• How do you fight possible false rape reports? Get your MRA buddies and spam actual false rape report
    291 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43243651]That's a laugh. Since people love dictionary definitions, here's something not so sensationalist that I'm basic it off. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism[/url] Is the only defence you have against me accusations that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm being pretty specific about what I object to, surely if it's that flawed you can point it out rather than repeating the same excuse. Lets just say that from the basic concept of privilege to the higher application of it, a lot gets lost. How people use the concept is also diverse and people use it in different ways. The result is that while you can come up with your own idea of it, one that's incredibly watered down, it is also poisoned by a lot of bullshit and as I've said before, poisoning the label hurts your public perception a lot. So basic courtesy, empathy for others, and consideration. But you NEED feminism to tell you that, and you NEED the concept of privilege because otherwise how would you understand. Do you see why I think its unnecessary?[/QUOTE] i have been pointing it out, you're letting extremists in a movement (which every single movement in the world has) sour the entire thing, which is stupid. people who think all feminism is castrate-men hate men blah blah are people that refuse to educate themselves on the topic and refuse to let themselves be educated on the topic, i see no reason to disassociate myself with a movement i agree with because of people like that. and again, the concept of privilege IS needed for empathy [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] well, not NEEDED exactly but it's very key or useful or whatever
[QUOTE=wraithcat;43243666]I consider equality important and would say that most MRAs are deluded more often than not. But saying that there are things in the system which are inherently problematic to males is not a delusion in my book. I'd say that saying that they merely spout rhetorical bullshit, or a bad view of social issues is just as idiotic as some of the rhetorics you mention.[/QUOTE] are there any problems specific to men that cannot be explained through patriarchal gender roles?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43243616]and not only that, it's about making people empathize, like, you have so many white middle class people saying that blacks in the ghetto are lazy and that's why they're on benefits or commit crimes and shit like that because they just can't empathize with the fact that their privileged view of society and life is completely different from an unprivileged persons[/QUOTE] Uh huh, the issue I have with that is how impractical it is. I worked with poor people here for a year, I know what they're like, does that mean I've overcome my privilege or checked it and what are the consequences of that? Am I allowed to come up with some kind of practical solution or does the idea of privilege just care about silencing people who think they know shit? It's an abstract concept that has little to no meaning, usually only takes into account broad categories like race or gender, and can be explained far better in the simple phrase "You don't know shit". If all its meant to do is teach empathy, there are so many better ways than crying privilege all the time. [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43243665]would you mind highlighting specifically what you find objectionable in that article?[/QUOTE] What, point out every point on which I disagree with the broad definition of radical feminism? We'd be here all day. Only point I'm trying to prove is I'm not pulling the idea of radical feminism from my ass or from headlines, I know whats up. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;43243727]i have been pointing it out, you're letting extremists in a movement (which every single movement in the world has) sour the entire thing, which is stupid. people who think all feminism is castrate-men hate men blah blah are people that refuse to educate themselves on the topic and refuse to let themselves be educated on the topic, i see no reason to disassociate myself with a movement i agree with because of people like that. and again, the concept of privilege IS needed for empathy [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] well, not NEEDED exactly but it's very key or useful or whatever[/QUOTE] What did I say in my first response to you? It doesn't matter if that's all it is, it poisons the label for everyone and ruins public perception. There's not a damn thing you can do about that because if there were, you can guarantee muslims would've done it so they aren't all treated as terrorists. It's not needed or useful, its a label that you think makes things easier, but in reality just confuses people with all this periphery bullshit and obscures any possible message you might've had. People can fight for equal rights without being part of some special group and you'd do a lot better by discarding all this bullshit.
