Transgender man gives birth in Germany, fights for the right to be called the father. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42163399]Let's imagine that societal gender roles are meaningless to you and man/woman is just a label. How can you have gender identity issues if [B]you[/B] decided what your roles should or should not be in the first place?[/QUOTE] Well I think you are saying "What if society didn't have gender roles, like man does this woman does this" in which case yeah, gender wouldn't be as much of an issue and people could just do whatever without it being troublesome and I assume things like transgenderism might not exist if we just did what we wanted irregardless of how we were born and felt. But that didn't happen. We do have gender roles and that isn't just going to stop. Some people can do what they please and be proud of it, but transgender people just want to fit in the role they feel they were born as so they won't feel odd or outcast from how they feel they should act in society. I think I am making a reply to what you are talking about but I'm not sure. Let me know if I am misunderstanding.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163404]Back to I already explained it to you, you just ignored it.[/QUOTE] no you didnt answer the question, i thought i made it very clear that i dont care at all about what is effective and reliable in your view under what pre-text do you find yourself willing to make a statement on this. why is your arbitrary understanding of these two things any reason to involve yourself in the affairs of this person's life and family history and lineage??? you don't even know if the person even keeps records on that.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42163399]Let's imagine that societal gender roles are meaningless to you and man/woman is just a label. How can you have gender identity issues if [B]you[/B] decided what your roles should or should not be in the first place? To ask it another way: if this were in a vacuum (no assumed roles for either gender, essentially they are same), how would you develop gender identity disorder? There isn't really another gender opposite yours, since they are exactly the same. Now if we're talking sexual identiy ok, there are visible and functional differences, and that makes sense. But gender identity disorder is an affirmation of societal gender roles, not a denial of them.[/QUOTE] It happens because we do live in a society that has genders with different gender roles and expectations, if all was perfect no one would really give a shit and we'd all do whatever the hell we want with no consequence.

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163303]logic dunno what planet you're on[/QUOTE] we are on planet earth, where humans with empathy treat each other in a kind way. we are not from planet vulcan where only logic applies

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42163399]Let's imagine that societal gender roles are meaningless to you and man/woman is just a label. How can you have gender identity issues if [B]you[/B] decided what your roles should or should not be in the first place? To ask it another way: if this were in a vacuum (no assumed roles for either gender, essentially they are same), how would you develop gender identity disorder? There isn't really another gender opposite yours, since they are exactly the same. Now if we're talking sexual identiy ok, there are visible and functional differences, and that makes sense. But gender identity disorder is an affirmation of societal gender roles, not a denial of them.[/QUOTE] i really do not understand your question. gender identity disorder is what we call a huge group of various conditions, and we do that in order to provide medical or psychological treatment. its not a specific thing, if someone has gid but doesnt want to act within their preferred gender role then it might be that they have body dysmorphia which we consider a mental disorder

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163421]no you didnt answer the question, i thought i made it very clear that i dont care at all about what is effective and reliable in your view under what pre-text do you find yourself willing to make a statement on this. [/QUOTE] And you ignore what I said. [QUOTE] why is your arbitrary understanding of these two things any reason to involve yourself in the affairs of this person's life [/QUOTE] I am not involving myself in their lives am I? I am questioning the reasoning. [QUOTE] and family history and lineage??? you don't even know if the person even keeps records on that.[/QUOTE] Who said he has to keep track of that? I was inferring it would be something far down the line, maybe as a method of searching for ones "origins". If a document is not good at portraying information clearly, it is not effective. If the information on a document is not accurate, it is not reliable. It is that simple.

hell i think the guy should be able to do whatever he wants so, if he wants to be referred to as a man and be called the father more power to him, has nothin' to do with me

[QUOTE=Pelican;42163277]man = has a dick woman = has a vagina [/QUOTE] you know i actually thought like this once, then someone took the time to explain to me what being trans-gender is all about, when you understand what these guys and girls are going through its a lot harder to be a prick about their situation.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163463]And you ignore what I said. [/QUOTE] you didnt answer the question ??1/1/1/ are you simply incapable of explaining it? why is the birth certificate's effectiveness or reliability important to you, enough to have an opinion on what should be on his birth certificate. its a very simple question

