Transgender man gives birth in Germany, fights for the right to be called the father. - Polidicks

people who cannot convey their viewpoints without having their heads so far up their own ass that they'd roll down the street if they tripped will not convince anyone you get more flies with honey then vinegar. i guarantee you this thread would've gone a lot better if you weren't hellbent on tearing everyone else apart. like seriously, fuck

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42211580]finding it confusing that a biological woman who wants to be a man would give birth to a child is also transphobic as is wanting a birth certificate to list biological parents you all better check your privileges[/QUOTE] The entire point of gender is that it doesn't have anything to do with if you have a penis or vagina, so viewing giving birth as something "a woman does" contradicts the idea that gender and sex are something that is separate. A man can have a penis, vagina, both, or even neither, as can a woman.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42211744]The entire point of gender is that it doesn't have anything to do with if you have a penis or vagina, so viewing giving birth as something "a woman does" contradicts the idea that gender and sex are something that is separate. A man can have a penis, vagina, both, or even neither, as can a woman.[/QUOTE] So it's wrong for someone to find it confusing? That makes them a bad person, because they were not raised with that kind of awareness? The fact that not everyone sees gender the same way you do means it's fine to assume they're transphobic and not just say, mis-educated? See, a rational person would say "I believe the way your understanding of gender was taught to you is wrong, I see gender as this". Instead Lachz0r goes both guns blazing, assuming everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot, a horrible person, sexist etc. He's not helping anyone by being a douche about his views. The vast majority of people were brought up with a specific understanding of sex and gender, maybe try to take that into account before you go and accuse them of being a bigot.

What happens if two gay men have a baby somehow, maybe through a surrogate mother? What goes on the birth certificate then?

It's been explained multiple times in the 10 pages of this thread, and he's not wrong about anything even if he's a bit angry. And it's unfair to say he's not helping anyone, I'm sure it would be nice to see a supporting view if you were a trans* person reading it in the future to see someone supporting you, even if they're doing it poorly. It's okay to ask if you don't know, and it's wrong to go on a defensive rant when you're called out for saying something transphobic. [editline]16th September 2013[/editline] It's totally fine to say something transphobic or bigoted whatever but when you get called out on it you should learn, maybe ask why it's bad, and try not to do it in the future.

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42211775]He's not helping anyone by being a douche about his views. The vast majority of people were brought up with a specific understanding of sex and gender, maybe try to take that into account before you go and accuse them of being a bigot.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's true. But alot of people stick to what they learned and don't bother to actually be educated on anything. It's incredibly frustrating that the people that want to understand are so hugely outweighed by people being dicks for the sake of being dicks because they don't want to learn. [QUOTE=Jookia;42211797]What happens if two gay men have a baby somehow, maybe through a surrogate mother? What goes on the birth certificate then?[/QUOTE] I would think the surrogate mother.

But he really isn't helping anyone. No-one is receptive to rudeness, and if he wants to convince people to change their minds on this issue, he can't do it the way he's trying to. You don't bring about social change with anger and insults, you bring about social change with empathy and sympathy. Get angry all you want, it's not gonna help in the long run. Name a single bringer of social justice who achieved his goal with rudeness and insults. Compare that to all the people who did so peacefully.

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42211875]But he really isn't helping anyone. No-one is receptive to rudeness, and if he wants to convince people to change their minds on this issue, he can't do it the way he's trying to. You don't bring about social change with anger and insults, you bring about social change with empathy and sympathy. Get angry all you want, it's not gonna help in the long run. Name a single bringer of social justice who achieved his goal with rudeness and insults. Compare that to all the people who did so peacefully.[/QUOTE] Nah, I understand where you are coming from. I don't particularly think it helps but it is a cause of intense frustration when most people don't bother to even consider finding out about what they are arguing against. I think he is just like that. He is right, just blunt and a bit crude about it.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42211386]he's the biological father though[/QUOTE] He's actually the biological mother since he was a woman at the time of birth.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42211386]he's the biological father though, and where are you finding this information on what a german birth certificate is meant to record, and how it defines those terms? honestly just seems like you're being transphobic to me. They allowed it anyways, so obviously you're wrong here.[/QUOTE] He's not the biological father because he's not biologically a man.

