Transgender man gives birth in Germany, fights for the right to be called the father. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163658]I've literally never ever in my lifetime heard "mothered" used in this way (to give birth). Mothering a child to me is basically a woman raising a kid. Googles definition even calls this definition of the word to be "dated". Nowhere on the birth certificate does it indicate that they're using this definition of the word, either, as far as I know.[/QUOTE] I was using it as it is the best word for what I am describing, would you rather me say something like "birth mother"? [QUOTE=thisispain;42163672]he is the father because hes a male and chooses to identify as the father, its intrusive because you are denying this. then what intent do you have?[/QUOTE] He is female but identifies as a man. Male is sex, man is gender. Do not confuse them, it makes it seem like you do not know what you are talking about. My intent has been stated to you three time effectiveness and reliability of documentation. You shouldn't cover up facts in your medical records because of personal feelings, they may be relevant. If the mother and father tags are not reliable a doctor will have to pull up the parents medical records as well to confirm them, and would likely leave them in your records anyways. so why not have them there from the start?

why cant he just be birth father?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163685]I was using it as it is the best word for what I am describing, would you rather me say something like "birth mother"?[/QUOTE]No one cares about the biology of the situation except for you. Not any of us, not the child's parents, not the government that is responsible for the birth certificate, no one but you.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163701]No one cares about the biology of the situation except for you. Not any of us, not the child's parents, not the government that is responsible for the birth certificate, no one but you.[/QUOTE] Maybe you should read the front page. I just realized I could just back up my argument with the fact that father is defined as male... Shit.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;42160417]I don't wanna come across as insensitive here, but since he gave birth to it, doesn't that mean he's the biological mother by definition?[/QUOTE] Yes but gender is just a social construct :downs:

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163685]My intent has been stated to you three time effectiveness and reliability of documentation. You shouldn't cover up facts in your medical records because of personal feelings, they may be relevant. If the mother and father tags are not reliable a doctor will have to pull up the parents medical records as well to confirm them, and would likely leave them in your records anyways. so why not have them there from the start?[/QUOTE]They're not covering up anything. You make it seem like they're guilty of some crime they are trying to hide evidence of. Your understanding of what you are even aiming for is flawed at best. Clearly the German government has said that there is no issue here with clarity of effectivity or honesty or any crap you've come up with. Why is the doctor going to go through all this trouble if the doctor can just ask the parents themselves? I really don't know of any time in my life my parents have had to give a doctor my birth certificate for them to be able to carry out any procedures or anything whatsoever. And I imagine most doctors would be informed enough to go "Ohh, alright. Good for you." and not waste their time and energy going "NO NO NO! THIS IS ALL WRONG YOU HAVE TO FIT MY OUTDATED AND PREJUDICE WORLD VIEWS!" [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;42163720]Maybe you should read the front page.[/QUOTE] [quote]A spokesman for the Berlin Senate Administration for Internal Affairs said: 'The person in question did not want to appear as a mother but as a father on the birth certificate and that request has been honoured.'[/quote]

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163744]They're not covering up anything. You make it seem like they're guilty of some crime they are trying to hide evidence of. Your understanding of what you are even aiming for is flawed at best. Clearly the German government has said that there is no issue here with clarity of effectivity or honesty or any crap you've come up with. Why is the doctor going to go through all this trouble if the doctor can just ask the parents themselves? I really don't know of any time in my life my parents have had to give a doctor my birth certificate for them to be able to carry out any procedures or anything whatsoever. And I imagine most doctors would be informed enough to go "Ohh, alright. Good for you." and not waste their time and energy going "NO NO NO! THIS IS ALL WRONG YOU HAVE TO FIT MY OUTDATED AND PREJUDICE WORLD VIEWS!"[/QUOTE] Having information that cannot have fluctuations is better than having a spectrum of answers, hence why the metric system is better than the imperial system. If you removed personal statements from the matter and had the information automatically printed out based on who the parents were, there would likely be this argument in reverse. And you purposefully ignore everything but the op, including those landslide voted posts that disagree with the statement you made.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163685] Male is sex, man is gender. Do not confuse them, it makes it seem like you do not know what you are talking about.[/QUOTE] obviously i meant man not male because i said a male ive used male and man so many times they dont even mean anything any more [QUOTE=deadoon;42163685]My intent has been stated to you three time effectiveness and reliability of documentation.[/QUOTE] is that really just it, you are offended from a clerical standpoint? this is the most boring reason on the planet, who the hell even cares this sucks ass