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163480]you didnt answer the question ??1/1/1/ are you simply incapable of explaining it? why is the birth certificate's effectiveness or reliability important to you, enough to have an opinion on what should be on his birth certificate. its a very simple question[/QUOTE] Because it is a legal document.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163484]Because it is a legal document.[/QUOTE] thats not an answer if you were worried about the legality of the document you wouldn't be saying shit because it's 100 legal under german law. so the concept of legality is obviously not something you care about. why is it that the alleged illegitimacy of this document is important to you? are you losing something? is german society losing something? what are your grounds

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163463]Who said he has to keep track of that? I was inferring it would be something far down the line, maybe as a method of searching for ones "origins". If a document is not good at portraying information clearly, it is not effective. If the information on a document is not accurate, it is not reliable. It is that simple.[/QUOTE] The person who gave birth to you has no relevance in any of these cases. In a case of a surrogate birth with external eggs and sperm, I don't see why at all it's important or why you think they should be listed as the mother. They really have nothing to do with the origin of the child, the information on the document would be LESS accurate and not reliable.

why does the gender matter when it comes to a birth certificate a birth certificate should say who provided the dna. i don't think it's relevant what the person identifies as because the document is meant to say "these two people provided dna and made this baby". call the person a father or a mother or whatever the fuck they want to be called, just as long as the document actually has the information that's needed maybe just have the fucking document list "parents" (ie this dude) and then who provided the sperm and egg. you get to be referred to in a gender-neutral way while information that may be needed for the kid's medical history isn't compromised fuck this is a stupid debate

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163377]By holding the child within them during the pregnancy they have influence over early development of the child via hormones and the foods they eat.[/QUOTE] "Biological" is typically being related by blood/genetics A surrogate is just a surrogate

[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42163503]why does the gender matter when it comes to a birth certificate a birth certificate should say who provided the dna. i don't think it's relevant what the person identifies as because the document is meant to say "these two people provided dna and made this baby". call the person a father or a mother or whatever the fuck they want to be called, just as long as the document actually has the information that's needed maybe just have the fucking document list "parents" (ie this dude) and then who provided the sperm and egg. you get to be referred to in a gender-neutral way while information that may be needed for the kid's medical history isn't compromised fuck this is a stupid debate[/QUOTE] i don't see why this is a difficult concept at all

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163334]you guys are so silly, so it's possible to have two fathers and a mother but having a trans man be listed as a father is TOO MUCH It's also apparently possible to be the mother and father (with another father even) of the child according to you guys, but once again being a trans man and a father WOAHHHHHH[/QUOTE] And it is also possible to have two mothers and a father. But on paper your mother is the person who you were born from. [editline]Fneh[/editline] They should change it to "Born by:"

It's almost as if these documents are... completely fucked up and outdated and should be fixed!

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163499]thats not an answer if you were worried about the legality of the document you wouldn't be saying shit because it's 100 legal under german law. so the concept of legality is obviously not something you care about. why is it that the alleged illegitimacy of this document is important to you? are you losing something? is german society losing something? what are your grounds[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing the legality of the document, I am arguing that the information should be clear and accurate. Allowing one to put whatever they want on it makes it less clear especially if you can switch the fields around at will. [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163500]The person who gave birth to you has no relevance in any of these cases. In a case of a surrogate birth with external eggs and sperm, I don't see why at all it's important or why you think they should be listed as the mother. They really have nothing to do with the origin of the child, the information on the document would be LESS accurate and not reliable.[/QUOTE] They do not have anything to do with the origin of the child? Where was that child until it was born? Having it on the certificate can also be considered a way of saying: "this person contributed to the creation of this child." [QUOTE=Laputa;42163507]"Biological" is typically being related by blood/genetics A surrogate is just a surrogate[/QUOTE] The surrogate had control over it's biological functions despite being unrelated, until we have artificial wombs, biological mother should be accurate enough, then replaced with birth origin, and you can even include the company name on there. [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163538]It's almost as if these documents are... completely fucked up and outdated and should be fixed![/QUOTE] Pretty much.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;42163518]And it is also possible to have two mothers and a father. But on paper your mother is the person who you were born from. [editline]Fneh[/editline] They should change it to "Born by:"[/QUOTE] Surrogates aren't genetic parents, do they get listed as the mum? I hope not

