Indiana Town Sued for Displaying Cross atop Christmas Tree
76 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Paramud;51526925]Christmas is not a Christian holiday.[/QUOTE]
It's derived from pagan celebrations, yea, but like, Christ is literally in the name.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51527025]You're honestly living under a rock if you haven't realized that there are now two christmases, a secular one and a christian one which share elements but which are distinct and separated.[/QUOTE]
Even if that was true, why would that make it okay for a government entity to promote a Christian tradition?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51527025]You're honestly living under a rock if you haven't realized that there are now two christmases, a secular one and a christian one which share elements but which are distinct and separated.[/QUOTE]
I would say modern Christmas is a consumerist holiday invented by Coca-Cola, with vague religious undertones. I would assume most people that celebrate it do so without much thought into the whole birthday of Jesus thing, but are more so into it for the gift giving and parties. Then you'll have your more religious families that will sing the Jesus songs and go to Christmas mass, etc.
The best thing about Christmas is that it's so flexible, that the true meaning is whatever you choose it to be. But usually revolves around companionship and giving.
[editline]14th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;51527034]Uh, the entire point of the first amendment is to protect against this kind of thing.
The entire decision based around putting a cross on the tree is just completely strange to me. They could've avoided this entire thing by using the much more common secular tradition of a star. By using a cross, it makes it clear that they're making this into a Christian display rather than a Christmas display.[/QUOTE]
No law was made establishing a municipality wide official religion. A wooden T on top of a tree does not oppress non-Christians. I say this as an atheist. A temporary display is different than a permanent display in a town square, say, a statue of the ten commandments in a court house or something.
[QUOTE=viperfan7;51527033]Saying its a christian holiday is simply wrong though as its a holiday adapted from norse paganism in order to better fold the norse people into christianity. So no, it really isn't a christian holiday, it was just co-opted by christians to make the transition from norse paganism to christianity easier for people to grasp[/QUOTE]
and that happened over a thousand years ago. norse paganism lost, no relevant number of people celebrate it as it originally was anymore.
[QUOTE=Paramud;51527041]Even if that was true, why would that make it okay for a government entity to promote a Christian tradition?[/QUOTE]
The tree was on display in a town square. The people of said town probably wished it to be there.
[editline]14th December 2016[/editline]
If residents of other faiths are allowed to display their religious symbols on a public town square, then I see no problem with it. I don't understand why some atheists get so up in arms about it. It's not a [B]law establishing a religion.[/B] In most cases it's a town expressing it's identity. Religion ain't my thing but to me harmless displays add to the community culture. I think it would be cool if other religions expressed themselves publicly as much as the Christian religions do.
These people should be directing their anger at actual issues of separation of church and state, like "In God We Trust." On the money. Not a silly Christmas display. Shit like this is why people don't like atheists.
Seems unnecessary really. I'd understand if they plastered a display spouting blind rhetoric but tbh the cross has arguably become more than just a christian symbol thanks to everyday use in society and culture.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51527065]and that happened over a thousand years ago. norse paganism lost, no relevant number of people celebrate it as it originally was anymore.[/QUOTE]
Which is irrelevant to the fact that it originated as propaganda and is simply not a christian holiday.
If you want an example of an actual christian holiday, take a look at easter.
Somehow i doubt Christians would welcome a big ol' pentagram on top of the Christmas tree.
I'snt it best to keep public property strictly secular?
so if the only reason christmas is a christian holiday is because christ is in the name and it has certain roots to christ
does that mean we should celeberate thor every thursday and not come in to work?
gotta put this symbol of a torture device on my coca-cola holiday tree
[editline]14th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51527107]so if the only reason christmas is a christian holiday is because christ is in the name and it has certain roots to christ
does that mean we should celeberate thor every thursday and not come in to work?[/QUOTE]
i dont know but we should do that anyway
[QUOTE=St33m;51527095]Somehow i doubt Christians would welcome a big ol' pentagram on top of the Christmas tree.
