How do you fight possible false rape reports? Get your MRA buddies and spam actual false rape report
291 replies, posted
What is the point you are trying to make? That it's the fault of patriarchy? Rangergxi said it's a societal problem he said "Both sexes perpetuate gender roles that negatively affect both men and women." but you're telling him that he's wrong, so patriarchy must be something else, so what is patriarchy then?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43266754]What is the point you are trying to make? That it's the fault of patriarchy? Rangergxi said it's a societal problem he said "Both sexes perpetuate gender roles that negatively affect both men and women." but you're telling him that he's wrong, so patriarchy must be something else, so what is patriarchy then?[/QUOTE]
Then you tell me, why do these gender roles exist? Why do both sexes perpetuate them? How do we solve a problem if we don't know what's causing it?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43266784]Then you tell me, why do these gender roles exist? Why do both sexes perpetuate them? How do we solve a problem if we don't know what's causing it?[/QUOTE]
Is that supposed to be the explanation on what patriarchy is? (which isn't a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles according to you people)
[QUOTE=Zeke129;43262875]There is a good thing that came of this - the next time MRAs talk about how false rape reports are the worst crime in the world, we can simply ask if they mean like the false rape reports MRAs did that one time.[/QUOTE]
I know I'm waaaaay late here, but I'm fairly certain that the people who did this aren't trying to say "oh all women are fucking bitches who lie about being raped", they're saying that it's a terrible idea to have a system that allows anyone to anonymously have someone else reported and investigated for sexual harassment. They aren't saying women lying about false rape reports are the issue here, it's the fact that it's completely anonymous and abusable as hell, like SWATting
And no, I didn't say he was wrong. In fact if you read my other post you'd see that I agree that both sexes perpetuate gender roles [I]because of a patriarchal system pressuring them to do so.[/I]
[editline]21st December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43266801]Is that supposed to be the explanation on what patriarchy is? (which isn't a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles according to you people)[/QUOTE]
I'm legitimately asking for your personal input. What do you think is causing these gender roles?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43266805]And no, I didn't say he was wrong. In fact if you read my other post you'd see that I agree that both sexes perpetuate gender roles [I]because of a patriarchal system pressuring them to do so.[/I][/QUOTE]
He said that there's a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles, yet you are saying he doesn't understand something. I'm asking you what that is. Or the only point you are making is that the "societal problem of perpetuating gender roles" should be replaced with "patriarchy"?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43266805]I'm legitimately asking for your personal input. What do you think is causing these gender roles?[/QUOTE]
Because the division of labor we once needed has been strongly imprinted in culture with lots of artificial bullshit built on top of it and as many cultural things it's hard to get rid of. Basically people think "that's the way it's supposed to be" or that "it's natural order of things".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43266860]He said that there's a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles, yet you are saying he doesn't understand something. I'm asking you what that is. Or the only point you are making is that the "societal problem of perpetuating gender roles" should be replaced with "patriarchy"?[/QUOTE]
His previous post said (quite literally)
[quote]Seriously though. People blame gender discrimination on the male dominated patriarchy when this isn't really the case.[/quote]
This implies he thinks there's some other societal problem perpetuating gender roles (other than patriarchy), so clearly he doesn't get that those issues are caused by patriarchy, which is what we're arguing.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43266645]Which is something that came about because of women being looked at as weaker, thus not fit for serving the country.
Is this a completely impossible concept for you to understand?[/QUOTE]
Or men being disposable, 'cause one man can impregnate many women, but a woman can only gestate one baby at a time?
[QUOTE=Ericson666;43266804]I know I'm waaaaay late here, but I'm fairly certain that the people who did this aren't trying to say "oh all women are fucking bitches who lie about being raped", they're saying that it's a terrible idea to have a system that allows anyone to anonymously have someone else reported and investigated for sexual harassment. They aren't saying women lying about false rape reports are the issue here, it's the fact that it's completely anonymous and abusable as hell, like SWATting[/QUOTE]
Don't MRAs [b]want[/b] it to be anonymous? The way this system was set up seems like an MRAs dream: the accused person isn't publicly paraded around as some kind of rapist.
