White firefighters awarded $2.5 million in discrimination case - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34659919] if you want equality you should work towards equality, not giving one side a new edge in an attempt to make up for the actions of people that have been dead for generations.[/QUOTE] how exactly do we have equality without equalizing one side? we're not giving "a side" an edge because we want to make up for the actions of people, that just shows you don't even know what you are talking about. we're giving people who have less opportunity and power more ways to get out of their situation. do we look at poor people and say they don't deserve anything because the actions that led them to be poor were done by people who were dead generations ago? [editline]11th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34659945] But hey, let's just abuse our position as a race that used to be discriminated against to get ahead in society at the cost of the whites. Who cares about them?[/QUOTE] who the fuck is abusing their position as a race? you're making up this imaginary narrative. no-one is getting ahead at the cost of whites. and you wouldn't think that way unless you believe minorities don't deserve what white people to get. that is a point of view that harbours institutional racism which is well alive today.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34659962]how exactly do we have equality without equalizing one side? we're not giving "a side" an edge because we want to make up for the actions of people, that just shows you don't even know what you are talking about. we're giving people who have less opportunity and power more ways to get out of their situation. do we look at poor people and say they don't deserve anything because the actions that led them to be poor were done by people who were dead generations ago?[/QUOTE] you know there's poor white people too right? poverty and institutional racism are primary concerns, so deal with the institutional racism and help the poor, but don't help a specific race while other people remain impoverished. does affirmative action benefit everyone poor or just impoverished black people? and why race specific scholarships? instead of giving students an edge based on race to counteract institutionalized racism, fix the institution by getting rid of the racism and racist policies, rather than giving people an edge based on their race in an attempt to sidestep the issue and just counterbalance whatever racism they'll face later on.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;34657695] [release]At public colleges, white students made up 62.7 percent of the student population but were 73.1 percent of the recipients of merit-based grants and received 68.2 percent of the merit-based funds; at private nonprofit colleges, white students made up 66.8 percent of the collective student bodies but received nearly 80 percent of the merit-based grants. [b]Over all, white students were nearly twice as likely as minority students with SAT scores of at least 1400 (on a 1600 scale) to receive institutional merit-based scholarships, Kantrowitz says.[/b] [/release] [/QUOTE] Whites make up 72% of the American population. The release you posted concludes that whites recieve the amount of grants and funds they're supposed to. Of course whites are more likely to get scholarships, there's more of them! But you didn't bother to say that, did you?

[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660033]Whites make up 72% of the American population. They are actually under-represented in scholarships. [B]Of course whites are more likely to get scholarships, there's more of them![/B][/QUOTE] that's not how likelyhood works its not "more white people got scholarships", its "white people had a BETTER CHANCE of getting a scholarship"

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34659995]you know there's poor white people too right? poverty and institutional racism are primary concerns, so deal with the institutional racism and help the poor, but don't help a specific race while other people remain impoverished. does affirmative action benefit everyone poor or just impoverished black people?[/QUOTE] i don't understand this conception that we are just helping a specific race. that's a made up political narrative designed to further people's political goals. it's possible to acknowledge white privilege without supposedly throwing white people to the wolves. we know the reason why white people are poor and it's just as important as the poverty among black people. but we can't fight institutional racism against whites because there isn't none. we can't fight job discrimination against whites because there simply is none. how are white people losing when we fight racism on this front? i can assure you not a single person for affirmative action is against reducing poverty for white people as well. to say that is a lie steeped in race politics. we must fight for the better treatment of minorities just as we must fight for the reduction of poverty of all american people. it's not an isolated issue. it's the result of a capitalist system run by oligarchs.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34660046]that's not how likelyhood works its not "more white people got scholarships", its "white people had a BETTER CHANCE of getting a scholarship"[/QUOTE] They have a better chance because there's more of them. If you have 100 objects in a room, and you're blindfolded, and some of the objects are painted white, blue, red, green. 72% are white, 16% are blue, 8% are red, and 4% are green. You're supposed to pick, let's say, 10 of them. Of course the white objects are going to have a better chance of being picked. This is, of course, unless my understanding of probability is flawed. By the way you say, the guy should pick a few of them blind folded, then go find blue, red, and green objects and pick them just to make them feel better.