yeah see, you're continuing to not understand the concept of privilege. it doesn't have little to no meaning, you just say that because you don't give a shit about the meaning. it's not about crying privilege ughhh whatever man
Letting extremists ruin an overall positive message is entirely your own fault and instead of trying to shift the blame you could try gaining some critical thinking skills, growing up and getting over it. "Public perception" is misled and abused by profit-and-rating seeking media so if anyone's to blame for poor perception and understanding it's them. [editline]19th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43243816]What, point out every point on which I disagree with the broad definition of radical feminism? We'd be here all day. Only point I'm trying to prove is I'm not pulling the idea of radical feminism from my ass or from headlines, I know whats up.[/QUOTE] So you don't agree with the concept that women are disadvantaged by patriarchal gender roles and such a system should be reformed to establish equality between the sexes? And yes, I'm asking you to point out specifics. It's called defending your point of view. Don't bother bringing it up if you're just going to dismiss further inquiry with bullshit dodging.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43243498]If you think "radical feminism" is giving the label a bad name then that just proves you've completely bought into the media sensationalism trying to stir up shit with dishonest and skewed news coverage.[/QUOTE] Is [url=http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Rogue%20Theories/Greer/Exorcism%20of%20the%20mother.html]Germaine[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beautiful_Boy]Greer[/url] just a fringe extremist then?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43243651]So basic courtesy, empathy for others, and consideration. But you NEED feminism to tell you that, and you NEED the concept of privilege because otherwise how would you understand. Do you see why I think its unnecessary?[/QUOTE] you don't need feminism specifically to teach you these things, but a good thing to keep in mind is that feminism is just a different kind of egalitarianism. so maybe you didn't learn these things from feminism specifically, but if you actually took them to heart then you would definitely agree with its goals. because like i said earlier in the thread: feminism is pretty much just directed egalitarianism, which is itself deeply tied to the concept of privilege, and thus, human decency. [editline]20th December[/editline] what i'm saying is, if you actually, genuinely believe in basic human decency, then you can't not be a feminist; it's inextricably linked to egalitarianism, which is itself linked to humanism (i.e. human decency)
[QUOTE=lazyguy;43243981]Is [url=http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Rogue%20Theories/Greer/Exorcism%20of%20the%20mother.html]Germaine[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beautiful_Boy]Greer[/url] just a fringe extremist then?[/QUOTE] what's your angle
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43243890]yeah see, you're continuing to not understand the concept of privilege. it doesn't have little to no meaning, you just say that because you don't give a shit about the meaning. it's not about crying privilege ughhh whatever man[/QUOTE] I said it a few times already, the idea of privilege ain't flawed in itself, but the practical application comes out almost meaningless and is an unnecessary buzzword when trying to understand people who are worse off is such a basic concept. [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43243916]Letting extremists ruin an overall positive message is entirely your own fault and instead of trying to shift the blame you could try gaining some critical thinking skills, growing up and getting over it. "Public perception" is misled and abused by profit-and-rating seeking media so if anyone's to blame for poor perception and understanding it's them.[/quote] You ain't listenin. To take someone else's metaphor, if you were making an argument to someone, it was well structured and considered, and then a man literally covered in shit comes along and says "I agree with this guy", it's going to fuck everything up for you. This isn't about what you think should happen, it's just human nature, and when the solution is as simple as not adopting the pointless label of feminist, why fight against reality so hard? [quote]So you don't agree with the concept that women are disadvantaged by patriarchal gender roles and such a system should be reformed to establish equality between the sexes? And yes, I'm asking you to point out specifics. It's called defending your point of view. Don't bother bringing it up if you're just going to dismiss further inquiry with bullshit dodging.[/QUOTE] As I said we'll be here all day and when we've already got several points going at once, why bother. If you're so indignant though then let's start with the common treatment of the patriarchy as a world conspiracy where you replace jews or illuminati with white men. As if all this stuff including gender roles was not a chicken/egg issue and may have some anthropological basis in gender dimorphism, but is a concerted effort to enforce their own views from the top. Cultural change, if it is so wanted, will not occur by demanding it and it will not happen from absurd ideals that can't even answer how a world without patriarchy would be. [QUOTE=Cone;43244106]you don't need feminism specifically to teach you these things, but a good thing to keep in mind is that feminism is just a different kind of egalitarianism. so maybe you didn't learn these things from feminism specifically, but if you actually took them to heart then you would definitely agree with its goals. because like i said earlier in the thread: feminism is pretty much just directed egalitarianism, which is itself deeply tied to the concept of privilege, and thus, human decency. [editline]20th December[/editline] what i'm saying is, if you actually, genuinely believe in basic human decency, then you can't not be a feminist; it's inextricably linked to egalitarianism, which is itself linked to humanism (i.e. human decency)[/QUOTE] As I have said, the reasons for discarding the label are how poisonous the label has become and how it is hurting actual efforts to bring equality. Nothing is inherently wrong with the goal of equality, but self-identifying using that label is a problem. I don't need to label myself as a socialist to believe in welfare and economic equality. I don't need to label myself a gamer to play video games, and I don't need to label myself a feminist to believe in gender equality. As you say, it is basic human decency, why is such a label necessary?
