• Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions by Ukraine
    71 replies, posted
[QUOTE=herp_derp;46305548][url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ba_1413979341[/url][/QUOTE] [quote]Speaker Information-Analytical Center of the National Security and Defense Andrei Lysenko Read more at [url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ba_1413979341#oxEIJJC93l1h6UyQ.99[/url][/quote] Soo an Ukranian official military representative claims those were not Ukranian munitions... [I]Bravo...[/I] And this is your source? You sir are indeed not serious, you are 100% chill. [QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305569]but rebels can also sabotage and leave misleading evidence, same thing ukraine has done before right?[/QUOTE] Uum jsut asking but when did Rebels provided misleading evidence that was noted and picked up by Humanitarian organisation?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46305577]Uum jsut asking but when did Rebels provided misleading evidence that was noted and picked up by Humanitarian organisation?[/QUOTE] that's the thing, we can't know that because regardless the side, we don't know who's doing what and if it is or isn't propaganda or manipulation
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305623]that's the thing, we can't know that because regardless the side, we don't know who's doing what and if it is or isn't propaganda or manipulation[/QUOTE] Soo in your opinion even Humanitarian Organisations can not be trusted on such cases? Well, that is a bit pessimistic even for me. I think OSCE and Human Rights are more then decent in their reports. There is ofcourse pressure of informational war on everyone, but those organisations try to be independant in their very core, atleast i hope untill prooved otherwise.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305569]but rebels can also sabotage and leave misleading evidence, same thing ukraine has done before right?[/QUOTE] We'll no for sure when or if HRW retracts their accusations, no sign of that so far. HRW are probably not that stupid. They know their involved in a situation where both sides view the propaganda war as being almost as important as... the actual war. HRW will probably be very aware that there will be attempts to mislead and that both sides will try to make the other look like shit. I expect they have procedures to ensure they're not being strung-along.
Anyway, if this is true, why is Ukraine shelling their own airport with this shit, what's the point of gaining it back if it's destroyed, the military keeps proving themselves incompetent as all hell, even rebels are doing a better work at maintain themselves intact.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305688]Anyway, if this is true, why is Ukraine shelling their own airport with this shit, what's the point of gaining it back if it's destroyed, the military keeps proving themselves incompetent as all hell, even rebels are doing a better work at maintain themselves intact.[/QUOTE] If this is true then they are just wanna be busy shelling donetsk and try to uphold somewhat of strategic points to continue.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305688]Anyway, if this is true, why is Ukraine shelling their own airport with this shit, what's the point of gaining it back if it's destroyed, the military keeps proving themselves incompetent as all hell, even rebels are doing a better work at maintain themselves intact.[/QUOTE] Well, what do you expect from half-assorted "army" of everyone who they could get into it, mixed with some guys from ultra-right organizations? Free hugs?
[QUOTE=DrAkcel;46305876]Well, what do you expect from half-assorted "army" of everyone who they could get into it, mixed with some guys from ultra-right organizations? Free hugs?[/QUOTE] free hugs sound great as long as the person is clean and hygienic tbh
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305893]free hugs sound great as long as the person is clean and hygienic tbh[/QUOTE] Then ukranian paramilitary hugs defiantly not your type. Anyhow, althought this might sound ridiculous -[I][B] winter is coming[/B][/I] And both ciitzens and military must be greatly concerned. Perhabs somebody somewhere wanna win a fight before his soldiers might start freezing.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46306146]Then ukranian paramilitary hugs defiantly not your type. Anyhow, althought this might sound ridiculous -[I][B] winter is coming[/B][/I] And both ciitzens and military must be greatly concerned. Perhabs somebody somewhere wanna win a fight before his soldiers might start freezing.[/QUOTE] Destroy houses and infrastructure then have a winter cease fire, the people will freeze or capitulate.
Ukraine is in a war with itself due to the want to split off some states to Russia, the government doesn't want this and starts throwing shit at the states that want to leave. that's pretty much all that's happening
[QUOTE=GentlemanLexi;46309369]Ukraine is in a war with itself due to the want to split off some states to Russia, the government doesn't want this and starts throwing shit at the states that want to leave. that's pretty much all that's happening[/QUOTE] Its not a war, its an anti-terror operation. Ukraine wouldn't be able to get loans if it were at war.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46309376]Its not a war, its an anti-terror operation. Ukraine wouldn't be able to get loans if it were at war.[/QUOTE] basically yes. They dub everyone terrorists because having civil war recognised would mean they can't have any elections. And by god almighty, if there is anything their politicians love more then power itself that is elections. Not to mention that their usual "Russia is to blame" getting thin reason for lack of heat in people's houses, soo they try to shift attention of their people.
