Transgender man gives birth in Germany, fights for the right to be called the father. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42162059]So let me get this straight: this person has gender identity issues and wants to be considered a man. They then get a sperm donation and give birth to a child, and want to be listed as the biological father...? I think the problem here extends past gender identity, and they may need help.[/QUOTE] So let me get this straight: a man has sexual issues and wants to have sex with other men. Then that person gets another gay man and they want to marry and both be husband...? I think the problem here extends past sexual issues, and they may need help.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42162059]So let me get this straight: this person has gender identity issues and wants to be considered a man. They then get a sperm donation and give birth to a child, and want to be listed as the biological father...? I think the problem here extends past gender identity, and they may need help.[/QUOTE] It all comes down to whether the mother and father spaces on the certificate refer to gender or sex, considering this is an unusual case If the birthing parent wants to be listed as the [B]biological[/B] father however, they are clearly misguided

[QUOTE=Valnar;42161957]You are really missing the point. We all know the definition of mothering. The question is, why does it really matter on the birth certificate.[/QUOTE] Yes it does matter, technically, by having it standardized it would allow for long term tracing of a persons lineage and recognition of one's biological ancestry. A birth certificate should be based on verifiable facts, they could put mother and father on it and refer to biological mother and father rather than parenting role mother and father. [QUOTE=FlakAttack;42162059]So let me get this straight: this person has gender identity issues and wants to be considered a man. They then get a sperm donation and give birth to a child, and want to be listed as the biological father...? I think the problem here extends past gender identity, and they may need help.[/QUOTE] M-preg. Need I say more?

i don't even know how there is even an argument here he gave birth to a kid, [I]GAVE BIRTH[/I] he is the mother (see how dumb this sounds already?) but if he got his wishes and was pronounced the father, who's the biological mother? he's now the father and mother. GENIUS these people want to not be discriminated against, which is fair enough, and i support fair rights for everyone but when they pull this shit they're just asking for discrimination

[QUOTE=Pelican;42162157]he is the mother (see how dumb this sounds already?) but if he got his wishes and was pronounced the father, who's the biological mother?[/QUOTE] His status on a legal level doesn't override the fact he's the biological mother

imagine caring about what someone is called so much that you'll deny them being called it, even if letting them be called it would make them that little bit happier and wouldn't affect you in even the slightest way

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42162413]imagine caring about what someone is called so much that you'll deny them being called it, even if letting them be called it would make them that little bit happier and wouldn't affect you in even the slightest way[/QUOTE] Its like people who don't want gay people to marry.

I just don't get why you're all against calling a man a father but want a man to be called a mother, it really makes no sense and would only cause confusion. Birth certificates are meant to document a birth, and its parents. It's not important to know who birthed it. At all.

you guys are really just arguing for the sake of it you know, you can argue about what is what and why all you want but at some point you just gotta stop for a second and think "is this really worth all the trouble, why does this bother me at all?". why the fuck is what this person wants so important to you? because it goes against definitions? morals? do you think it's icky? what? [B]what exactly is the problem??[/B] please, help me understand why this is a thing to get angry at. [editline]ugh[/editline] it's a fuckin' word, for christ's sake, it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to [I]him[/I], it might seem like an insignifcant, petty thing to you but it obviously matters a lot to this person. can you please, PLEASE just be decent and analyze the ridiculousness of this discussion?

Poor child is only gonna grow up with one parent.