'As I said we'll be here all day and when we've already got several points going at once, why bother. If you're so indignant though then let's start with the common treatment of the patriarchy as a world conspiracy where you replace jews or illuminati with white men. As if all this stuff including gender roles was not a chicken/egg issue and may have some anthropological basis in gender dimorphism, but is a concerted effort to enforce their own views from the top. Cultural change, if it is so wanted, will not occur by demanding it and it will not happen from absurd ideals that can't even answer how a world without patriarchy would be.' yeah see, the reason you don't identify as a feminist is actually because you aren't one
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43245147]'As I said we'll be here all day and when we've already got several points going at once, why bother. If you're so indignant though then let's start with the common treatment of the patriarchy as a world conspiracy where you replace jews or illuminati with white men. As if all this stuff including gender roles was not a chicken/egg issue and may have some anthropological basis in gender dimorphism, but is a concerted effort to enforce their own views from the top. Cultural change, if it is so wanted, will not occur by demanding it and it will not happen from absurd ideals that can't even answer how a world without patriarchy would be.' yeah see, the reason you don't identify as a feminist is actually because you aren't one[/QUOTE] No true Scotsman then? Or do you really think that all of feminism comprises radical feminism? Funnily enough though, because I don't identify as a feminist, I'm not pressured into believing what you say is right solely because you yell it loudest.
[quote] Cultural change, if it is so wanted, will not occur by demanding it and it will not happen from absurd ideals that can't even answer how a world without patriarchy would be.'[/quote] And you also demonstrate your ignorance. Cultural change has never occured without demands from one group or another and there's been plenty of talk of how a non-sexist world would work. Bad reading, where art thou when I need you?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43245207]No true Scotsman then? Or do you really think that all of feminism comprises radical feminism? Funnily enough though, because I don't identify as a feminist, I'm not pressured into believing what you say is right solely because you yell it loudest.[/QUOTE] you said you identified as a feminist but then changed your mind because you don't feel you need a label. you were obviously lying because male patriarchy and gender roles is a key part of feminism. so in reality you're actually just telling us to not be feminists because you're against feminism [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] ALL feminism not just radical [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] and that you think it's akin to the illuminti or jews run the world bullshit again shows how little you understand of these concepts, yet you still try to call them flawed
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43245059]If you're so indignant though then let's start with the common treatment of the patriarchy as a world conspiracy where you replace jews or illuminati with white men. As if all this stuff including gender roles was not a chicken/egg issue and may have some anthropological basis in gender dimorphism, but is a concerted effort to enforce their own views from the top. Cultural change, if it is so wanted, will not occur by demanding it and it will not happen from absurd ideals that can't even answer how a world without patriarchy would be.[/QUOTE] Thats not what patriarchy is. Read a book.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;43245273]And you also demonstrate your ignorance. Cultural change has never occured without demands from one group or another and there's been plenty of talk of how a non-sexist world would work. Bad reading, where art thou when I need you?[/QUOTE] Demands only bring reactionary elements, why do you think MLK and Mandela were so well received yet Black Nationalists are dismissed? You might be able to legally change things by complaining enough but blacks were still treated abysmally after the law changed. Cultural change is a complex process and it is accomplished through far more subtle means than crying about patriarchy and privilege. A non-sexist world is one thing, a world where you have gotten rid of the majority of men in power, there are no gender differences in interests, where there is no discrimination whatsoever and the natural sexual dimorphism of humans is integrated into this perfect utopia is completely absurd. There are some elements that are cultural, others are in human nature and you will never eradicate them, yet you can't even tell the difference. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;43245296]you said you identified as a feminist but then changed your mind because you don't feel you need a label. you were obviously lying because male patriarchy and gender roles is a key part of feminism. so in reality you're actually just telling us to not be feminists because you're against feminism [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] ALL feminism not just radical [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] and that you think it's akin to the illuminti or jews run the world bullshit again shows how little you understand of these concepts, yet you still try to call them flawed[/QUOTE] And your basis for ALL feminism believing in the big bad patriarchy is an assertion that it must be true and you were never a real feminist to begin with. Even though feminism is inherently about equality between the sexes, to be a TRUE feminist you have to believe that white men control the world and there is absolutely no biological difference of preference, nature vs nurture be damned it's all cultural. Also you're not allowed to understand that "equality" is a tricky word in itself and that perfect equality is impossible due to intangibles, preferences and pure practicality. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43245509]Thats not what patriarchy is. Read a book.[/QUOTE] "You don't agree with me and didn't give a perfect explanation in a short paragraph, you must be an idiot."