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163755]Having information that cannot have fluctuations is better than having a spectrum of answers, hence why the metric system is better than the imperial system.[/QUOTE]This has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about. Who gives a fuck about the metric system and the imperial system in this debate? [QUOTE]If you removed personal statements from the matter and had the information automatically printed out based on who the parents were, there would likely be this argument in reverse.[/QUOTE]What? So you're saying you'd be arguing that he is the father and we'd be arguing that he is the mother if a machine just made the determination automatically? The fuck are you on?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163755]Having information that cannot have fluctuations is better than having a spectrum of answers, hence why the metric system is better than the imperial system. [/QUOTE] that doesnt even make sense

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163762]obviously i meant man not male because i said a male ive used male and man so many times they dont even mean anything more is that really just it, you are offended from a clerical standpoint? this is the most boring reason on the planet, who the hell even cares this sucks ass[/QUOTE] You finally get it, conratulations. No seriously, congratulations. I Actually like the debating on subjects like this usually, it is funny and entertaining when people fail to recognize that my point of objection is actually quite minor and make it out to be much larger than it is. [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163764]This has literally nothing to do with what we are talking about. Who gives a fuck about the metric system and the imperial system in this debate? What? So you're saying you'd be arguing that he is the father and we'd be arguing that he is the mother if a machine just made the determination automatically? The fuck are you on?[/QUOTE] Personal beliefs Vs determinable facts, one is a variable, while the other is determined and verifiable. No, that you guys would be arguing that he should be considered the father on paper, while I would be arguing they did it right. [QUOTE=thisispain;42163765]that doesnt even make sense[/QUOTE] Imperial has fluctuations in it over time due to it's interpretation. Metric is standardized and is based on physical properties, make sense?

[QUOTE=thisispain;42163765]that doesnt even make sense[/QUOTE]I don't recall the father ever identifying as a yard stick or something. [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;42163777]You finally get it, conratulations. No seriously, congratulations. I Actually like the debating on subjects like this usually, it is funny and entertaining when people fail to recognize that my point of objection is actually quite minor and make it out to be much larger than it is.[/QUOTE]So basically you've been arguing just for the sake of arguing? You've just been trolling this whole time?

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163777] I Actually like the debating on subjects like this usually, it is funny and entertaining when people fail to recognize that my point of objection is actually quite minor and make it out to be much larger than it is.[/QUOTE] epic troll, here i thought you were saying something worth reading my bad!

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163780]I don't recall the father ever identifying as a yard stick or something. [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] So basically you've been arguing just for the sake of arguing? You've just been trolling this whole time?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thisispain;42163789]epic troll, here i thought you were saying something worth reading my bad![/QUOTE] Not trolling, I just like debating, if I didn't I wouldn't have drawn it out this long.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163538]It's almost as if these documents are... completely fucked up and outdated and should be fixed![/QUOTE] Yeah, they're not updated for people who are biological mothers but want the information to be inaccurate. Being a mother doesn't necessarily mean you're a woman, FYI. It just means you provided eggs for the pregnancy rather than sperm.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163777]Personal beliefs Vs determinable facts, one is a variable, while the other is determined and verifiable.[/QUOTE]You have literally no clue what you are even talking about here, do you. You do not have any clue about gender or the legality of the situation or anything, do you? You're just a bigot shouting in the dark. [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Paramud;42163807]Yeah, they're not updated for people who are biological mothers but want the information to be inaccurate. Being a mother doesn't necessarily mean you're a woman, FYI. It just means you provided eggs for the pregnancy rather than sperm.[/QUOTE]So then how do you respond to this? [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163261]If a cis man has an egg created with his genetics, and another cis man provides the sperm and they are put into a surrogate womans uterus, who is the mother? Why?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163804]Not trolling, I just like debating, if I didn't I wouldn't have drawn it out this long.[/QUOTE] There is a debating forum for debating you know. Could do it there instead of in a news thread for the sake of stretching a debate out to get your kicks or whatever you do.