[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660073]They have a better chance because there's more of them. If you have 100 objects in a room, and you're blindfolded, and some of the objects are painted white, blue, red, green. 72% are white, 16% are blue, 8% are red, and 4% are green. You're supposed to pick, let's say, 10 of them. Of course the white objects are going to have a better chance of being picked. This is, of course, unless my understanding of probability is flawed. By the way you say, the guy should pick a few of them blind folded, then go find blue, red, and green objects and pick them just to make them feel better.[/QUOTE] uh people don't pick scholarships randomly.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660063]i don't understand this conception that we are just helping a specific race. that's a made up political narrative designed to further people's political goals. it's possible to acknowledge white privilege without supposedly throwing white people to the wolves. we know the reason why white people are poor and it's just as important as the poverty among black people. but we can't fight institutional racism against whites because there isn't none. we can't fight job discrimination against whites because there simply is none. how are white people losing when we fight racism on this front? i can assure you not a single person for affirmative action is against reducing poverty for white people as well. to say that is a lie steeped in race politics.[/QUOTE] i'm not saying that people for affirmative action are against helping whites, i'm saying they should be focusing on helping the poor rather than the poor of a particular race. why can we not fight institutional racism (against black people, i never said there was any racism against white people) and get rid of the issue rather than adding advantages to try and balance things out without addressing the root of the issue? but you said we aren't helping a specific race so i'm guessing that i'm missing something. how does affirmative action not help a specific race?

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660063] i can assure you not a single person for affirmative action is against reducing poverty for white people as well. to say that is a lie steeped in race politics. [/QUOTE] "You don't agree with me, you're a racist and a liar and no one should pay attention to what you say" Wow, I didn't know Al Sharpton was on Facepunch!

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34659995] and why race specific scholarships? instead of giving students an edge based on race to counteract institutionalized racism, fix the institution by getting rid of the racism and racist policies, rather than giving people an edge based on their race in an attempt to sidestep the issue and just counterbalance whatever racism they'll face later on.[/QUOTE] this is an excellent question. unfortunately government can't legislate scholarships to be more equal for a variety of reasons. everyone would prefer that the institution be fixed but that's not simple even in the slightest. remember the conflict over the institution of slavery? the institution of segregation still exists as a de facto policy.

[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660073]They have a better chance because there's more of them. If you have 100 objects in a room, and you're blindfolded, and some of the objects are painted white, blue, red, green. 72% are white, 16% are blue, 8% are red, and 4% are green. You're supposed to pick, let's say, 10 of them. Of course the white objects are going to have a better chance of being picked. This is, of course, unless my understanding of probability is flawed. By the way you say, the guy should pick a few of them blind folded, then go find blue, red, and green objects and pick them just to make them feel better.[/QUOTE] um ok no i'm sorry i don't think you're quite understanding this its not "out of a room full of 100 people, 60 students who got a scholarship were white", its "of 100 white students, 80 got scholarships, while out of 100 black students, only 30 got scholarships" are you starting to get this [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660127]"You don't agree with me, you're a racist and a liar and no one pay attention to what you say" Wow, I didn't know Al Sharpton was on Facepunch![/QUOTE] um wtf?