Cultural change wont occur by demanding it? The fuck? While youre looking at books, open a history book. Look up womens suffrage and civil rights.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43245564]Cultural change wont occur by demanding it? The fuck? While youre looking at books, open a history book. Look up womens suffrage and civil rights.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43245522]Demands only bring reactionary elements, why do you think MLK and Mandela were so well received yet Black Nationalists are dismissed? You might be able to legally change things by complaining enough but blacks were still treated abysmally after the law changed. Cultural change is a complex process and it is accomplished through far more subtle means than crying about patriarchy and privilege.[/QUOTE] We've had womens suffrage here since the country was made, and yet we didn't have a single woman in parliament for decades. There is a big difference between what the law decides, and what people think.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43245522]"You don't agree with me and didn't give a perfect explanation in a short paragraph, you must be an idiot."[/QUOTE] your explanation wasn't "not perfect" it was just flat-out wrong. you're acting like you know what you're talking about and it's embarrassing, yeah. [editline]19th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43245628]We've had womens suffrage here since the country was made, and yet we didn't have a single woman in parliament for decades. There is a big difference between what the law decides, and what people think.[/QUOTE] well making it legal for women to serve in parliament certainly helps make the process possible, surely?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43245665]your explanation wasn't "not perfect" it was just flat-out wrong. you're acting like you know what you're talking about and it's embarrassing, yeah.[/quote] You know for someone who claimed I was dodging bullshit by just referencing what I disagreed with, you've done nothing but claim "No you're wrong and an idiot", so how about you save the world in your slacktivist way and explain to me what it is? Or are you just doing this to make your balls feel big and have no idea yourself? [quote]well making it legal for women to serve in parliament certainly helps make the process possible, surely?[/QUOTE] It removes the barrier for it to happen but it also causes a huge reactionary element just in legalising it. We've got cultural acceptance for gay marriage before it's legally allowed too so either can occur first. The point is though that they are completely different things and you're only polarising people and setting a bad example for the entire movement by demanding things rather than using basic PR to convince crowds.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43245741]You know for someone who claimed I was dodging bullshit by just referencing what I disagreed with, you've done nothing but claim "No you're wrong and an idiot", so how about you save the world in your slacktivist way and explain to me what it is? Or are you just doing this to make your balls feel big and have no idea yourself?[/QUOTE] patriarchy is a social system where males are the primary authority figures and have the most social power. this is evident in pretty much every government which is made up of an overwhelmingly male majority. it's nothing malicious on the part of men, it's just that women make up half the population but not half the government, so they are underrepresented and this makes it easy to subjugate them because they have little avenue in the way of fighting back via political means. as a consequence we have established gender roles that are self-perpetuating and affect legislation. you wanna talk more about privilege? males are privileged in the fact that they don't have to deal with republicans drafting hundreds of bills dictating what they can do with their reproductive organs. a man in an office building doesn't spark debate over a "man's role in the workplace." a man can sleep around and not be socially ostracized. i'm not asking you to feel guilty i'm just asking you to acknowledge that this shit exists.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43245875]patriarchy is a social system where males are the primary authority figures and have the most social power. this is evident in pretty much every government which is made up of an overwhelmingly male majority. it's nothing malicious on the part of men, it's just that women make up half the population but not half the government, [B]so they are underrepresented and this makes it easy to subjugate them because they have little avenue in the way of fighting back via political means[/B].[/quote] This is the first issue I take. Under-representation does not necessarily mean subjugation and the fact that women can and will protest to change these issues they deem unfair (or just vote against idiots as they have done) means that they have more than enough means to fight against said subjugation. The same way the government has the possibility to turn into fascist authoritarians, does not mean that they are already. [quote]as a consequence we have established gender roles that are self-perpetuating and affect legislation. you wanna talk more about privilege? males are privileged in the fact that they don't have to deal with republicans drafting hundreds of bills dictating what they can do with their reproductive organs. a man in an office building doesn't spark debate over a "man's role in the workplace." a man can sleep around and not be socially ostracized.[/QUOTE] To start with abortion isn't a men vs women issue and by [url=http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2013/04/15/poll-prolife-majority-reemerges-n1567435]this poll[/url], 46% of women are pro-life, but you dismiss what they want because you think you know better. As for gender roles, massive non sequitur there. Gender roles are far more complex than just being handed down from the fucking government and have a basis in human sexual dimorphism as well as long, ancient cultural aspects. As I said before, even if the government completely changed, the culture probably wouldn't and these gender roles would still exist, so why assume that it must be the men in power causing them? And if they're not causing them, why are they even relevant to the debate at all? You say the legislation is affected by the culture, but as is shown with black rights even if the legislation did change and was not swayed by the culture, it would continue to remain in the culture until other aspects removed it. If that is so, it does not require the legislation to perpetuate it and can do it by itself. If it does not need legislation, why blame those at the top when they are simply a symptom of a deeper problem and cause nothing?