Cluster bombs are fucked up. What really sucked was, when they were first used in Afghanistan, the bomblets were coloured bright yellow to draw attention to themselves and prevent casualties from unexploded ordinance. unfortunately, they happened to pick the exact same color as humanitarian ration packets dropped from planes.
[url]http://www.dw.de/doubts-arise-over-hrw-cluster-bomb-report-in-ukraine/a-18013354[/url] Looks like it's not as certain as some posters in this thread try to make it look like. OSCE says they didn't see shit.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310473][url]http://www.dw.de/doubts-arise-over-hrw-cluster-bomb-report-in-ukraine/a-18013354[/url] Looks like it's not as certain as some posters in this thread try to make it look like. OSCE says they didn't see shit.[/QUOTE] as with previous guy who posted twitters - in source person "doubting" HWR report is from Ukrainian Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies, other - of the Kyiv-based Razumkov Center and third one - of the Ukrainian consultancy firm Defense Express. Basically, you provided source screaming bias more then how you try to accuse HRW and "some posters". Try harder.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46310505]as with previous guy who posted twitters - in source person "doubting" HWR report is from Ukrainian Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies, other - of the Kyiv-based Razumkov Center and third one - of the Ukrainian consultancy firm Defense Express. Basically, you provided source screaming bias more then how you try to accuse HRW and "some posters". Try harder.[/QUOTE] Man I wish I could be such an analytic like you, racing through an article and pointing out it's super biased. The person doubting the HWR report is Michael Bociurkiw, he's not even from Ukraine. He's from Canada Did you even read? I was mainly talking about OSCE's report, which stated they didn't see any cluster bombs and would report them if they did.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310473][url]http://www.dw.de/doubts-arise-over-hrw-cluster-bomb-report-in-ukraine/a-18013354[/url] Looks like it's not as certain as some posters in this thread try to make it look like. OSCE says they didn't see shit.[/QUOTE] Sorry I fail to see what significance this news article is? What legitimacy does it afford other than that gained by owning a domain on the internet? If I set up a news site would I be postable as evidence. IT is true the SMM haven't reported it, but that are no omniscient, they are just groups going round the country observing happenings. What they report implies it has likely happened, what they do not report cannot well be commented on since there is a very real possibility of them not being in the area at the time. If HRW report something then it has some measure of significance and should be taken over some second rate news site of questionable alignment and vested interest. In short if it is reported by someone with legitimacy then it is likely true, if it is not explicitly reported it doesn't mean it is not true. Likewise if someone with a heavy bias/vested interest (ie Ukrainian or Russian government, rebels or any number of obscure clearly bias 'news' site you reference) reports something it is very likely skewed or entirely fabricated.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310597]Man I wish I could be such an analytic like you, racing through an article and pointing out it's super biased. Did you even read? I was mainly talking about OSCE's report, which stated they didn't see any cluster bombs and would report them if they did.[/QUOTE] I do not see direct quotation in their reports denying the case (i've actually checked them on official OSCE site), only portion from article that tries to gather weight by adding info from obviously not independant conslutants. Therefore i think i can allow myself to stamp "bullshit" over article as whole. Also what mdeceiver posted up here.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46310621]Sorry I fail to see what significance this news article is? What legitimacy does it afford other than that gained by owning a domain on the internet? If I set up a news site would I be postable as evidence.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle[/url] It's not "some random internet domain" [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;46310628]I do not see direct quotation in their reports denying the case (i've actually checked them on official OSCE site), only portion from article that tries to gather weight by adding info from obviously not independant conslutants. Therefore i think i can allow myself to stamp "bullshit" over article as whole. Also what mdeceiver posted up here.[/QUOTE] So you think Michael Bociurkiw is from the Ukrainian Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310642][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle[/url] It's not "some random internet domain"[/QUOTE] Good point but it doesn't refute the strong point that SMM not reporting !=> it didn't happen and HRW are lying.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310642][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle[/url] It's not "some random internet domain" [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] So you think Michael Bociurkiw is from the Ukrainian Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies?[/QUOTE] Don't try to play tongue bending with me, you know exactly what i mean. Article does not provides any confirmation on his words or quotation, you tried to show it as "report by OSCE" when such thing was never mentioned anywhere else, expecially on official OSCE source. Tl Dr - Michael Bociurkiw somehow managed to deny HWR report on some media but forgot to point it out on official OSCE report or anywhere else.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46310661]Good point but it doesn't refute the strong point that SMM not reporting !=> it didn't happen and HRW are lying.