Or do they think anonymity should only apply one-way
[QUOTE=Zeke129;43262875]There is a good thing that came of this - the next time MRAs talk about how false rape reports are the worst crime in the world, we can simply ask if they mean like the false rape reports MRAs did that one time.[/QUOTE]
i dont get this. what's the difference between "those damn feminists" vs. "those damn MRAs"
they're both "us vs." them" mentalities
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;43268999]i dont get this. what's the difference between "those damn feminists" vs. "those damn MRAs"
they're both "us vs." them" mentalities[/QUOTE]
The difference is that despite the name, MRAs are basically just anti-feminist reactionaries
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;43268999]i dont get this. what's the difference between "those damn feminists" vs. "those damn MRAs"
they're both "us vs." them" mentalities[/QUOTE]
MRA is a non-constructive form of social criticism whos sole purpose for budding off of the passive mens movement was to butt heads with feminists over perceived double standards. MRAs actively impede and disrupt tangible feminist-based egalitarian initiatives, without providing or making any effort to actually promote egalitarianism between the sexes.
The mens movement actually did something passive and constructive for men, MRA on the other hand was a splinter ideology that seeks to impede feminism. Seeking to rectify the occasional mens rights issues, whilst simultaneously trying to disrupt womens right reformations is inherently misogynistic and counter-productive to concepts of egalitarianism.
That's the short form explanation of what's wrong with the MRA movement.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43266645]Which is something that came about because of women being looked at as weaker, thus not fit for serving the country.[/QUOTE]
It also comes from the belief of men being expendable.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43265840]Not much really added. Gender roles affect both genders negatively. Women are expected to serve men but men are expected to serve the country, etc.[/QUOTE]
it's just that one side(men) gain privilege and empowerment from their gender roles
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43269692]It also comes from the belief of men being expendable.[/QUOTE]
Because of the belief that women are weak and need protection and need to raise the kids.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;43267145]This implies he thinks there's some other societal problem perpetuating gender roles (other than patriarchy), so clearly he doesn't get that those issues are caused by patriarchy, which is what we're arguing.[/QUOTE]
He said there's a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles though. So if anything, he misunderstands the definition of patriarchy or someone has been using wrong meaning of it in here, I haven't read the entire thread.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43269728]Because of the belief that women are weak and need protection and need to raise the kids.[/QUOTE]
Can you stop with this stupid auction who's worse? And with the stupid logic that gender roles are men's invention and they were made to benefit them and that the negative gender roles for men are just a unforeseen accidental and unwanted consequence?
I could blame every male gender role on discrimination against men too. Women don't want to work so they send men to do that. Men are emotionless robots so they shouldn't raise kids. Men should be taking care of all the problems so they should be politicians. But that makes no fucking sense, does it?
Both men and women perpetuated (and still are) gender roles ever since the division of labor. Because they were beneficial at the time. And they were so strongly imprinted in culture that they are present to this day. Some are beneficial for women, some are beneficial for men, one of them being dominant in the family and thus larger groups.
Gender roles are not an invention made by men. Blaming all gender roles on discrimination of women doesn't help at all. It makes it worse instead because you are putting all the blame on men, turning fight for equality into fight against oppression of men. You are making it look like all women are victims of evil men. It's antagonizing. Please stop.
Gender roles are a societal problem that has to be changed by society as a whole. Lets start being nice to each other and fix this shit together. Or we can fight but I doubt that's gonna speed up the process.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270119]He said there's a societal problem of perpetuating gender roles though. So if anything, he misunderstands the definition of patriarchy or someone has been using wrong meaning of it in here, I haven't read the entire thread.[/QUOTE]
Ranger has had this shit literally spoonfed to him multiple times and he simply refuses to understand and restates the same dumb points every thread so i dunno what else we can do for him
[quote]Can you stop with this stupid auction who's worse? And with the stupid logic that gender roles are men's invention and they were made to benefit them and that the negative gender roles for men are just a unforeseen accidental and unwanted consequence?[/quote]
but that's exactly the case? however you're being disingenuous. patriarchy isn't a "men's invention" that was deliberately put in place, it's simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power.
the gender roles of men being strong, violent, macho etc. and women generally being submissive, emotional and weak is a male power fantasy. if there is a man who thinks he doesn't have to suppress his emotions, or be excessively masculine in order to be accepted by his peers, then he is fighting against patriarchy whether he realizes it or not. if, for example, a man was ridiculed by his peers for being "too sensitive" and not "man enough" then he is a male victim of patriarchy. patriarchy keeps all of us down, it just hurts women more because they don't benefit socially from it while men can.