Women may be underrepresented in government, [url=http://www.idea.int/gender/vt_by_country.cfm]but they make up the majority of the voters[/url].
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;43236771]To be fair the amount of leverage given to women in cases of rape accusations is pretty gross. I can speak from personal experience. I almost got into deep shit because a girl who I was on bad terms with (we were on bad terms because of social bullshit and we had a stint in a relationship that ended badly, I never assaulted, exhorted, or hurt her) tried to take me to court on rape charges (I should also mention this person was pretty imbalanced). Thankfully it never came to fruition because there was no evidence for the prosecution, it still heavily damaged my reputation among some people in my home town.[/QUOTE] And this is why it's a big problem. The system is so heavily skewed in favor of women it gives them incredible power to fuck a guy over. And even if the charges are thrown out the damage is done, no one wants to associate with someone who was accused of rape. Also, didn't anyone ever tell you don't stick your dick in crazy? This is why.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;43243241]And to that I'd say for a diverse ideology with varying ideals and methods for achieving goals, a few sentences in the dictionary just doesn't cover it. The reason people don't want to label themselves as feminists is the same reason they don't want to label themselves as MRAs, [b]because of idiots giving the entire label a bad name. I considered myself a feminist before all this stupid shit, then it became apparent that the label was associated with radical feminists now who think hurt feelings are the cause of all problems and try to shame people they deem privileged.[/b] [b]So rather than try to disassociate myself from that shit by using terms like radical or third-wave, its better to drop all of it and not associate with anything because this is all so retarded.[/b][/QUOTE] Luv u mang <3 Finally someone with common sense.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43236584]Feminism isn't about equality. Its about fighting for womens rights. Plenty of feminists have this strange way of thinking. Something about how men have the power in the patriarchy.[/QUOTE] Ok ok ok rewind. What the fuck are you on about. Have you even met actual feminists? Like through the tumblr slacktivist sjw bullshit, honest to god feminists?
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;43240719]not big on equality[/QUOTE] Feminism is a name for a few different things, it's been picked up on by a bunch of different people that feminism is more of a blanket term, from true gender equality to the crazy bullshit activism that involves calling all men rapists, assaulting churches, you get the idea. That means when I say I'm not a fan of feminism, I'm not a fan of their one-sided methods in chasing gender equality, because although it seems to be 'unfashionable' to take this viewpoint, there are inequalities in both male and female genders. And yet just by calling it 'feminism' you seem to belittle or gloss over this fact, and instead focus on inequalities imposed on females. That's why feminism is a movement that does not achieve full gender equality if their activists or anyone with an actual manifesto is anything to go by. I'm sure there are feminists who want true gender equality, but they shouldn't go under that label.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;43242165]For a period of time the thread promoting this mensrights funtime activity was the most upvoted post on reddit's mensrights board[/QUOTE] Not to mention that /r/mensrights promotes A Voice For Men, a website whose leader repeatedly stated in interviews that if he was ever brought on a jury for a rape trial, he would vote "not guilty" for a man even if there was overwhelming evidence that he did it. What a bunch of class acts. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;43243241]The reason people don't want to label themselves as feminists is the same reason they don't want to label themselves as MRAs, because of idiots giving the entire label a bad name. So rather than try to disassociate myself from that shit by using terms like radical or third-wave, its better to drop all of it and not associate with anything because this is all so retarded.[/QUOTE] Relabeling feminism as something else with the specific intent to make it more palatable to people who aren't even interested or invested in its goals seems at best counterproductive and at worst incredibly dishonest. Feminism's "PR problem" comes from aggressively misogynistic dickweasels like Rush Limbaugh, in a misogynist dominated media, seeking to shame feminists with false accusations and strawmen. Feminism "having a bad name" isn't a reason to change the name, it's a reason to get the message out and be better understood.
I always assumed Men's Rights activism was the kind of thing you grew out of like a goth phase or fingerless gloves
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43234399]The difference is all they're doing is wasting the faculties time without very much public visibility, which is basically the exact opposite thing you want to be doing.[/QUOTE] It's in the news and we're talking about it. That's something.
[QUOTE=Stromboli;43251403]I always assumed Men's Rights activism was the kind of thing you grew out of like a goth phase or fingerless gloves[/QUOTE] No, that's just a result of being and ignorant and awful human being to the core. Unlike being a goth or MRA
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