be stoic and muscular. They're simply something that sprang up during the course of history, and was then taken to progressively more absurd levels by those that could influence things.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43271123]it really doesn't matter how the patriarchy came around, sure i agree it probably was due to what you guys say about reproduction and all that kinda shit, but it's irrelevant, all that shit is irrelevant now we're not hunter gatherers we're not romans, we're all human beings now and everyone deserves to be treated the same, and as long as we're still stuck in that male patriarchy mindset, which is often a subconscious thing, noone is saying that men actively are trying to continue it, it's an unconscious perpetuation, but yeah as long as we're still thinking like that we're not going to have equality[/QUOTE]
I agree completely with everything you've just said. Now explain this to other people on this site who claim to be feminists.
Just remember to emphasize that the entire society has to change, so that it doesnt tell other people how to live their lives, not just men.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43271123]just stop taking this as people putting all the blame on men and we all hate men and men are the problem once they're gone everythings fine. i'm a male, nodachi is a male. i'm fairly certain we don't hate men[/QUOTE]
There's plenty of people on this site claiming that every single gender role stems from discrimination towards women [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1335732&p=43271029&viewfull=1#post43271029"](or that men flat out invented and forced gender roles)[/URL] and you just have to change men to fix everything.
I think you misread the very important word 'mostly' on purpose Silly Sil.
Either that or you have the reading comprehension of a primary school student.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271186]I think you misread the very important word 'mostly' on purpose Silly Sil.
Either that or you have the reading comprehension of a primary school student.[/QUOTE]
What? Maybe max would like to elaborate since he seems to agree.
If you're raising the next generation of people you're definitely not powerless.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43270898]
You want to know what male-privilege got men for the majority of history? Hard, usually dangerous work, and shoved into a battle-field with his only option to kill or be killed. Where as women typically got to sit safe at home. This wasn't a system designed to oppress women, it was a system designed to keep them safe when dangers were very common-place.
[/QUOTE]
Being a sheltered womb isn't a privileged position any more than being a battery hen.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;43271961]Being a sheltered womb isn't a privileged position any more than being a battery hen.[/QUOTE]
Not being killed is not a privilege?
I was literally just posting this when Starpluck banned me, so
10,000,000 men died in World War 1. In Britain, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather#World_War_I]women, including Feminists like the Pankhursts, would hand out white feathers (symbols of cowardice) to men not in uniform, to encourage them to go off and fight and die for a stupid war.[/url] Because women have no power?
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Using an alt to evade a ban" - Megafan))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=lazyguy;43272004]Not being killed is not a privilege?[/QUOTE]
Dying of childbirth and having a massively circumscribed life is a privilege?
Lets go back to the auctioning then.
Does it really have to be this binary? "There are gender roles for both men and women, men have it better than women, hence all gender roles are discriminatory towards women and it's the men's fault and they have to change".
Why is it so unacceptable to think that it's a societal problem perpetuated by society and society as a whole has to change to fix it?
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43271131]there's no biological reason for men to be stoic and muscular[/QUOTE]What about testosterone?
[QUOTE=roxahris;43272465]What about testosterone?[/QUOTE]
I know what you're saying, but that's simply a predisposition to gaining muscle, not something that dictates that men [I]should[/I] be muscular and stoic.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43272355]Lets go back to the auctioning then.
Does it really have to be this binary? "There are gender roles for both men and women, men have it better than women, hence all gender roles are discriminatory towards women and it's the men's fault and they have to change".[/QUOTE]
do you have some kind of condition where you have to make a strawman in every post?
[quote]Why is it so unacceptable to think that it's a societal problem perpetuated by society and society as a whole has to change to fix it?[/quote]
it's not? because i agree with you. but getting rid of male privilege is one of the things we're gonna have to do to fix it.
let me ask you a question. do you know what privilege is? and if you do, do you agree that in a male-centric society men have certain privileges over women on the basis of their gender?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43272887]do you have some kind of condition where you have to make a strawman in every post?[/QUOTE]
I keep quoting you on where you say shit like that and few posts later you come back and say it's all strawmen.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43272887]it's not? because i agree with you. but getting rid of male privilege is one of the things we're gonna have to do to fix it.[/QUOTE]
Men being the authority figures is one of the gender roles. Not the source of all problems or whatever you people think it is. And I never said that this gender role doesn't have to go.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43272887]let me ask you a question. do you know what privilege is? and if you do, do you agree that in a male-centric society men have certain privileges over women on the basis of their gender?[/QUOTE]
Men have it better than women in the overall. Doesn't change the fact that gender roles work both ways and that both men and women perpetuate them.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43273100]I keep quoting you on where you say shit like that and few posts later you come back and say it's all strawmen.[/quote]
Quote where i said all gender roles are discriminatory against women and its all mens fault (no, patriarchy isnt the "fault" of any man today. That was before our time).