I'snt it best to keep public property strictly secular?[/QUOTE]
Putting a christian decoration on a tree during a christian holiday in a country where people are predominantly christian is reasonable.
Putting a pentagram up there is just trying to be edgy.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51526916]But...
its a
[B]Christ[/B]... mas... tree
as in... a [B]christ[/B]ian holiday
WHAT
the holiday is literally about the cross. Like, the entire point is that it's about Christ. :v:[/QUOTE]
No, it isn’t
its about the festivities of the light...
[QUOTE=MrWhite;51526954]The "Christmas tree" is a pagan symbol that got shoehorned into the holiday some time ago. The Christmas that Americans observe is more of a commercial event than a religious holiday.
Moreover, disestablishment means government institutions should not be allowed to align themselves with any one religion. By displaying a Christian symbol, they are effectively endorsing Christianity over other religions, which is a direct violation -and the entire point- of disestablishment. This lawsuit is completely justified, even if it might seem kind of knee-jerk.[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. If the majority of this community was okay with it, some random asshole walking into it to muddy all of that for monetary gain isn't justified. Just because a town that is predominantly Christian hangs a cross doesn't mean they're saying "our religion is better than yours".
If he had legal reasons, he would have stated what you said. He didn't though, so I don't know why you're defending this guy.
It's the sprit of Christmas guys, why not just give the fellow some gifts for his trouble mind, say a few crosses wrapped up. Maybe a religious book like a bible I think he'll like to read books too. After all its all about giving to one another...
[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51527143]I'm sorry, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. If the majority of this community was okay with it, some random asshole walking into it to muddy all of that for monetary gain isn't justified. Just because a town that is predominantly Christian hangs a cross doesn't mean they're saying "our religion is better than yours".
If he had legal reasons, he would have stated what you said. He didn't though, so I don't know why you're defending this guy.[/QUOTE]
If he had legal reasons he would've sued, which he did, and they agreed that they would have lost, so they conceded.
Yeah, Christmas was not very Christian even from the beginning. It copied pagan customs of celebrating the birth of a God around the Winter solstice in order to make Christianism a bit easier to swallow for them. My family (who is pagan) celebrates Yule and Christmas both at around this time of year because they represent the same thing (rebirth, start of a new cycle of the seasons).
It doesn't really "belong" to any religion at this point but I still don't agree with the need to remove the cross.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51527028]Imagine being this fragile and this much of a whiny crybaby.
It's a fucking cross! Christmas decoration![/QUOTE]
To be honest, its probably not something he actually gives a shit about. More like he just saw an opening to make some money and went with it
Just because you say you care about something doesnt mean you do, you know. This should be obvious after spending any amount of time on the internet.
[QUOTE=Kecske;51527123]Putting a christian decoration on a tree during a christian holiday in a country where people are predominantly christian is reasonable.
Putting a pentagram up there is just trying to be edgy.[/QUOTE]
Putting a cross on top of a christmas tree isn't a thing i don't think. I imagine the Christians were also trying to be edgy.
But i'll temper my participation in this discussion by saying that i don't think this is worth getting worked up over.
[QUOTE=St33m;51527224]Putting a cross on top of a christmas tree isn't a thing i don't think. I imagine the Christians were also trying to be edgy.
But i'll temper my participation in this discussion by saying that i don't think this is worth getting worked up over.[/QUOTE]
I assumed it was some kind of US custom, but apparently putting stars on top of the trees is the norm there too. So you are right that it is indeed unusual.
I'm not American so I don't know how you guys do it but here it's always a star on top, putting a cross there seems like an in your face kind of thing. And with the first amendment and all I feel like it shouldn't be there. Even so the guy sounds like an opportunist.
Also Christmas is paganism stop trying to wordplay it into something else.