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163559]I'm not arguing the legality of the document, I am arguing that the information should be clear and accurate. Allowing one to put whatever they want on it makes it less clear especially if you can switch the fields around at will. They do not have anything to do with the origin of the child? Where was that child until it was born? Having it on the certificate can also be considered a way of saying: "this person contributed to the creation of this child." The surrogate had control over it's biological functions despite being unrelated, until we have artificial wombs, biological mother should be accurate enough, then replaced with birth origin, and you can even include the company name on there. Pretty much.[/QUOTE] except as psi guy said, who provided the DNA is still on the birth certificate so what's inaccurate?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163559]I'm not arguing the legality of the document, I am arguing that the information should be clear and accurate. Allowing one to put whatever they want on it makes it less clear especially if you can switch the fields around at will.[/QUOTE] german issuer of document disagrees apparently is there really no reason beyond being uber-pedantic? im dying here

[QUOTE=Jojje;42163469]hell i think the guy should be able to do whatever he wants so, if he wants to be referred to as a man and be called the father more power to him, has nothin' to do with me[/QUOTE] But you are missing out on pedantic arguments about how someone you will never meet wants himself to be considered a father instead of a mother.

[QUOTE=Laputa;42163560]Surrogates aren't genetic parents, do they get listed as the mum? I hope not[/QUOTE] Well by definition the mothered the child. I'd say have an extra section for the optional "father 2" spot if there is one. Wait shit what about three parent embryos... I think we have another problem now. Pretty much, tech and such has advanced so fast language and documentation is having a hard time keeping up combine with personal interpretations and all the conflicts between them. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;42163569]except as psi guy said, who provided the DNA is still on the birth certificate so what's inaccurate?[/QUOTE] What is fathering a child? [QUOTE=thisispain;42163571]german issuer of document disagrees apparently is there really no reason beyond being uber-pedantic? im dying here[/QUOTE] Is wanting information to be clear and accurate really that bad? Based on how you react to it I'd say so. To put it into perspective you are disagreeing with legal documents being clear and accurate. Can you really back that up logically? [QUOTE=Raidyr;42163588]But you are missing out on pedantic arguments about how someone you will never meet wants himself to be considered a father instead of a mother.[/QUOTE] Isn't the internet grand?

Frankly, you're just using pedantry as a mask for bigotry.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163630]Frankly, you're just using pedantry as a mask for bigotry.[/QUOTE] Is it bigotry to call a person one thing publicly, while another by a verifiable non-fluctuating characteristic. By that logic it would be bigoted for his doctor to mark him as female for documentation purposes.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163619] Is wanting information to be clear and accurate really that bad?[/QUOTE] do i think wanting arbitrary information on dubious grounds while intruding on someone's life is bad? [QUOTE=deadoon;42163619]To put it into perspective you are disagreeing with legal documents being clear and accurate. Can you really back that up logically? [/QUOTE] this legal document is clear and accurate because this man is the father, and unlike the people in this thread i have no malevolent intent on "correcting" the birth certificate.

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163640]do i think wanting arbitrary information on dubious grounds while intruding on someone's life is bad? this legal document is clear and accurate because this man is the father, and unlike the people in this thread i have no malevolent intent on "correcting" the birth certificate.[/QUOTE] How is he the father, he did not father the child. It isn't arbitrary, it is verifiable and confirmed. In what way is documenting all the factors of a child's birth on their birth certificate intrusive? What malevolent intent do I have?

I've literally never ever in my lifetime heard "mothered" used in this way (to give birth). Mothering a child to me is basically a woman raising a kid. Googles definition even calls this definition of the word to be "dated". Nowhere on the birth certificate does it indicate that they're using this definition of the word, either, as far as I know.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163648]How is he the father, he did not father the child. It isn't arbitrary, it is verifiable and confirmed. In what way is documenting all the factors of a child's birth on their birth certificate intrusive? What malevolent intent do I have?[/QUOTE] he is the father because hes a male and chooses to identify as the father, its intrusive because you are denying this. then what intent do you have?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163648]How is he the father, he did not father the child. It isn't arbitrary, it is verifiable and confirmed. In what way is documenting all the factors of a child's birth on their birth certificate intrusive? What malevolent intent do I have?[/QUOTE]The "fathering" doesn't matter. Clearly not to Germany, and not to anyone who has kept their head from their ass. He is the father, that is how he identifies, and that is all that matters. What an actual medical practitioner does and needs to know is a WILDLY different thing that has nothing to do with this.