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No I compared it to division of labour can't you read though you do make me want to sing some bob marley emancipate yourself from mental slavery~~~
It's funny because Gender-roles have in fact throughout the vast majority of history benefited women far more than they did men. You want to know what male-privilege got men for the majority of history? Hard, usually dangerous work, and shoved into a battle-field with his only option to kill or be killed. Where as women typically got to sit safe at home. This wasn't a system designed to oppress women, it was a system designed to keep them safe when dangers were very common-place. It was important for societies, because they needed to keep reproducing to survive the harsh realities of warfare, be-it economical or traditional. We've only very recently, in these past 100 years, been in a society where these roles have started to become unnecessary due to the structure and safety brought about by the 21st century in first world countries.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270888]No I compared it to division of labour can't you read[/QUOTE] So the initial division of labor was forced on women by men? And the division of labor, was a set of gender roles itself, which continue to this day, modified by time.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270899]So the initial division of labor was forced on women by men?[/QUOTE] Gender roles were sure [editline]22nd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=soulharvester;43270898]It's funny because Gender-roles have in fact throughout the vast majority of history benefited women far more than they did men.[/QUOTE] Signed. Women throughout history.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270903]Gender roles were sure[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you even arguing? Division of labor is a set of gender roles. Men are this and that so they do this, women are this and that so they do that.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43270924]What the fuck are you even arguing? Division of labor is a set of gender roles. Men are this and that so they do this, women are this and that so they do that.[/QUOTE] division of labour is cooperating industries not gender division of labour doesn't say a women needs to cook, but only that someone needs to cook men decided that women should cook
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270929]division of labour is cooperating industries not gender division of labour doesn't say a women needs to cook, but only that someone needs to cook men decided that women should cook[/QUOTE] Or maybe Women decided that Men must do the hard, dangerous shit, so therefore women must cook, because the men are otherwise occupied risking their fucking lives?
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43270935]Or maybe Women decided that Men must do the hard, dangerous shit, so therefore women must cook, because the men are otherwise occupied getting risking their fucking lives?[/QUOTE] yeah except that men also decided that women for the most part throughout history were not capable of making such decisions if you disagree just open up a history book this is amazing, you're literally suggesting that women forced men to risk their lives for them and created this gender role Not even Silly would argue this.
That's just societal evolution, the societies that protected women survived and grew, those societies that let them die didn't have the reproductive capacity to compete.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270929]division of labour is cooperating industries not gender division of labour doesn't say a women needs to cook, but only that someone needs to cook men decided that women should cook[/QUOTE] And the division of labor we had was the very definition of cooperation. Men are stronger physically and expendable since you need only 1 to make many babies, so they can go hunt, and if some of them die, too bad. So long travels and hunting is off for women. Taking care of the offspring and gathering food using safer methods was logical. Everything else came from that. Not from men going "all the bitches oughta listen to us now, cause we stronger" one day. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43270937]Not even Silly would argue this.[/QUOTE] Made me laugh
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43270947]That's just societal evolution, the societies that protected women survived and grew, those societies that let them die didn't have the reproductive capacity to compete.[/QUOTE] you're like a post away from saying biothruths or something
Honestly, I don't think gender roles are an invention in the proper sense of the word. They're just something that society happened to fall into, and we have yet to get out of. The idea that men [I]decided [/I]to make women cook and clean is an absurd one. The ramifications of those roles are still a problem, and I doubt anyone would argue that they're not a problem; but my main issue is with the idea that they are a conspiracy in any sense. Trying to pin the blame on anyone, men or women, is fucking absurd.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43270947]That's just societal evolution, the societies that protected women survived and grew, those societies that let them die didn't have the reproductive capacity to compete.[/QUOTE] so women didn't decide this as you originally claimed? stay coherent [editline]22nd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43270953]but my main issue is with the idea that they are a conspiracy in any sense. Trying to pin the blame on anyone, men or women, is fucking absurd.[/QUOTE] If you're using the words conspiracy and blame i highly doubt you understand gender studies at an academic level those are words used by people who are trying to project some kind of personal victim complex into the argument the same way people flip shit like that facepuncher who had that breakdown because he heard the words white privilege but he himself being white still had a bad life
You're like a post away from getting me banned for flaming, This concept isn't rocket-science. Back when shit was dangerous, and everyone was competing to survive with each-other, only those societies that could keep up their reproductive capacity and population to sustain their war-efforts survived. How would Rome have fared, had they decided to start sending out all their women to die en-masse in the punic wars with carthage? That was decades of blood-shed, where either side's survival relied on constant re-population. Women were protected because they were necessary to a communitiy's ability to move forward and fend for itself. Men were disposable because the death of 90% of men still wouldn't hinder the potential rates for repopulation. Any society that didn't follow this system quickly died out. It's simply fucking logistics. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43270960]so women didn't decide this as you originally claimed? stay coherent[/QUOTE] I was simply countering your claim that men suddenly just as a whole said "Yeah, you stay here and cook, I'd much rather just go get impaled by a boar today".