[quote]I could blame every male gender role on discrimination against men too. Women don't want to work so they send men to do that. Men are emotionless robots so they shouldn't raise kids. Men should be taking care of all the problems so they should be politicians. But that makes no fucking sense, does it?[/quote]
lol this is just absurd. it makes no sense because institutionalized discrimination against men isn't a thing that really exists and even a cursory understanding of history will show you that.
[quote]Both men and women perpetuated (and still are) gender roles ever since the division of labor. Because they were beneficial at the time. And they were so strongly imprinted in culture that they are present to this day. Some are beneficial for women, some are beneficial for men, one of them being dominant in the family and thus larger groups.
Gender roles are not an invention made by men. Blaming all gender roles on discrimination of women doesn't help at all. It makes it worse instead because you are putting all the blame on men, turning fight for equality into fight against oppression of men. You are making it look like all women are victims of evil men. It's antagonizing. Please stop.
Gender roles are a societal problem that has to be changed by society as a whole. Lets start being nice to each other and fix this shit together. Or we can fight but I doubt that's gonna speed up the process.[/quote]
you're the one putting words in my mouth and strawmanning with bullshit like "you're blaming all problems on the evil men!!" when i haven't said anything like that. what i am blaming is the male power structures that exist in our society that force each gender to conform to certain characteristics or risk being ostracized.
the only reason it's antagonizing is because it's a radical challenge of the status quo. the only way to equalize the sexes is to abolish gender roles and the only way to abolish gender roles is through the dismantlement of patriarchy.
i totally agree that gender roles are a societal problem that has to be changed by society as a whole, but we cannot fix a problem if we don't know what's causing it.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]but that's exactly the case? however you're being disingenuous. patriarchy isn't a "men's invention" that was deliberately put in place, it's simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power. [/QUOTE]
It's not a scheme by men ffs. Men have more power than women, because the father was the dominant one in the family back when we needed division of labor and thus only men could be leaders of larger groups. That gender role is still upheld to this day by society as a whole. All gender roles are upheld by society, not just by men.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]the gender roles of men being strong, violent, macho etc. and women generally being submissive, emotional and weak is a male power fantasy. if there is a man who thinks he doesn't have to suppress his emotions, or be excessively masculine in order to be accepted by his peers, then he is fighting against patriarchy whether he realizes it or not. if, for example, a man was ridiculed by his peers for being "too sensitive" and not "man enough" then he is a male victim of patriarchy. patriarchy keeps all of us down, it just hurts women more because they don't benefit socially from it while men can.[/QUOTE]
We agree there. I'd just use "gender roles" instead of "patriarchy" since patriarchy became a fucking buzzword since it's being misused and threw left and right. "Gender roles" are just more understandable to general public imo.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]lol this is just absurd. it makes no sense because institutionalized discrimination against men isn't a thing that really exists and even a cursory understanding of history will show you that.[/QUOTE]
Institutionalized discrimination against men isn't a thing, therefore all gender roles and standards are discriminatory towards women, even if they benefit them? That's fucking stupid. Gender roles work both ways. Not just against women. That's the point I'm making here.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]you're the one putting words in my mouth and strawmanning with bullshit like "you're blaming all problems on the evil men!!" when i haven't said anything like that. what i am blaming is the male power structures that exist in our society that force each gender to conform to certain characteristics or risk being ostracized.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but saying that all the gender roles are discriminatory against women, that there are no discriminatory gender roles for men, and that it's the men in power who maintain those gender roles, is literally putting all the blame on men, which turns the fight for equality into a fight against men. Which isn't helping at all.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]the only reason it's antagonizing is because it's a radical challenge of the status quo. [/QUOTE]
No it's antagonizing because it's going "men are evil and women are the victims, we have to strip men of their privilege".
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379]the only way to equalize the sexes is to abolish gender roles and the only way to abolish gender roles is through the dismantlement of patriarchy.
i totally agree that gender roles are a societal problem that has to be changed by society as a whole, but we cannot fix a problem if we don't know what's causing it.[/QUOTE]
Patriarchy is a set of gender roles. You just said that to abolish gender roles you need to abolish gender roles. Why throw patriarchy everywhere? Just oppose gender roles.
