• Squatters leave house once occupied by soverign citizen; Owner of house afraid of repair costs
    315 replies, posted
This whole conversation: [video=youtube;fibDNwF8bjs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibDNwF8bjs[/video]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;42341284]Who ensures the baker is cooking bread safely and not pissing in the dough? Fuck everything else, where will safety standards be enforced?[/QUOTE] You need a whole government just to do quality assurance on a bakery? Good Christ, talk about overengineering.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;42341310]but there is no organized government, which means instead of doing education to be a doctor (btw no teachers because no state funded education) you are busy paving roads for free[/QUOTE] I'm not advocating yawmwem's philosophy, I am just saying that personal preference dictates more than people are giving credit for in this thread when it comes to why people choose their professions.
yawmwen has a [I]really[/I] warped view on society i mean he actually just sounds like an edgy teen, and his misunderstanding of human nature kind of enforces that.
[QUOTE=Bentham;42341294]Do personal goals and preferences for career choices count for anything? I know people that want to be doctors, I know people who want to be iron-workers, it comes down to preference in addition to the ability to pay for normal expenses and lead a comfortable life. Why don't laws prevent crimes?[/QUOTE] that's my point. people don't become doctors for money(otherwise they would become investment bankers), they want to be doctors. people are driven to do certain things and without that drive we would never have scientists, doctors, engineers, chefs, iron workers, or anything else. and i never said law doesn't prevent crime, i said that if you think the only thing stopping people from burglary is property law then it's a delusion. the legality of an act isn't the primary deciding factor in whether you actually take action or not [QUOTE=Loriborn;42341300]lol doctors are paid well you are insane as the son of a anesthesiologist i should know bakers and doctors exist because there is a [b]demand[/b] for them, hence, capitalism[/QUOTE] they are paid horribly compared to the upper class.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341320]You need a whole government just to do quality assurance on a bakery? Good Christ, talk about overengineering.[/QUOTE] I was mostly looking for a reason to post about bakers pissing there. But a centralised, enforceable safety agency isn't a bad idea really. It ensures everyone is at the same minimum standard rather than being at varying levels of various standards.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;42341338]yawmwen has a [I]really[/I] warped view on society i mean he actually just sounds like an edgy teen, and his misunderstanding of human nature kind of enforces that.[/QUOTE] "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name! Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weaknesses of human nature. Yet, how can any one speak of it today, with every soul in a prison, with every heart fettered, wounded, and maimed?" - emma goldman
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341356]that's my point. people don't become doctors for money(otherwise they would become investment bankers), they want to be doctors. people are driven to do certain things and without that drive we would never have scientists, doctors, engineers, chefs, iron workers, or anything else. and i never said law doesn't prevent crime, i said that if you think the only thing stopping people from burglary is property law then it's a delusion. the legality of an act isn't the primary deciding factor in whether you actually take action or not they are paid horribly compared to the upper class.[/QUOTE] It isn't the primary deciding factor? Can you say that with absolute certainty, as well as with figures to back that up? And for the first point, there is still a financial influence, which is why some people give up their dreams, but I do agree with you about this point.
[QUOTE=Bentham;42341371]It isn't the primary deciding factor? Can you say that with absolute certainty, as well as with figures to back that up?[/QUOTE] i don't really need to, nor want to provide figures, since proving a negative is pretty lame. i'd rather like to see what figures you have that show it [i]is[/i] the primary deciding factor.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341356]that's my point. people don't become doctors for money(otherwise they would become investment bankers), they want to be doctors. people are driven to do certain things and without that drive we would never have scientists, doctors, engineers, chefs, iron workers, or anything else. and i never said law doesn't prevent crime, i said that if you think the only thing stopping people from burglary is property law then it's a delusion. the legality of an act isn't the primary deciding factor in whether you actually take action or not they are paid horribly compared to the upper class.[/QUOTE] who is the upper class then?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341390]i don't really need to, nor want to provide figures, since proving a negative is pretty lame. i'd rather like to see what figures you have that show it [i]is[/i] the primary deciding factor.[/QUOTE] I'm speaking in universal terms. For some, laws prevent their taking certain actions. For others, they don't. That's why I'm asking for some definitive source stating that in all cases, people are influenced by the very same things when it comes to deciding whether or not to commit an act. This isn't a black and white issue, where one thing influences at the same level for all people.
I'm gonna take the total lack of reply as you agreeing that the anarchist system would fail as soon as someone made a power grab. You've not given me any reasons to believe otherwise after all.
