• Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions by Ukraine
    71 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Deathbane;46310776]I'd rather give the initial benefit of the doubt to the side that didn't blow up a civilian airliner unprovoked and then not have the balls to at least own up to it.[/QUOTE] Maybe they didn't "own up" to it because they didn't do it? Also; this is not the first time HRW has taken shots at the Ukrainian government; back in July they accused them of using [URL="http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians"]grad rockets[/URL].
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46311061]Maybe they didn't "own up" to it because they didn't do it? Also; this is not the first time HRW has taken shots at the Ukrainian government; back in July they accused them of using [URL="http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians"]grad rockets[/URL].[/QUOTE] Well the rebels probably did do it, but it is a different situation. Civilians deaths for irresponsibly using legal weapons is different from civilian deaths for irresponsibility using illegal weapons.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46311074]Well the rebels probably did do it, but it is a different situation. Civilians deaths for irresponsibly using legal weapons is different from civilian deaths for irresponsibility using illegal weapons.[/QUOTE] I suspect that weapons like these are illegal because there is really no way to use them "responsibly". In either case I don't expect this will be the last time a major western organization will be forced to acknowledge crimes committed by the Ukrainian Army.
The Ukrainian government must be getting desperate if they are using weapons systems frowned upon by the Geneva Convention. I don't know why they would risk it however, since the EU (hopefully) would push them away if they are doing such things. It could be because they want to avoid full mobilization for war as someone else said, as that in itself carries a lot of stigma of civil war and will draw greater attention to the fighting, be it good or bad.
[QUOTE=Bonde;46311242]The Ukrainian government must be getting desperate if they are using weapons systems frowned upon by the Geneva Convention. I don't know why they would risk it however, since the EU (hopefully) would push them away if they are doing such things. It could be because they want to avoid full mobilization for war as someone else said, as that in itself carries a lot of stigma of civil war and will draw greater attention to the fighting, be it good or bad.[/QUOTE] I think the Ukrainian Army just assumed most westerners would dismiss any reports of their wrongdoing as "Russian Propaganda". They probably hadn't counted on being called out by an organization like HRW.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46311334]I think the Ukrainian Army just assumed most westerners would dismiss any reports of their wrongdoing as "Russian Propaganda". They probably hadn't counted on being called out by an organization like HRW.[/QUOTE] I think its more a matter of no accountability/rampant nationalism/poor discipline and I don't think the gov has absolute control over the army. Like I doubt there is some asshole sat there saying "hey guys lets use illegal and indiscriminate weapons in a population centre!" and then people agreeing with him. More the army being told to do what they need to do then some army guy saying "The people there are terrorists anyway or harbouring/supporting terrorists" or "this missile is the most powerful thing we have, lets us it to finish this asap" [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Bonde;46311242]The Ukrainian government must be getting desperate if they are using weapons systems frowned upon by the Geneva Convention. I don't know why they would risk it however, since the EU (hopefully) would push them away if they are doing such things. It could be because they want to avoid full mobilization for war as someone else said, as that in itself carries a lot of stigma of civil war and will draw greater attention to the fighting, be it good or bad.[/QUOTE] With this trouble, the economic turmoil and the growing influence of euro-skeptics, I don't think the EU would accept Ukraine (unfortunately since I think the EU is the biggest hope Ukraine has/had of escaping its corruption and string of shitty governments)
Kari, how does it feels to be the devils advocate ?
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;46328182]Kari, how does it feels to be the devils advocate ?[/QUOTE] while the separatists aren't actually free of guilt, neither is ukraine. grow up.
No one is free of guilt in war, and I hate the fact that people see it that way. I would personally like to see a Ukrainian victory, but I fear that the end result of something like that will be genocide in the East, as people take revenge for all the beatings and torture of innocent civilians.
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46329384]while the separatists aren't actually free of guilt, neither is ukraine. grow up.[/QUOTE] wow its almost like war isn't black and white or something.
The US uses cluster bombs too
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