Transgender man gives birth in Germany, fights for the right to be called the father. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42163254]Why can't we just be men and women without mixing the two up?[/QUOTE] That's exactly what we're trying to accomplish here.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163263]because men and women are arbitrary terms and you can't fit everyone into neat categories[/QUOTE] man = has a dick woman = has a vagina if you are one of our gender dysmorphic friends who feels they need to take hormone pills to transition to their preferred gender, then our terms change slightly to facilitate our friends' bodily change, not difficult

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163261]are you going to rebut anything? If a cis man has an egg created with his genetics, and another cis man provides the sperm and they are put into a surrogate womans uterus, who is the mother? Why?[/QUOTE] The surrogate is the mother due to they gave birth to the child, the child has 2 biological fathers. Why? It would not mater from my understanding which one of them had a egg created from them, and which one provided the sperm.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163277]man = has a dick woman = has a vagina[/QUOTE] Except this isn't true.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163217]you never cease to make me laugh, keep at it also everyone should just evacuate the thread, the privilege police are here and aren't leaving[/QUOTE] or maybe some people just don't like when other people are assholes for no reason? is that so hard to understand? you can all just post all the pedantic arguments you want but it won't change the fact that you're deliberately being a huge asshole to someone for no reason at all it's just changing a few words when addressing them dude, it's a [I]tiny, minuscule effort[/I] that affects you in no way at all but will bring happiness to the person in question, why is it so hard to be polite? turn me into the annoying "social justice warrior" if you want but all i'm really asking for is for people to be a little more polite [editline]ugh[/editline] but you know, whatever, it's just us bleeding hearts huh? slowly pussifying the world with out political correctness, right?

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163277]man = has a dick woman = has a vagina [/QUOTE] not in every case, you can be female and not have a vagina and be male and not have a penis

The document refers to the [I]BIOLOGICAL[/I] parents. he is the biological [I]MOTHER[/I], no matter how it's twisted or turned. If he was the actual father at birth time then there would've have been a separate biological mother that the baby came out of. The purpose of this case is all kinds of stupid, no matter how tragic it is to be born with the wrong gender.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163277]man = has a dick woman = has a vagina if you are one of our gender dysmorphic friends who feels they need to take hormone pills to transition to their preferred gender, then our terms change slightly to facilitate our friends' bodily change, not difficult[/QUOTE] What the hell are you trying to even accomplish?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163279]The surrogate is the mother due to they gave birth to the child, the child has 2 biological fathers. Why? It would not mater from my understanding which one of them had a egg created from them, and which one provided the sperm.[/QUOTE] so what benefit does having the person who gave birth to the child listed under the mother section on the birth certificate bring other than appease your archaic ideas of parenthood?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163294]What the hell are you trying to even accomplish?[/QUOTE] logic [QUOTE=thisispain;42163287]not in every case, you can be female and not have a vagina and be male and not have a penis[/QUOTE] dunno what planet you're on

[QUOTE=Van-man;42163293]The document refers to the [I]BIOLOGICAL[/I] parents. he is the biological [I]MOTHER[/I], no matter how it's twisted or turned. If he was the actual father at birth time then there would've have been a separate biological mother that the baby came out of. The purpose of this case is all kinds of stupid, no matter how tragic it is to be born with the wrong gender.[/QUOTE] and once again ill raise the point of why its even the state's business to be involved in these things. no-one is hurt or placed in a bad situation if his birth certificate isnt correct according to you, so why is it your business?

[QUOTE=Van-man;42163293]The document refers to the [I]BIOLOGICAL[/I] parents. he is the biological [I]MOTHER[/I], no matter how it's twisted or turned. If he was the actual father at birth time then there would've have been a separate biological mother that the baby came out of. The purpose of this case is all kinds of stupid, no matter how tragic it is to be born with the wrong gender.[/QUOTE] what conditions need to be met to be a biological mother

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163303] dunno what planet you're on[/QUOTE] the planet where congenital disorders exist

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163309]what conditions need to be met to be a biological mother[/QUOTE] giving birth to a baby ??? did you listen at school and/or the birds and bees talk [QUOTE=thisispain;42163311]the planet where congenital disorders exist[/QUOTE] i hope this hope debacle gets to where religion is now: people keep it to themselves and dont involve other people into their personal affairs

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163303]logic dunno what planet you're on[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions"]Earth [/URL] [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163309]what conditions need to be met to be a biological mother[/QUOTE] Giving birth?

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163309]what conditions need to be met to be a biological mother[/QUOTE] Being in genetic lineage with the baby

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163277]man = has a dick woman = has a vagina[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Pelican;42162157]these people want to not be discriminated against, which is fair enough, and i support fair rights for everyone [/QUOTE] You're a joke, lol.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163313]i hope this hope debacle gets to where religion is now: people keep it to themselves and dont involve other people into their personal affairs[/QUOTE]Great, lets take another step towards that by allow him to be listed as the father. That's a great stride towards this goal. Also, religions hardly do that.

you guys are so silly, so it's possible to have two fathers and a mother but having a trans man be listed as a father is TOO MUCH It's also apparently possible to be the mother and father (with another father even) of the child according to you guys, but once again being a trans man and a father WOAHHHHHH

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163313] i hope this hope debacle gets to where religion is now: people keep it to themselves and dont involve other people into their personal affairs[/QUOTE] you can't help yourself it seems to be involved whats the ETA on that evacuation