[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660127]"You don't agree with me, you're a racist and a liar and no one pay attention to what you say" Wow, I didn't know Al Sharpton was on Facepunch![/QUOTE] sorry for not agreeing with the notion that people for affirmative action are somehow against white people. and Al Sharpton has done a whole lot more for white americans than you have so i wouldn't use his name as an insult.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34659901]you're confusing the individual and the institution. you can't say that you'd be better off if you were black because we know for a fact that isn't true. black people have less credit just on the notion of their skin colour and black people don't get accepted for jobs as quick as white people. no-one's telling you anything, we're talking about the western institution and the system set up to benefit only the majority population IE white people and no-one else. don't blame anyone but yourself for completely misunderstanding what anyone is saying. when we talk about white privilege we're not saying "oh your white that means you have it better than anyone", absolutely not. what we are saying is that there's a system and an institution which favours one group of people over the other and that needs to change. you might not see it that way but you aren't black and you obviously have not read the certifiable research done into it. you can rant and say shit all you want but they are empty ignorant words that don't mean anything. that's why i ignored it. [editline]11th February 2012[/editline] people are doing that and you're dismissing it.[/QUOTE] The individual and the institution? How do you get that from what you quoted. I stated that I've been poor for my entire life but not once offered the extra opportunities others receive. I'm saying that if I was black I would have a better chance at getting a scholarship, my average was a 86% when I graduated. The system is not set up to just make one race successful, that's just empty talk that's been said over and over for the last few years to help people cast blame onto the government. Tax money goes towards advancing the lives of minorities, tax money goes towards helping them get on their feet, tax money goes towards creating some lower level jobs that can be filled. But tax money does not go towards assisting students who are apart of the struggling majority because they haven't gone through enough oppression to earn help. I know that white people score a better credit then black people, but we have no control over that. That is done by the banks and using statistics to see how often a person who fits this category pays back the money. That isn't my fault. The things I say aren't ignorant. If you would take the time to actually read what I've put, then maybe you'd learn something about how it is from my perspective, being left out of promotions for my skin colour, not being hired because I don't fit a quota and being denied a scholarship when I actually performed better in school then some others and being turned down for scholarships but watching a black kid I grew up with, who handed in nearly none of his work be handed $1500 for university. That is discrimination, you can bitch about your credit score all you want, but I know discrimination when I see it, white people aren't fucking excluded like so many black people believe. [QUOTE=thisispain;34659962]how exactly do we have equality without equalizing one side? we're not giving "a side" an edge because we want to make up for the actions of people, that just shows you don't even know what you are talking about. we're giving people who have less opportunity and power more ways to get out of their situation. do we look at poor people and say they don't deserve anything because the actions that led them to be poor were done by people who were dead generations ago? [editline]11th February 2012[/editline] who the fuck is abusing their position as a race? you're making up this imaginary narrative. no-one is getting ahead at the cost of whites. and you wouldn't think that way unless you believe minorities don't deserve what white people to get. that is a point of view that harbours institutional racism which is well alive today.[/QUOTE] The problem is that you do not understand you are not the only people in those situations, your denying others the opportunity to get out because their ancestors didn't get the same treatment as yours, because our skin isn't as dark as yours. It's discrimination pure and simple, you think the fact that more white people are better off then black people is cause for the entire race to just not get the extra opportunities you do.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34660141]um ok no i'm sorry i don't think you're quite understanding this its not "out of a room full of 100 people, 60 students who got a scholarship were white", its "of 100 white students, 80 got scholarships, while out of 100 black students, only 30 got scholarships" are you starting to get this [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] um wtf?[/QUOTE] Except for the part where out of a room of 100 Americans, 72 are white and 16 are black. Shouldn't whites get more scholarships in that room?

[QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660159]Except for the part where out of a room of 100 Americans, 72 are white and 16 are black. Shouldn't whites get more scholarships in that room?[/QUOTE] literally the second line of my post explicitly says [B]that isn't the case[/B] read my post again and do your best to understand it, maybe sound out the words as you go along

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34660105]i'm not saying that people for affirmative action are against helping whites, i'm saying they should be focusing on helping the poor rather than the poor of a particular race. why can we not fight institutional racism (against black people, i never said there was any racism against white people) and get rid of the issue rather than adding advantages to try and balance things out without addressing the root of the issue?[/QUOTE] we are focused on helping the poor, but some of those poor are poor and underprivileged because of their skin colour. we can't get rid of the issue, the issue exists because institutions are designed to stay. i would love for all of us to join hand-in-hand and wish away institutional racism but people are suffering and we need practical solutions. [QUOTE=Kopimi;34660105]but you said we aren't helping a specific race so i'm guessing that i'm missing something. how does affirmative action not help a specific race?[/QUOTE] we don't live in a bubble. all people benefit from affirmative action.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660133]this is an excellent question. unfortunately government can't legislate scholarships to be more equal for a variety of reasons. everyone would prefer that the institution be fixed but that's not simple even in the slightest. remember the conflict over the institution of slavery? the institution of segregation still exists as a de facto policy.[/QUOTE] yeah i just realized that i'm basically asking for the government to make people not be racist anymore i mean legislature can do a lot to prevent racism but in the end there's a lot of stuff that just falls to human decision and a lot of those decisions can and will be swayed by racism and at that point there's not much else you can do but opt for affirmative action

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34660188]literally the second line of my post explicitly says [B]that isn't the case[/B] read my post again and do your best to understand it, maybe sound out the words as you go along[/QUOTE] Those sound like bullshit statistics that you made up on the spot. Care to cite any respectable references? Also, yeah, sorry about that. I kinda did misunderstand what you said.