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43270993]You're like a post away from getting me banned for flaming, This concept isn't rocket-science. Back when shit was dangerous, and everyone was competing to survive with each-other, only those societies that could keep up their reproductive capacity and population to sustain their war-efforts survived. How would Rome have fared, had they decided to start sending out all their women to die en-masse in the punic wars with carthage? That was decades of blood-shed, where either side's survival relied on constant re-population. Women were protected because they were necessary to a communitiy's ability to move forward and fend for itself. Men were disposable because the death of 90% of men still wouldn't hinder the potential rates for repopulation. Any society that didn't follow this system quickly died out. It's simply fucking logistics.[/QUOTE] No no no it was because ceasar though women are shit at fighting.
let us revisit this golden nugget "Or maybe Women decided that Men must do the hard, dangerous shit, so therefore women must cook, because the men are otherwise occupied getting risking their fucking lives?" [editline]22nd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=soulharvester;43270993]I was simply countering your claim that men suddenly just as a whole said "Yeah, you stay here and cook, I'd much rather just go get impaled by a boar today".[/QUOTE] so how much societal power did women actually have I mean you also maintain that women had it easy when it comes to gender roles.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270960]If you're using the words conspiracy and blame i highly doubt you understand gender studies at an academic level those are words used by people who are trying to project some kind of personal victim complex into the argument the same way people flip shit like that facepuncher who had that breakdown because he heard the words white privilege but he himself being white still had a bad life[/QUOTE] I'm saying that gender roles aren't an invention. No one, at any point decided that they should exist and be as they are now. In much the same way that at no point did H Erectus decide to lose its hair, it just did. I'm not saying that gender roles are natural, I'm just trying to distance the concept from the idea that they exist because of something. They're something that happened to appear as society developed (in the same way as religion and writing). Should we be rid of them? Of course, but they weren't invented.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43271015]I'm saying that gender roles aren't an invention. No one, at any point decided that they should exist and be as they are now. In much the same way that at no point did H Erectus decide to lose its hair, it just did. I'm not saying that gender roles are natural, I'm just trying to distance the concept from the idea that they exist because of something. They're something that happened to appear as society developed (in the same way as religion and writing). Should we be rid of them? Of course, but they weren't invented.[/QUOTE] so religion and writing weren't invented? because someone somewhere starting making very real decisions about writing and religion normally those who had societal influence which also happened to be mostly men didn't the same things happen to gender roles? I mean there is an entire case study of the role of gender in linguistics and religions.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271029]so religion and writing weren't invented?[/QUOTE] Touché. Despite my poor choice of comparison, the point still stands. If it doesn't, feel free to tell me why not.