[/QUOTE] Actually I mentioned in my first post in this thread that it's not certain and I've seen quite some posters who thought this was a definite confirmation because HRW said it. I didn't say it's not possible, I said it's uncertain. [QUOTE=karimatrix;46310664]Don't try to play tongue bending with me, you know exactly what i mean. Article does not provides any confirmation on his words or quotation, you tried to show it as "report by OSCE" when such thing was never mentioned anywhere else, expecially on official OSCE source.[/QUOTE] Article shares what OSCE, HRW and Ukrainian sources mentioned. The person of interest doubting the report is from OSCE, besides I don't think OSCE puts every interview conversation on their site? What is there to put on though? Just look at their monitoring reports you'll see there's nothing about cluster bombs, as he said.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310671]Actually I mentioned in my first post in this thread that it's not certain and I've seen quite some posters who thought this was a definite confirmation because HRW said it. I didn't say it's not possible, I said it's uncertain. Article shares what OSCE, HRW and Ukrainian sources mentioned. The person of interest doubting the report is from OSCE, besides I don't think OSCE puts every interview conversation on their site? What is there to put on though? Just look at their monitoring reports you'll see there's nothing about cluster bombs, as he said.[/QUOTE] Article is a text, and when it "shares" only way to check such share, would be to try and find confirmation of article's info in his mentioned sources. HWR is here Ukranian sources can not be considered as unbias. OSCE Michael Bociurkiw's words are not present anywhere else. The only thing i am pulling throught is thought that perhabs article is not worth defending you try to provide. AS mdeceiver pointed out previously, SMM not everywhere, 90 people in warzone is not really signifacnt reaction force. therefore HWR report stands tall.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46310703]Article is a text, and when it "shares" only way to check such share, would be to try and find confirmation of article's info in his mentioned sources. HWR is here Ukranian sources can not be considered as unbias. OSCE Michael Bociurkiw's words are not present anywhere else.[/QUOTE] Well I doubt they'll make a report about the whole cluster bomb thing when you can simply look on their daily updates in Ukraine, no mention of cluster bombs. It would be pretty dumb if they'd miss such thing in their report wouldn't it?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310671]Actually I mentioned in my first post in this thread that it's not certain and I've seen quite some posters who thought this was a definite confirmation because HRW said it. I didn't say it's not possible, I said it's uncertain. [/quote] Very well, I suppose it is unconfirmed. OP source does say that someone used cluster munitions on dontesk before which resulted in a red cross person dying. [quote=hrw]An employee of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was killed on October 2 in an attack on Donetsk that included use of cluster munition rockets. ... There is particularly strong evidence that Ukrainian government forces were responsible for several cluster munition attacks on central Donetsk in early October, Human Rights Watch said. In addition to evidence at the impact site indicating that the cluster munitions came from the direction of government-controlled areas southwest of Donetsk, witnesses in that area said that they observed rockets being launched toward Donetsk on the times and days when cluster munitions struck the city[/quote] If that was the UA it would establish a precedent for their use by kiev forces, the report mentions thye have identifiable bits of the bombs so they might help find the perp. [quote=ghost] Article shares what OSCE, HRW and Ukrainian sources mentioned. The person of interest doubting the report is from OSCE, besides I don't think OSCE puts every interview conversation on their site?[/QUOTE] I'm going to wait for the attack to be put on the OSCE site before discussing this further, as of this post they are only covering up to 17th oct 6pm kiev time
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46310703] mdeceiver pointed out previously, SMM not everywhere, 90 people in warzone is not really signifacnt reaction force. therefore HWR report stands tall.[/QUOTE] How many are in HWR exactly?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46310709]Well I doubt they'll make a report about the whole cluster bomb thing when you can simply look on their daily updates in Ukraine, no mention of cluster bombs. It would be pretty dumb if they'd miss such thing in their report wouldn't it?[/QUOTE] Just for a note the OSCE report for those days is not yet out so it hasn't been "missed out" since the report has not yet been published. [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ghost656;46310738]How many are in HWR exactly?[/QUOTE] If the HWR were present at the time of the attack then they could have a team of 2. Likewise if you read the source they mention how they established the presence of cluster munitions and the direction they were fired from.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46310744]Just for a note the OSCE report for those days is not yet out so it hasn't been "missed out" since the report has not yet been published. [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] If the HWR were present at the time of the attack then they could have a team of 2. Likewise if you read the source they mention how they established the presence of cluster munitions and the direction they were fired from.[/QUOTE] Yeah, guess I'll wait until they're published.
I'd rather give the initial benefit of the doubt to the side that didn't blow up a civilian airliner unprovoked and then not have the balls to at least own up to it. We'll just have to wait for more information from people on the ground. As someone post a page back though, I don't know if Ukraine actually signed the treaty dealing with Cluster Munitions, so it might not be illegal for them to actually fire them.
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