Even if humans were naturally altruistic, Communist and Anarchist societies wouldn't work because they are logistically impossible.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341356] they are paid horribly compared to the upper class.[/QUOTE] But paid greatly compared to many in the lower classes. Just because a job isn't making someone millions doesn't mean they're being badly paid.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42339820]lol no it's not. if you think property rights stops burglary or forced relocation you are probably the type of person who thinks that murder laws are the reason people don't go around murdering. [editline]29th September 2013[/editline] or that without the bible we would all be raping each other[/QUOTE] I'll keep saying this each time you bring up morality. Morality is subjective and varies from culture to culture. What would happen in india if all rape laws were abolished? Don't bring up mob justice either because historically mob justice gets either the wrong people killed or doesn't actually do anything. You can't just draw some arbitrary line between whats right and wrong in our current, extremely diverse, society. What is wrong to one culture will be accepted in another (ex Western Europe/America and polygomy vs middle east and polygamy). The only possible way for what you advocate to work is if all of Earths cultures magically amalgamated into one omniculture and we then remove all diversifying factors from our society (if this is what you want then read the short story "Harrison Bergeron")
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341368]"Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name! Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weaknesses of human nature. Yet, how can any one speak of it today, with every soul in a prison, with every heart fettered, wounded, and maimed?" - emma goldman[/QUOTE] attributing a quote to another anarchist doesnt validate your belief or make it any less idealistic point is, there will always be one person, if not many more, that will care about themselves and want to gain advantage over others all it takes is that one person to destroy the entire concept of an anarchist society
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341368]"Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name! Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weaknesses of human nature. Yet, how can any one speak of it today, with every soul in a prison, with every heart fettered, wounded, and maimed?" - emma goldman[/QUOTE] lol this doesnt validate your point at all. Our society is structured on ordered government. We would need to dramatically restructure not only our society, but individual cultures in order to have humanity as a whole accept anarchism. Then, as I said, we would have to remove all our diversifying factors so that a hierarchy doesn't happen again
[QUOTE=hexpunK;42341357]I was mostly looking for a reason to post about bakers pissing there. But a centralised, enforceable safety agency isn't a bad idea really. It ensures everyone is at the same minimum standard rather than being at varying levels of various standards.[/QUOTE] Vountary, market actors will always provide better quality assurance than government organizations, because only the former are subject to competition, market forces, and feel the result of their actions as soon as the market (= everyone) responds. In any case, a government agency that is given special privileges above everyone else will lead to a situation where the regulators fall into the pockets of the regulated. [editline]29th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42341368]"Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name! Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weaknesses of human nature. Yet, how can any one speak of it today, with every soul in a prison, with every heart fettered, wounded, and maimed?" - emma goldman[/QUOTE] I think this one fits better: "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Bastiat
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341450]Vountary, market actors will always provide better quality assurance than government organizations, because only the former are subject to competition, market forces, and feel the result of their actions as soon as the market (= everyone) responds. In any case, a government agency that is given special privileges above everyone else will lead to a situation where the regulators fall into the pockets of the regulated.[/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle]uh the meat packing industry of the 1900s would like to have a word with you[/url] this doesnt even count the multiple other instances in foreign countries and within the US that i would love to bring up
[QUOTE=Loriborn;42341472][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle]uh the meat packing industry of the 1900s would like to have a word with you[/url] this doesnt even count the multiple other instances in foreign countries and within the US that i would love to bring up[/QUOTE] yea caused by capitalism ffs
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341450]"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Bastiat[/QUOTE] yeah except bastiat liked governments and economic systems lol he would never condone or want an anarchist of socialist government
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341481]yea caused by capitalism ffs[/QUOTE] Capitalists are people too :v:
Well it's all very well and fine talking about anarchism and liberty and all these other political philosophies, but I must tend my garden.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42341481]yea caused by capitalism ffs[/QUOTE] what is to stop this from happening in an anarchist system? we stopped this with regulation, you could not in an anarchist system if everyone is dying, how are they going to know its the local meat butcher pissing in the beef and not washing his hands because "he aint gonna get no one sick?" ignorance and laziness exists even in those who have good will
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341450] "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" - Bastiat[/QUOTE] quotes don't do much to back what you are saying.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;42341472][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle]uh the meat packing industry of the 1900s would like to have a word with you[/url] this doesnt even count the multiple other instances in foreign countries and within the US that i would love to bring up[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] which is contrasted with the deeply rooted corruption of people in power.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Sinclair was considered a muckraker, or journalist who exposed corruption in government and business.[/QUOTE] A group of greedy politicians and businesspeople using the special privileges granted by government to screw everyone and make illegitimate money. How does this refute anything I said?
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341515]A group of greedy politicians and businesspeople using the special privileges granted by government to screw everyone and make illegitimate money. How does this refute anything I said?[/QUOTE] yes, he was a journalist, in a capitalistic system, who exposed corruption, and now its (that specific instance) not an issue anymore if this same situation existed in an anarchist system, how would you fix it in that scenario without a government to enforce regulation? [editline]28th September 2013[/editline] also lol it wasnt "special privileges," it was "breaking the law" and they were punished and now we have the FDA did you miss the part where the big bad guys lost to the power of a capitalist government?
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;42341515]A group of greedy politicians and businesspeople using the special privileges granted by government to screw everyone and make illegitimate money. How does this refute anything I said?[/QUOTE] you want me to show you a person who used pure manipulation to get to the top? Its at the tip of my tongue... hmmm.. OH YEAH [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Rasputin"] Grigori Rasputin[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Rasputin"] [/URL] Manipulation will always exist, government tools can make it both easier to do and harder to do however. I don't really see what your point is either because the only way to prevent that is to completely remove greed from the human psyche.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;42341531]yes, he was a journalist, in a capitalistic system, who exposed corruption, and now its (that specific instance) not an issue anymore if this same situation existed in an anarchist system, how would you fix it in that scenario without a government to enforce regulation?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/06/18/sheldon-richman/context-keeping-community-organizing[/url] Social and political change is brought about by people, then a few politicians take the credit.
[QUOTE=JustExtreme;42338716]This kind yeah. The ones that occupy abandoned property that just lies dormant are mostly ok though.[/QUOTE] It's some of the people who hang around them that aren't so nice.
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