Birth certificates aren't about natural parents (at least not in Germany), so what're we arguing about?

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42211978]He's not the biological father because he's not biologically a man.[/QUOTE] His brain is a part of his biology, and he's mentally a man (there are studies showing trans people's brains resemble more the gender they identify with than the one assigned at birth, even at early ages). If his brain is that of a mans, he is biologically a man. Father means a parent who is a man, therefore he is not a mother but a father. Your definition of mother and father are incorrect as defined by German law as evidenced by this persons wishes being granted.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42212010]His brain is a part of his biology, and he's mentally a man (there are studies showing trans people's brains resemble more the gender they identify with than the one assigned at birth, even at early ages). If his brain is that of a mans, he is biologically a man. Father means a parent who is a man, therefore he is not a mother but a father. Your definition of mother and father are incorrect as defined by German law as evidenced by this persons wishes being granted.[/QUOTE] When somebody says "biological father" they mean the person the sperm came from and you damn well know it. The only thing that matters here is whether sex or gender goes on a birth certificate.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;42212040]When somebody says "biological father" they mean the person the sperm came from and you damn well know it. The only thing that matters here is whether sex or gender goes on a birth certificate.[/QUOTE] Mother and father are gendered nouns, though. They don't refer to sex. And it doesn't matter what they mean when they're wrong.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42212010]His brain is a part of his biology[/QUOTE] His psychology isn't.

[QUOTE=Paramud;42212437]His psychology isn't.[/QUOTE] It's a physical difference.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42212526]It's a physical difference.[/QUOTE] You what now? :downs:

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42211851]Yeah, that's true. But alot of people stick to what they learned and don't bother to actually be educated on anything. It's incredibly frustrating that the people that want to understand are so hugely outweighed by people being dicks for the sake of being dicks because they don't want to learn. I would think the surrogate mother.[/QUOTE] At least in the united states, surrogate mothers don't always get recorded on the birth certificate. It really depends state by state though.

[QUOTE=Valnar;42212676]At least in the united states, surrogate mothers don't always get recorded on the birth certificate. It really depends state by state though.[/QUOTE] That sounds a bit odd, doesn't it?

[QUOTE=gokiyono;42212727]That sounds a bit odd, doesn't it?[/QUOTE] Like I said it depends state by state, but here are two websites stating that in Texas and Arkansas the intended parents are the ones put on the birth certificate. Its done to make sure the intended parents don't need to legally adopt the child. [url]http://www.surrogatemotherconnection.com/content/faq/#Arkansas_Law_and_Birth_Certificates[/url] [url]http://www.sharedconception.com/surrogacy-texas[/url] (you may have to search birth certificate on those pages to find it easily) I know those websites aren't law websites or anything like that, but I don't see why they would lie about it.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42212010]His brain is a part of his biology, and he's mentally a man (there are studies showing trans people's brains resemble more the gender they identify with than the one assigned at birth, even at early ages). If his brain is that of a mans, he is biologically a man. Father means a parent who is a man, therefore he is not a mother but a father. Your definition of mother and father are incorrect as defined by German law as evidenced by this persons wishes being granted.[/QUOTE] Do you have any sources for that? Because now you have coloured me interested

[QUOTE=mobrockers;42211978]He's not the biological father because he's not biologically a man.[/QUOTE] Aren't you the one who said rapists are oppressed in an older trans-related thread?

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42213784]Aren't you the one who said rapists are oppressed in an older trans-related thread?[/QUOTE] Does that have anything to do with this?

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42213784]Aren't you the one who said rapists are oppressed in an older trans-related thread?[/QUOTE] What the hell sort of argument is this? This isn't an argument this is just plain out shitposting.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42212010]His brain is a part of his biology, and he's mentally a man (there are studies showing trans people's brains resemble more the gender they identify with than the one assigned at birth, even at early ages). If his brain is that of a mans, he is biologically a man. Father means a parent who is a man, therefore he is not a mother but a father. Your definition of mother and father are incorrect as defined by German law as evidenced by this persons wishes being granted.[/QUOTE] You are just grasping at straws now. Biologically means the way his whole body works, not just brain. And even there you are wrong - his brain is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_gender_differences#Male_vs._female_brain_anatomy] still that of a female[/url].