[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42162671] [editline]ugh[/editline] it's a fuckin' word, for christ's sake, it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to [I]him[/I], it might seem like an insignifcant, petty thing to you but it obviously matters a lot to this person. can you please, PLEASE just be decent and analyze the ridiculousness of this discussion?[/QUOTE] He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.

i've always felt politeness to be a virtue and i've never had so much of a problem using different words towards different people if by doing so it will make them feel happier/more comfortable. but i guess not being a dick just doesn't work with some peoples personal taxonomy

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162739]He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.[/QUOTE] Isn't that pretty much exactly what he just said? Except you decided to point out you won't do it for whatever reason despite it being the decent thing to do.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162739]He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.[/QUOTE] that's the thing though, why? i'm trying really hard to find a reason to be an asshole to this man by denying his identity but i literally don't see why

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162739]He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.[/QUOTE] how would you ever know? do you unzip peoples pants and check their genitals if they have a child to determine if you will consider them a mother or father?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42162750]i've always felt politeness to be a virtue and i've never had so much of a problem using different words towards different people if by doing so it will make them feel happier/more comfortable. but i guess not being a dick just doesn't work with some peoples personal taxonomy[/QUOTE] If somebody felt better if I called them God, I wouldn't do it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be shouting "YOU ARE A MOTHER". I would probably opt for the gender-neutral word 'parent'. That one does work with my personal taxonomy, as [i]horrible[/i] as that makes me seem. [editline]11th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Shadaez;42162781]how would you ever know? do you unzip peoples pants and check their genitals if they have a child to determine if you will consider them a mother or father?[/QUOTE] Well because presumably I know who she is, if I don't then I would probably go along with whatever seems the most likely. If what I see is utterly androgenous, then I would opt for 'parent' as well.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162790]If somebody felt better if I called them God, I wouldn't do it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be shouting "YOU ARE A MOTHER". I would probably opt for the gender-neutral word 'parent'. That one does work with my personal taxonomy, as [i]horrible[/i] as that makes me seem.[/QUOTE] Why can't you just use the term they prefer? Like does it take a massive amount of mental strain to use a particular word or something? It's really just the decent thing to do. Gender-neutral stuff is alright if you aren't sure on how someone feels or is, but if you are still using it despite them asking you to refer to them as something out of politeness or a want to feel comfortable with themself it's pretty dickish.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162790] That one does work with my personal taxonomy, as [i]horrible[/i] as that makes me seem.[/QUOTE] You don't have to and it doesn't really matter. He just legally wants to be referred to as the father. Its just some paperwork in some German office so I don't even see a problem.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42162811]You don't have to and it doesn't really matter. He just legally wants to be referred to as the father. Its just some paperwork in some German office so I don't even see a problem.[/QUOTE] Paperwork is paperwork, and I could hardly care less for it. If being registered in the beaurocracy as 'father' makes her happy then sure, go ahead. [QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42162805]Why can't you just use the term they prefer? Like does it take a massive amount of mental strain to use a particular word or something? It's really just the decent thing to do. Gender-neutral stuff is alright if you aren't sure on how someone feels or is, but if you are still using it despite them asking you to refer to them as something out of politeness or a want to feel comfortable with themself it's pretty dickish.[/QUOTE] You all are very righteous in your upholding of transgender comfort, but what about the comfort of people with personal taxonomies? A father in my mind is characterized as either a male who plants a sperm seed, or a male who raises a child. To further elaborate; I wouldn't have a problem with calling her a 'father-figure'. Just not a father. I might as well call my dog a cat.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162739]He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.[/QUOTE] Well thankfully your personal taxonomy has no bearing on how people identify

The only issue I see with this is if having the respective father and mother (sex wise) on file is part of some system that tracks hereditary disorders or something. I'd feel more comfortable myself if that information was on file officially. I'm just spitballing here though and I don't even know if that is a thing. As for just describing him as the father, why not? He identifies as a male and is the legal guardian to a child.