And society as a whole is upholding gender roles, because people think "it's the right order of things" because that's what their parents told them, and their parents before them. Society as a whole has to stop telling people how to live their lives.
you literally replied to the part where he says that the patriarchy isn't men's invention with 'it's not a scheme by men ffs' are you even reading what you're replying to?
what silly sil is trying to say is:
"i want to feel like i support equal rights without using the terminology or understanding the theory of equal rights. i also do not want to associate myself with anyone else who is pushing for equal rights."
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43270597]you literally replied to the part where he says that the patriarchy isn't men's invention with 'it's not a scheme by men ffs' are you even reading what you're replying to?[/QUOTE]
I literally replied to the part where he says "it's simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power." with "it's not a scheme by men ffs" are you even reading what you're replying to?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43270605]what silly sil is trying to say is:
"i want to feel like i support equal rights without using the terminology or understanding the theory of equal rights. i also do not want to associate myself with anyone else who is pushing for equal rights."[/QUOTE]
More like I support equal rights and by extension feminism and I fucking hate it when someone tries to turn feminism and by extension fight for equal rights into a fight against men, because it's antagonizing and exactly what people who oppose gender equality want.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270578]It's not a scheme by men ffs.[/QUOTE]
[quote]patriarchy isn't a "men's invention" that was deliberately put in place[/quote]
reading comprehension.
[quote]Men have more power than women, because the father was the dominant one in the family back when we needed division of labor and thus only men could be leaders of larger groups. That gender role is still upheld to this day by society as a whole. All gender roles are upheld by society, not just by men.[/quote]
yes, men were (and still are) the primary authority figures. that's the very definition of patriarchy.
[quote]We agree there. I'd just use "gender roles" instead of "patriarchy" since patriarchy became a fucking buzzword since it's being misused and threw left and right. "Gender roles" are just more understandable to general public imo.[/quote]
but there's a distinction. patriarchy is male power. the unique characteristics of each gender role are a direct result of that male power. it's not a buzzword. people are just dumb and ignorant and strawman it into "WHITE MALE CONSPIRACY" like you are doing.
[quote]Institutionalized discrimination against men isn't a thing, therefore all gender roles and standards are discriminatory towards women, even if they benefit them? That's fucking stupid. Gender roles work both ways. Not just against women. That's the point I'm making here.[/quote]
gender roles work both ways but only one gender can use their role to elevate their social and political status.
[quote]I'm sorry but saying that all the gender roles are discriminatory against women, that there are no discriminatory gender roles for men, and that it's the men in power who maintain those gender roles, is literally putting all the blame on men, which turns the fight for equality into a fight against men. Which isn't helping at all.[/quote]
haven't said any of those things.
the fight for equality is a fight against male power structures, not men specifically. the only people who think it's an attack on men are men who are insecure about keeping their privilege.
[quote]No it's antagonizing because it's going "men are evil and women are the victims, we have to strip men of their privilege".[/quote]
didn't say men are evil. men in an androcentric society DO have privilege, and part of establishing equality is to get rid of that privilege.
[quote]Patriarchy is a set of gender roles.[/quote]
no it's not.
[quote]And society as a whole is upholding gender roles, because people think "it's the right order of things" because that's what their parents told them, and their parents before them. Society as a whole has to stop telling people how to live their lives.[/quote]
yes because patriarchy is deeply ingrained in our culture and has existed for as long have humans have been around. we will never get rid of gender roles without getting rid of patriarchy and privilege.
[editline]22nd December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270675]I literally replied to the part where he says "it's simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power." with "it's not a scheme by men ffs" are you even reading what you're replying to?[/QUOTE]
but that isn't a scheme that men are secretly plotting in some dark room. that's people in power wanting to maintain their power which has always been a thing ever since social and political power has existed.
[quote]More like I support equal rights and by extension feminism and I fucking hate it when someone tries to turn feminism and by extension fight for equal rights into a fight against men, because it's antagonizing and exactly what people who oppose gender equality want.[/quote]
the fight for equal rights isn't a fight against men and you're ignorant if you think it is. i'd like you to demonstrate how it's a "fight against men" specifically.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270675]
More like I support equal rights and by extension feminism and I fucking hate it when someone tries to turn feminism and by extension fight for equal rights into a fight against men, because it's antagonizing and exactly what people who oppose gender equality want.[/QUOTE]
name someone who does that
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270675]I literally replied to the part where he says "it's simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power." with "it's not a scheme by men ffs" are you even reading what you're replying to?