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660195]we don't live in a bubble. all people benefit from affirmative action.[/QUOTE] how? [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bel Irkalli;34660202]Those sound like bullshit statistics that you made up on the spot. Care to cite any respectable references? Also, yeah, sorry about that. I kinda did misunderstand what you said.[/QUOTE] wtf no i'm not coming up with any statistics i'm just explaining to you that you're misinterpreting that study that was posted regarding whites having a better chance of getting a scholarship than anyone else, the numbers i used in my post were just an example to demonstrate the scenario

[QUOTE=Gundevil;34660156]The individual and the institution? How do you get that from what you quoted. I stated that I've been poor for my entire life but not once offered the extra opportunities others receive. I'm saying that if I was black I would have a better chance at getting a scholarship, my average was a 86% when I graduated.[/QUOTE] you're confusing the individual and the institution. when people say white people they aren't specifically referring to you. [QUOTE=Gundevil;34660156]The system is not set up to just make one race successful[/QUOTE] oh? all evidence points to the contrary. [QUOTE=Gundevil;34660156]I know that white people score a better credit then black people, but we have no control over that. That is done by the banks and using statistics to see how often a person who fits this category pays back the money. That isn't my fault.[/QUOTE] banks are part of the institution, and again you take it as if people are blaming you, which they aren't. [QUOTE=Gundevil;34660156]The things I say aren't ignorant. If you would take the time to actually read what I've put, then maybe you'd learn something about how it is from my perspective, being left out of promotions for my skin colour, not being hired because I don't fit a quota and being denied a scholarship when I actually performed better in school then some others and being turned down for scholarships but watching a black kid I grew up with, who handed in nearly none of his work be handed $1500 for university. That is discrimination, you can bitch about your credit score all you want, but I know discrimination when I see it, white people aren't fucking excluded like so many black people believe.[/QUOTE] so just because you are unlucky or face adversity it means that affirmative action is wrong? that's called being bitter. people don't get scholarships just by being black, i don't know who told you that but that's a complete lie. there's a lot more to getting a black scholarship. [QUOTE=Gundevil;34660156]The problem is that you do not understand you are not the only people in those situations, your denying others the opportunity to get out because their ancestors didn't get the same treatment as yours, because our skin isn't as dark as yours. It's discrimination pure and simple, you think the fact that more white people are better off then black people is cause for the entire race to just not get the extra opportunities you do.[/QUOTE] first off, i'm white so using the accusatory you is pointless here. and no-one is denying anyone the opportunity. i can't tell if your anecdotes are true and false but we look at statistics and see that black people on average are far less off. [editline]11th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;34660204]how?[/QUOTE] doesn't everyone benefit from less crime, more employment, and more domestic product?

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660133]this is an excellent question. unfortunately government can't legislate scholarships to be more equal for a variety of reasons. everyone would prefer that the institution be fixed but that's not simple even in the slightest. remember the conflict over the institution of slavery? the institution of segregation still exists as a de facto policy.[/QUOTE] So how exactly does this institution of segregation take form? Is it written down in job and scholarship candidate selection guidelines? Or is it more of an individual conscious/subconscious discrimination thing? I'm not trying to create a contradictory argument, just curious.

[QUOTE=Gundevil;34659831]Movies make it so all Europeans are evil just about, not really directed to any one race. [/QUOTE] What movies are you watching

[QUOTE=thisispain;34660290]doesn't everyone benefit from less crime, more employment, and more domestic product?[/QUOTE] i guess in a roundabout sort of manner but i would imagine they would benefit more if everyone in a poor community received the same benefit regardless of race [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=froztshock;34660320]So how exactly does this institution of segregation take form? Is it written down in job and scholarship candidate selection guidelines? Or is it more of an individual conscious/subconscious discrimination thing? I'm not trying to create a contradictory argument, just curious.[/QUOTE] i'm not well researched on the subject but a lot of the time, your chances of getting a job fall to whether or not an interviewer likes you, so if the interviewer thinks you're sub human scum you'll probably be waiting for the call back for a long time

[QUOTE=froztshock;34660320]So how exactly does this institution of segregation take form? Is it written down in job and scholarship candidate selection guidelines? Or is it more of an individual conscious/subconscious discrimination thing? I'm not trying to create a contradictory argument, just curious.[/QUOTE] The latter one