Very strange case. Does this mean that Hindu/Muslim/ other symbols are not allowed to be displayed publicly in an Indiana town, even during their respective holidays?
While we are mostly Catholic, nothing like this has ever happened and I'm fairly sure nobody would take offense to Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other symbols being displayed publicly.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51527695]Very strange case. Does this mean that Hindu/Muslim/ other symbols are not allowed to be displayed publicly in an Indiana town, even during their respective holidays?
While we are mostly Catholic, nothing like this has ever happened and I'm fairly sure nobody would take offense to Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/other symbols being displayed publicly.[/QUOTE]
They are not allowed to be funded by the government unless the government can guarantee every other religion equal time and funds.
so they cant.
Also why only the religions you listed? what about satanism, wiccanism, pastafarianism extremist islamism, scientology or others??
Those would be under "others", Blizzerd.
I mean I could list out seven thousand different religions but we'd be here a while.
[QUOTE=Paramud;51526925]Christmas is not a Christian holiday.[/QUOTE]
What's your argument for that?
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51527796]What's your argument for that?[/QUOTE]
Short answer: The Bible directly contradicts the idea of Jesus' birth being in December, Christmas was originally a pagan holiday (see: Yule) co-opted by Christianity to help integrate the barbarians into Christendom, and Jesus himself even commands his followers not to adorn their trees as the pagans do.
Since it has little to do with Christianity and more to do with commercialism and European cultural heritage, many people see it as a secular holiday. From that viewpoint, a Christmas tree in the town square is inclusive of all, but putting a cross on top is representing a specific religious denomination and in violation of the 1st Amendment.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51527796]What's your argument for that?[/QUOTE]
Read the rest of the thread and maybe you'll find out.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51527023]especially in a community as small as this, something as little as a traditional cross on top of the town tree can help give a bit more identity. frankly, this lawsuit has hurt more people than it has helped.[/QUOTE]
I just want to put it on record I've never seen a cross topper on a cristmas tree. The tradition has been a star as far as I've ever seen, so the cross does feel slightly more forcibly religious than public yule decorations tend to go. American christmas is a very public holiday and has been very ingrained into our society with the ideas of snow = fir trees, colorful lights, etc, and it's just a broad tradition to see these decorations about
but a lawsuit through the precedent the guy seems to be trying to set (quite literally 'it triggers me') is silly. The overall sentiment of the cross being a staunch religious symbol and probably unwise to fly as a public entity is understandable, but he chose the wrong angle to press on and is diluting the whole point
[QUOTE=Xonax;51526967]It doesn't matter if Christians and non-Christians celebrate it, it was originally a Christian holiday.
And technically still is, just everyone celebrates it now.
A lot of stuff Christian related has been integrated into our society.[/QUOTE]
Originally a pagan tradition appropriated by christians :^)
[QUOTE=MissingNoGuy;51527143]I'm sorry, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. If the majority of this community was okay with it, some random asshole walking into it to muddy all of that for monetary gain isn't justified. Just because a town that is predominantly Christian hangs a cross doesn't mean they're saying "our religion is better than yours".
If he had legal reasons, he would have stated what you said. He didn't though, so I don't know why you're defending this guy.[/QUOTE]
It's an matter of principle. The man doesn't align himself with the Christian religion, and he shouldn't have to be exposed to its symbolism displayed in public by a governing body. Private institutions can do whatever they want within reason, but government has to abide by relatively strict rules on what they can and can't due. Appealing to a specific religion is a no-no. Appealing to the majority at the expense of the minority is a [i]big[/i] no-no, however trivial. The fact that the town stepped down displays a great respect of the constitution, which I can commend, and the man making such a big deal about seeing a tiny cross on top of a tree does seem kinda dumb, but the fact of the matter is that he has the right under US law to hold government to a certain set of standards.
Political correctness etc. Pub owners in England were told to take down English flags they had up when the football was on since it was upsetting to some people. Probably because they never qualified
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