More like I support equal rights and by extension feminism and I fucking hate it when someone tries to turn feminism and by extension fight for equal rights into a fight against men, because it's antagonizing and exactly what people who oppose gender equality want.[/QUOTE]
really, who has turned this into a fight against men? and you're not allowed to say tumblr
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43270772]really, who has turned this into a fight against men? and you're not allowed to say tumblr[/QUOTE]
Tumblr.
The T is capitalized, it's different.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]reading comprehension.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270578][QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379][patriarchy] is simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power.[/QUOTE]
It's not a scheme by men ffs.[/QUOTE]
Reading comprehension you say.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]yes, men were (and still are) the primary authority figures. that's the very definition of patriarchy.[/QUOTE]
Is rewording what I said supposed to be a counter argument? How is this relevant to the fact that it's the society who upholds that men are the authority figures, not just men?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]but there's a distinction. patriarchy is male power. [B]the unique characteristics of each gender role are a direct result of that male power.[/B] it's not a buzzword.[/QUOTE]
And this is exactly where you are full of shit. Gender roles come from the division of labor we once had. Not from "male power". One of the gender roles being that men are the authority figures.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]people are just dumb and ignorant and strawman it into "WHITE MALE CONSPIRACY" like you are doing.[/QUOTE]
You're the one saying that it's men who maintain it and that every single gender role even if beneficial for women, is discriminatory towards women. That to fix everything you need to take power from men.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]gender roles work both ways but only one gender can use their role to elevate their social and political status.[/QUOTE]
So one side has more negative gender roles than the other, never denied that. So what?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]haven't said any of those things.[/QUOTE]
You are so full of shit.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270379][patriarchy] is simply the consequence of men having most of the power in society and wanting to maintain that power.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691] patriarchy is male power. [B]the unique characteristics of each gender role are a direct result of that male power.[/B] [/QUOTE]
Every gender role is because of men's privilege and it's upheld by men, that's what you fucking said.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]the fight for equality is a fight against male power structures, not men specifically. the only people who think it's an attack on men are men who are insecure about keeping their privilege.
didn't say men are evil. men in an androcentric society DO have privilege, and part of establishing equality is to get rid of that privilege.[/QUOTE]
But you make men source of the problem. And you make taking something from them a solution to the problem. When it should be society working together on getting rid of gender roles.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]no it's not.[/QUOTE]
I thought patriarchy is male dominated society. Where men are the authority figures and the strong ones. Which sets all kinds of gender roles.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]yes because patriarchy is deeply ingrained in our culture and has existed for as long have humans have been around. we will never get rid of gender roles without getting rid of patriarchy and privilege.[/QUOTE]
Men being the authority figures is just another gender role.
To get rid of gender roles you need to teach the society that there are no things that "women shouldn't do" or "men shouldn't do" neither there are things that "men should do" or "women should do".
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]but that isn't a scheme that men are secretly plotting in some dark room. [/QUOTE]
Didn't you say something about using strawmen?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]that's people in power wanting to maintain their power which has always been a thing ever since social and political power has existed.[/QUOTE]
Except it's not just men upholding this gender role. That's the fucking point.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;43270691]the fight for equal rights isn't a fight against men and you're ignorant if you think it is. i'd like you to demonstrate how it's a "fight against men" specifically.[/QUOTE]
Blaming men for upholding gender roles, saying that all gender roles even if beneficial for women, stem from being discriminatory towards women, saying that to fix gender roles you just have to take something that men hold dear.
How did I know this thread would have Silly Sil being an apologist in it
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply?" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270818]How did I know this thread would have Silly Sil being an apologist in it[/QUOTE]
How did I know you wouldn't use any actual arguments?
It just made me chuckle thats all
just an observation don't get your panties in a twist
[editline]22nd December 2013[/editline]
"Gender roles come from the division of labor we once had. Not from "male power"."
lmao
yeah like slavery is just a division of labour~
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270850]It just made me chuckle thats all
just an observation don't get your panties in a twist
[editline]22nd December 2013[/editline]
"Gender roles come from the division of labor we once had. Not from "male power"."
lmao
yeah like slavery is just a division of labour~[/QUOTE]
Did you just fucking compare gender roles with slavery? You are insane.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.