Men have always taken the more dangerous jobs. [url]http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/09/occupational-male-female-death-gap-is.html[/url] You can look at it as men forcing women to do the easy jobs because they are 'weak' or you can look at it as women forcing men to do the dangerous jobs because they're 'disposable', it doesn't really matter however you look at it, that's simply how it turned out. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43271006]l]so how much societal power did women actually have I mean you also maintain that women had it easy when it comes to gender roles.[/QUOTE] Men had more 'societal power' because they were the ones fighting and dying to create and protect that power. I don't believe I said women had it easier, I said they had it safer.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43271052]Men have always taken the more dangerous jobs. [url]http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/09/occupational-male-female-death-gap-is.html[/url] You can look at it as men forcing women to do the easy jobs because they are 'weak' or you can look at it as women forcing men to do the dangerous jobs because they're 'disposable', it doesn't really matter however you look at it, that's simply how it turned out.[/QUOTE] men make men fight
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271056]men make men fight[/QUOTE] You're right, instead men should make women fight, amirightguys?
[QUOTE=soulharvester;43271052]I don't believe I said women had it easier, I said they had it safer.[/QUOTE] "It's funny because Gender-roles have in fact throughout the vast majority of history benefited women far more than they did men." [editline]22nd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=soulharvester;43271064]You're right, instead men should make women fight, amirightguys?[/QUOTE] how is this an argument for anything
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43270937]yeah except that men also decided that women for the most part throughout history were not capable of making such decisions if you disagree just open up a history book this is amazing, you're literally suggesting that women forced men to risk their lives for them and created this gender role Not even Silly would argue this.[/QUOTE] this is actually a very normal mra argument.
so is "It's funny because Gender-roles have in fact throughout the vast majority of history benefited women far more than they did men."
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271066]"It's funny because Gender-roles have in fact throughout the vast majority of history benefited women far more than they did men."[/QUOTE] In terms of protection, safety, and longevity, they did. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43271066]how is this an argument for anything[/QUOTE] Oh my bad I didn't realize that 4 line statement was an argument.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271029]so religion and writing weren't invented? because someone somewhere starting making very real decisions about writing and religion normally those who had societal influence which also happened to be mostly men didn't the same things happen to gender roles? I mean there is an entire case study of the role of gender in linguistics and religions.[/QUOTE] Correct, those who made the decisions regarding religion and writing would probably have been men, but it was men making those decisions because they were already in a position of power compared to women. As I said, gender roles weren't invented. They were almost certainly furthered by those who were initially favoured, but they weren't [I]invented [/I]by anyone.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43270953]Honestly, I don't think gender roles are an invention in the proper sense of the word. They're just something that society happened to fall into, and we have yet to get out of. The idea that men [I]decided [/I]to make women cook and clean is an absurd one. The ramifications of those roles are still a problem, and I doubt anyone would argue that they're not a problem; but my main issue is with the idea that they are a conspiracy in any sense. Trying to pin the blame on anyone, men or women, is fucking absurd.[/QUOTE] your main issue is a non issue. literally noone thinks it's some conspiracy thing, and blame has nothing to do with it
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43271094]Correct, those who made the decisions regarding religion and writing would probably have been men, but it was men making those decisions because they were already in a position of power compared to women. As I said, gender roles weren't invented. They were almost certainly furthered by those who were initially favoured, but they weren't [I]invented [/I]by anyone.[/QUOTE] so gender roles are a biotruth? even though you agree they shouldn't exist in todays society
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43271029]so religion and writing weren't invented? because someone somewhere starting making very real decisions about writing and religion normally those who had societal influence which also happened to be mostly men didn't the same things happen to gender roles? I mean there is an entire case study of the role of gender in linguistics and religions.[/QUOTE] Yes one day a shaman or whatever stood up and said "raising children and gathering berries is not manly enough, since now, only men can go hunt". [editline]22nd December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;43271102]so gender roles are a biotruth? even though you agree they shouldn't exist in todays society[/QUOTE] Division of labor and thus gender roles came from the fact that men were stronger and you don't need as much to keep a population growing. But hey the fact that only women can make babies is probably a biotruth you don't believe in.
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