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163302]so what benefit does having the person who gave birth to the child listed under the mother section on the birth certificate bring other than appease your archaic ideas of parenthood?[/QUOTE] I am saying not about parenthood, but rather by who is actually related to the child. From a social standpoint he is the father, yeah I understood that a while ago and do not argue against that. That does not change the fact that from a legal and biological standpoint he is the mother. [QUOTE=Pelican;42163303]logic dunno what planet you're on[/QUOTE] You can get surgery that will give female dicks , and guys faux vaginas via "penile inversion." Had to actually look up the term for that.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163341]I am saying not about parenthood, but rather by who is actually related to the child. From a social standpoint he is the father, yeah I understood that a while ago and do not argue against that. That does not change the fact that from a legal and biological standpoint he is the mother.[/QUOTE] how are you "biologically" the mother if you donated no genetics to the child and only were the surrogate for another party's egg and sperm? you're not making sense edit: also how is it important in relation to the child since there's no lasting impact on the child based on who pushed it out of them

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163334]you guys are so silly, so it's possible to have two fathers and a mother but having a trans man be listed as a father is TOO MUCH It's also apparently possible to be the mother and father of the child according to you guys, but once again being a trans man and a father WOAHHHHHH[/QUOTE] im still waiting for the answer to my question, its a little weird that suddenly fp has such an emotional attachment to the supposed veracity of a birth certificate, willing to jump through semantic loops and to accomplish what exactly? im still trying to understand what we accomplish by forcing this man's birth certificate to be a certain way

[QUOTE=Valnar;42162118]So let me get this straight: a man has sexual issues and wants to have sex with other men. Then that person gets another gay man and they want to marry and both be husband...? I think the problem here extends past sexual issues, and they may need help.[/QUOTE] Because being gay has anything at all to do with what I was talking about. Wow... this is quite a leap of logic. [QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;42162116]Because of course gender must be so clear-cut. How dare someone take on roles from both genders! Humans are complex. To simplify us is naive. What's the harm here really?[/QUOTE] Ah, but then here's the question: if they're taking on "roles" from both genders, why do they feel the need to specifically identify as the other gender? Why not just be a woman instead who does whatever she wants? You can't have gender identity issues and then not respect societal gender roles at the same time. They are totally opposing ideologies: one implies a more rigid gender system while the other implies flexibility and openness as to what gender means. Naturally trans[I]sexual[/I] would be a whole different ballgame, but then that's not what we're talking about. [QUOTE=Pelican;42163313]i hope this hope debacle gets to where religion is now: people keep it to themselves and dont involve other people into their personal affairs[/QUOTE] I disagree. Discussion is important, even of subjects like this. You can't stop talking about things just because someone's feelings get hurt.

But if women can be fathers that threatens everything I know I mean I hate my mom but will I have to hate my dad too now isn't that misandry help

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163341]That does not change the fact that from a legal and biological standpoint he is the mother.[/QUOTE] no from a legal standpoint hes the father [quote]A spokesman for the Berlin Senate Administration for Internal Affairs said: 'The person in question did not want to appear as a mother but as a father on the birth certificate and that request has been honoured.' [/quote] [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FlakAttack;42163350]You can't have gender identity issues and then not respect societal gender roles at the same time. [/QUOTE] you can't? seems like a lot of people are doing it

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163357]no from a legal standpoint hes the father [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] you can't? seems like a lot of people are doing it[/QUOTE] I should have said should be for the legal. [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163347]how are you "biologically" the mother if you donated no genetics to the child and only were the surrogate for another party's egg and sperm? you're not making sense[/QUOTE] By holding the child within them during the pregnancy they have influence over early development of the child via hormones and the foods they eat.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163377]I should have said should be for the legal.[/QUOTE] let me ask again, under what pre-text do you find yourself willing to make a statement on what is legal when for all intents and purposes this man is the father to their child. this is a question far more important than your useless semantics spiel

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163357]you can't? seems like a lot of people are doing it[/QUOTE] Let's imagine that societal gender roles are meaningless to you and man/woman is just a label. How can you have gender identity issues if [B]you[/B] decided what your roles should or should not be in the first place? To ask it another way: if this were in a vacuum (no assumed roles for either gender, essentially they are same), how would you develop gender identity disorder? There isn't really another gender opposite yours, since they are exactly the same. Now if we're talking sexual identiy ok, there are visible and functional differences, and that makes sense. But gender identity disorder is an affirmation of societal gender roles, not a denial of them.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163387]let me ask again, under what pre-text do you find yourself willing to make a statement on what is legal when for all intents and purposes this man is the father to their child. this is a question far more important than your useless semantics spiel[/QUOTE] Back to [QUOTE=deadoon;42163235]= Effectiveness: Long term value and understandability. Reliability: How accurate the information is. Legitimate reasons; family history and lineage for future reference. [/QUOTE] I already explained it to you, you just ignored it. [QUOTE=FlakAttack;42163399]Let's imagine that societal gender roles are meaningless to you and man/woman is just a label. How can you have gender identity issues if [B]you[/B] decided what your roles should or should not be in the first place? [/QUOTE] Society pushes you towards your "gender role", via attaching stigmas to actions outside it. This keeps you from doing what you want. [QUOTE] To ask it another way: if this were in a vacuum (no assumed roles for either gender, essentially they are same), how would you develop gender identity disorder? There isn't really another gender opposite yours, since they are exactly the same. [/QUOTE] To answer you question, there would be none. Wow! [QUOTE] Now if we're talking sexual identiy ok, there are visible and functional differences, and that makes sense. But gender identity disorder is an affirmation of societal gender roles, not a denial of them.[/QUOTE] Gid is a result of societal gender roles and their rigidity. It can be and usually the result of attempting to deny them.