I think people are right in saying that it's good to have the information there for medical reasons, but father and mother are very loaded terms, so even though you may be technically correct saying this man is the biological mother, it's needlessly confusing. Seems to me the most sensible thing to do would be like people said, to have one field for who provided the egg, one for who provided the sperm, and one for who provided the womb - problem solved. There's no need to bring gendered nouns into it. There'll be even more need for this sort of clarity when new technology allows cis men to provide eggs etc. [QUOTE=gokiyono;42174246]What I am criticising him for is wanting to be a man and still wants to be able to give birth. That doesn't really make sense[/QUOTE] So what? I mean, what are you even arguing for? Obviously he wanted to give birth or he wouldn't have done it. Some standard of what he's "supposed" to want doesn't come into it, he either wanted it or he didn't, and it turns out he did. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd be able to find a fair number of cis men who'd give birth if they could. People don't fit into neat predictable little boxes. [editline]16th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Kefirman;42214122]And even there you are wrong - his brain is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_gender_differences#Male_vs._female_brain_anatomy] still that of a female[/url].[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Causes"]Wouldn't[/URL] [URL="http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full"]be so[/URL] [URL="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UjdCEj-GdOk"]sure about[/URL] [URL="http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html"]that.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42215055] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Causes"]Wouldn't[/URL] [URL="http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full"]be so[/URL] [URL="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UjdCEj-GdOk"]sure about[/URL] [URL="http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html"]that.[/URL][/QUOTE] Thanks for great read. Some trully fascinating stuff there. The difficulty seems to be in such triviality as a "gendered noun". How is that even a problem, I don't understand. It is clear that word "mother" was used as a term for a person who gave birth, and doesn't hold any inherited disrespect to his gender identity. Why was he so upset about it in the first place?

[QUOTE=Kefirman;42215802]Thanks for great read. Some trully fascinating stuff there.[/QUOTE] No problem! [QUOTE=Kefirman;42215802] The difficulty seems to be in such triviality as a "gendered noun". How is that even a problem, I don't understand. It is clear that word "mother" was used as a term for a person who gave birth, and doesn't hold any inherited disrespect to his gender identity. Why was he so upset about it in the first place?[/QUOTE] It's trivial if you've had the luxury of always being gendered correctly; when you haven't it's a pretty big thing. Like I say, "mother" is a pretty loaded term, and I expect it'd feel very wrong for someone who identifies as a man to have that applied to them. Add that to a lifetime of being misgendered and I'm not surprised he wanted to do something about it.

[QUOTE=Paramud;42209009]"It'll make them happy" isn't a good reason to. You can do better than that. A government shouldn't do stuff for the sole purpose of "hey why not it's not like it matters"[/QUOTE] Uhhh what? The most important thing a government can do is make sure its people are happy. Happy citizens are loyal citizens after all. "What's the harm?" is an entirely valid argument because you have yet to provide adequate evidence that the pros will outweigh the cons besides a vague "MEDICAL RECORDS!! BIRTH RECORDS!! DOCTORS NEED IT!" Here's a really simple fucking solution. Omit sex/gendered nouns entirely and call the field "Birthing parent." [editline]16th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=PSI Guy;42211741]people who cannot convey their viewpoints without having their heads so far up their own ass that they'd roll down the street if they tripped will not convince anyone you get more flies with honey then vinegar. i guarantee you this thread would've gone a lot better if you weren't hellbent on tearing everyone else apart. like seriously, fuck[/QUOTE] Maybe he wouldn't have to tear into anyone if the ignorant people in SH did five seconds worth of research on what transgender means, what gender is, what sex is, the gender binary etc. He has explained it entirely, if a bit crassly, and yet you show a profound lack of compassion and understanding for an absolutely trivial change to words on a piece of paper that will give a human being happiness. But then you get unemotional robots like Paramud saying "GOVERNMENT SHOULDN'T MAKE A PERSON HAPPY FOR NO REASON DURR WHY SHOULD THEY MAKE THIS PERSON HAPPY???" The same person who compared transsexualism to furries, mind you.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42211530]Calling a trans* man a gendered noun for a woman is transphobic.[/QUOTE] Or it's just, ya know, ignorant