[Quote]Men being the authority figures is one of the gender roles. Not the source of all problems or whatever you people think it is. And I never said that this gender role doesn't have to go.[/quote]
Quote where i said its the source of all problems
Ok so if getting rid of men in authority is something you agree with then thats agreeing with getting rid of male privilege.
[Quote]Men have it better than women in the overall. Doesn't change the fact that gender roles work both ways and that both men and women perpetuate them.[/QUOTE]
So why are you so averse to making it so men [i]dont[/i] have those advantages over women?
[editline]22nd December 2013[/editline]
All i am saying is men have some advantages over women and part of establishing gender equality is to get rid of them. What is so objectionable about that?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]Quote where i said all gender roles are discriminatory against women [/QUOTE]
When someone gave you an example of a negative gender role for men you added logic to it, making that gender role actually discriminatory towards women.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43269728]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43269692]It also comes from the belief of men being expendable.[/QUOTE]
Because of the belief that women are weak and need protection and need to raise the kids.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]and its all mens fault (no, patriarchy isnt the "fault" of any man today. That was before our time). [/QUOTE]
According to you men created the patriarchy back then (you just said that, unless I'm reading that wrong) and you are saying that it's men who uphold the patriarchy today.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379][patriarchy] is simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]Quote where i said its the source of all problems[/QUOTE]
Here:
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]patriarchy is male power. the unique characteristics of each gender role are a direct result of that male power. [/QUOTE]
Any more stawmen I'm making?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]Ok so if getting rid of men in authority is something you agree with then thats agreeing with getting rid of male privilege.[/QUOTE]
I've never said that the gender role of men being the authority should stay?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]So why are you so averse to making it so men [I]dont[/I] have those advantages over women?[/QUOTE]
Where did I say that? What are you talking about Mr. strawman!-quote-where-I-said-it?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43273423]All i am saying is men have some advantages over women and part of establishing gender equality is to get rid of them. What is so objectionable about that?[/QUOTE]
The objectionable thing comes when you are trying to make it look like all gender roles are discriminatory towards women and that it's all men's fault. You are making it look like to achieve gender equality you have to change men and take something away from them. While it's the society that has to change and stop upholding gender roles. Men and women should be working together. It shouldn't be women fighting against men's advantage over them.
The image of feminism, and by extension fight for equal rights is terrible and you people contribute to it. Instead of the message being "there are no things that men should or shouldn't do neither there are things that women should and shouldn't do", it's "we need to take the privilege from the oppressive men who invented it and now want to maintain it".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43273100]Men have it better than women in the overall.[/QUOTE]You know, I hear lots of people in these arguments saying this, or the opposite of this, but they never clarify what they say, or even provide examples. Do you refer to the places of employed men in organizations compared to those of women? Or the legal rights of men and women? Male-oriented products being cheaper than those aimed at women? Or the existance of male-oriented products at all? What do you define as the overall? What are the kinds of things that factor into your judging of "overall"?
Furthermore;[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43272887]do you agree that in a male-centric society men have certain privileges over women on the basis of their gender?[/QUOTE]Why is your example a male-centric society, and why does it imply women have no privileges?
[QUOTE=roxahris;43273847]You know, I hear lots of people in these arguments saying this, or the opposite of this, but they never clarify what they say, or even provide examples. Do you refer to the places of employed men in organizations compared to those of women? Or the legal rights of men and women? Male-oriented products being cheaper than those aimed at women? Or the existance of male-oriented products at all? What do you define as the overall? What are the kinds of things that factor into your judging of "overall"?[/QUOTE]
It's the woman's job to take care of the house and children. Women shouldn't do physical jobs. Women shouldn't have many sexual partners. Women should obey men in a relationship. Men are better employees so we pay them more. It's okay to use women as decoration (women in bikini). Very often female sexappeal is used in commercials, again half naked women. Most movies have male protagonist. The list is much longer.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43273823]stuff[/QUOTE]
can we just agree to disagree because i'm pretty tired of this thread. i mean we agree on a fundamental level that men are in positions of authority and society should work to abolish gender roles, but we disagree on certain specifics. sorry if i was hostile and/or unclear.
[QUOTE=roxahris;43272465]What about testosterone?[/QUOTE]
The ancient Greeks thought crying was manly.
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