[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42162671]you guys are really just arguing for the sake of it you know, you can argue about what is what and why all you want but at some point you just gotta stop for a second and think "is this really worth all the trouble, why does this bother me at all?". why the fuck is what this person wants so important to you? because it goes against definitions? morals? do you think it's icky? what? [B]what exactly is the problem??[/B] please, help me understand why this is a thing to get angry at. [editline]ugh[/editline] it's a fuckin' word, for christ's sake, it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to [I]him[/I], it might seem like an insignifcant, petty thing to you but it obviously matters a lot to this person. can you please, PLEASE just be decent and analyze the ridiculousness of this discussion?[/QUOTE] The point of a birth certificate is to document a child's birth and include who is the biological mother and father, just because he's become a male doesn't mean that he shouldn't be listed as the biological mother.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;42162858]The only issue I see with this is if having the respective father and mother (sex wise) on file is part of some system that tracks hereditary disorders or something. I'd feel more comfortable myself if that information was on file officially. I'm just spitballing here though and I don't even know if that is a thing. As for just describing him as the father, why not? He identifies as a male and is the legal guardian to a child.[/QUOTE] All you would need to do to fix that issue is add an extra field that specifies the birthing parent.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162739]He/She can call herself whatever she wants, I won't be calling her a 'father'. It just doesn't work with my personal taxonomy.[/QUOTE] so basically you're okay with it... but you're not okay with it if you had an [I]ounce[/I] of empathy and were a teeny bit polite you'd have the decency to respect their gender identity. the fact that you think they're not a "REAL" man/woman/whatever doesn't matter one bit. [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162790]If somebody felt better if I called them God, I wouldn't do it. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be shouting "YOU ARE A MOTHER". I would probably opt for the gender-neutral word 'parent'. [/QUOTE] what's with anti-trans and trans-ignorant posters and making these horrifically stupid hyperbolized bullshit comparisons? like, "well what if i wanted to identify as a LIZARD!!!!" or something. do people who post that shit even think?

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162844]You all are very righteous in your upholding of transgender comfort, but what about the comfort of people with personal taxonomies? A father in my mind is characterized as either a male who plants a sperm seed, or a male who raises a child. [/QUOTE] but he is a male who is raising a child... also your beliefs don't come before human rights.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162844]You all are very righteous in your upholding of transgender comfort, but what about the comfort of people with personal taxonomies? A father in my mind is characterized as either a male who plants a sperm seed, or a male who raises a child. To further elaborate; I wouldn't have a problem with calling her a 'father-figure'. Just not a father. I might as well call my dog a cat.[/QUOTE]Because its entirely wrong. And I won't respect or uphold the comfort of people who hold prejudice views. Just because you may not be Westboro-tier doesn't mean what you're saying is not prejudice.

my personal taxonomy would require me to call most people cunts. but as i am polite, i am willing to forgo adherence to something that is in my head in order to make others feel more comfortable

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42162943]like, "well what if i wanted to identify as a LIZARD!!!!" or something. do people who post that shit even think?[/QUOTE] JSUT CUZ I WANT TO BE A DOLPHIN DEOSNT MEAN I CAN *epic south park reference HAHA*

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42162844]You all are very righteous in your upholding of transgender comfort, but what about the comfort of people with personal taxonomies? A father in my mind is characterized as either a male who plants a sperm seed, or a male who raises a child.[/QUOTE] It's a word that would make this transgender person feel good about themselves when transgender people are already prone to suicide and depression, and you are worried it makes you uncomfortable when it has no real bearing on your life as a whole? I understand that you have that definition, but really. I think the comfort of the person in the story really outweighs your slight discomfort over a word's meaning. [QUOTE]To further elaborate; I wouldn't have a problem with calling her a 'father-figure'. Just not a father. I might as well call my dog a cat.[/QUOTE] That's a terrible analogy. You don't have transpets as far as I know so it likely wouldn't be an issue for them, and even if you could (going along with the silly analogy btw) the right thing is so still use what they prefer. If you are talking literal definitions, then yeah. The words have meanings defined. But this kind of issue throws that up and puts it between legality of it and what the person wishes.

another thing that baffles me is the "i'm okay with calling them *derivative of what they want to be called* but not *actual thing they want to be called.* like, holy shit? okay, sure, we get it. you don't think they're what they say they are. cool. whatever. that doesn't give you an excuse to belittle people. i mean, how does using this word instead of that word affect you in [I]any way at all?[/I] this shit really confuses me, maybe because i was raised to actually accept people for who they are instead of judging people for not being "NORMAL"