[QUOTE=froztshock;34660320]So how exactly does this institution of segregation take form? Is it written down in job and scholarship candidate selection guidelines? Or is it more of an individual conscious/subconscious discrimination thing? I'm not trying to create a contradictory argument, just curious.[/QUOTE] it all has a relationship to different things. as an example, some people are more poor in general and thus might not be able to afford transportation for employment or education. and black people, on the basis of being poorer than other ethnic groups, suffer more from that. for other things it might be misconceptions about the ethnic group. for instance, the stereotype exists that black people can't pay their bills. a person's credit score is a number that tells a company how reliable a person is when it comes to lending and paying off money. people connect the stereotype with the credit line, and that results in bad credit. [editline]11th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;34660344]i guess in a roundabout sort of manner but i would imagine they would benefit more if everyone in a poor community received the same benefit regardless of race[/QUOTE] well there are more scholarships for poor people than there are scholarships for just black people. i mean the most important scholarships and student loans programs here in the US are available to anyone.

[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;34658231]From where are you drawing this conclusion?[/QUOTE] Maybe read the post you quoted one more time I'm drawing the conclusion based on the big bolded letters in the thing I cited You know, the bit about how white students get twice as many scholarships as non-white students with the same SAT scores [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;34660391] for other things it might be misconceptions about the ethnic group. for instance, the stereotype exists that black people can't pay their bills. a person's credit score is a number that tells a company how reliable a person is when it comes to lending and paying off money. people connect the stereotype with the credit line, and that results in bad credit. [/QUOTE] a low credit score for a while guy is a tough break, a low credit score for a black guy is proof that black people are bad with money this is a cognitive bias that a lot of members of a majority seem to have

You cant fight hate with more hate. Problem solved.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;34659919]um i don't know if you're aware of this or not but there's race specific scholarships my latino and black friends quality for scholarships that i can't even apply for because of my skin color i'm not saying whites are disadvantaged, but affirmative action and other race specific ways to make up for our past are just further separating people. why exactly should i pay for what people i've never met or endorsed did years and years ago before i was born? if you want equality you should work towards equality, not giving one side a new edge in an attempt to make up for the actions of people that have been dead for generations.[/QUOTE] I'm aware of that. While they do qualify for those scholarships, it doesn't mean that they'll automatically receive it by simply saying that they're part of a minority. I thought that Gundevil implied that they received scholarships effortlessly, so I replied to say that there's a process for it, and that most scholarships base it on how much effort you put into your education rather than looking black. If I misinterpreted his statement then I've made a mistake. [editline]12th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=KillerJaguar;34657648]I get tons of scholarship offers because I'm a Hispanic in a STEM major (computer science). Just today, I got an application for a $2,000 one.[/QUOTE] Have you applied for one? If so, were you accepted? Did you find it effortless?

[QUOTE=Lizard Of Guilt;34656808]White people, however, do not have 300 years of oppression behind them. White people don't get written out of history books. White people (by and large) never had to worry about getting lynched. White people don't have to worry about getting represented in media. White people(men in particular) never had to worry about getting a fair wage. White people never have to worry about not being accepted to a good school. White people never had to worry about sitting on the wrong part of the bus. A minority is not a minority because there are less of them in the country. It is because they hold less social power. Most of the Fortune 500 CEOs are white men. Most presidents are white men. Most Congress members are white men.[/QUOTE] what white people? Polish? Irish? Scottish? Russians? Spaniards? I'm Irish and i don't understand where you're coming from. The Irish people(who are white) endured many hundreds of years of oppression and i come on here and see you saying ' White people, however, do not have 300 years of oppression behind them. ' What? That's quite a huge generalization... Plus, the irish weren't the only ones. So you are not really making much sense and are being ignorant

[QUOTE=Lizard Of Guilt;34656808]White people don't get written out of history books.White people don't have to worry about getting represented in media. White people(men in particular) never had to worry about getting a fair wage. White people never have to worry about not being accepted to a good school.[/QUOTE] Alright, while some of your post may have been "true", (although just because things that happened in the past doesn't mean minorities now should be favored) I left in the things you said that are complete bullshit. Whites don't have to worry about a fair wage or a good school? What planet are you from?