[QUOTE=Paramud;42163807]Yeah, they're not updated for people who are biological mothers but want the information to be inaccurate. Being a mother doesn't necessarily mean you're a woman, FYI. It just means you provided eggs for the pregnancy rather than sperm.[/QUOTE] Being a mother literally just means to be a woman and raise a child, nothing more. By your definition it's possible for a male sexed person to be a mother and that's really stupid. To be a biological mother would be to be a woman and have your genetics contribute to a child. It will be possible soon to have two female sexed individuals to have a child together, both providing genetic material. It would be absurd to call one a "biological father". Your views on parenthood are archaic.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163815]You have literally no clue what you are even talking about here, do you. You do not have any clue about gender or the legality of the situation or anything, do you? You're just a bigot shouting in the dark.[/QUOTE] I understand gender identity. Facts: Person A is female. Person A gave birth to a child. Hence I would say Person A is the mother. Is this really that difficult to understand? replace person A with anybody that fits both those criteria and bang. I think there may be a definition disconnect now that I read the post above me...

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163864]I understand gender identity. Facts: Person A is female. Person A gave birth to a child. Hence I would say Person A is the mother. Is this really that difficult to understand? replace person A with anybody that fits both those criteria and bang.[/QUOTE]Thus proving you do not understand the situation whatsoever.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163870]Thus proving you do not understand the situation whatsoever.[/QUOTE] So there should be no definition standardization for the purposes of recording of information? That is a great way to have misinterpretations later. Here's a tip, the part after gender identity, is unrelated to it.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163090]He is a man raising a child. Male is sex, man is gender. You are purposefully misinterpreting him to try and make a point.[/QUOTE] Just so everyone knows, female and male are used as both gender and sex as well.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163888]Just so everyone knows, female and male are used as both gender and sex as well.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male[/url] Wrong.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163880]So there should be no definition standardization for the purposes of recording of information? That is a great way to have misinterpretations later. Here's a tip, the part after gender identity, is unrelated to it.[/QUOTE] There's a standardization and you're the one misinterpreting it, it doesn't define mother as having a vagina and popping a baby out of it. The law agrees considering that they were granded the right to be listed as the father. [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;42163893][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male[/url] Wrong.[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/gCzBm02.png[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/Rlv0iyp.png[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/qi4ZBwr.png[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/uYmEpJN.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163898]There's a standardization and you're the one misinterpreting it, it doesn't define mother as having a vagina and popping a baby out of it. The law agrees considering that they were granded the right to be listed as the father.[/QUOTE] Where is the standardization? The situation specifically placed the persons choice onto the paper rather than a something determined through evidence. Note before you claim bigotry, choice refers to him telling the doctor to put his name in the fathers spot. In social sciences. Identifies as. Main usage and definition is based upon physiological status

[QUOTE=deadoon;42163927]Where is the standardization? The situation specifically placed the persons choice onto the paper rather than a something determined through evidence. Note before you claim bigotry, choice refers to him telling the doctor to put his name in the fathers spot.[/QUOTE] evidence? the person had a child and is a man "a man in relation to his natural child or children." so he's a father [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=deadoon;42163927]Main usage and definition is based upon physiological status[/QUOTE] you just spent 6 pages arguing about a dated definition of word mother that's never used any more and you're going to say this about me after I say that male is *ALSO* used in context to gender? I was not wrong despite it not being the most often used definition. Also gender is physiological, you identify with a certain gender due to your brain being more like a males or females. You're more likely to be male gendered / brained when you have a dick, and vice versa.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42163815]So then how do you respond to this?[/QUOTE] The person who provided the egg is the mother. The surrogate in this instance is just a vessel for it to grow. [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163850]Being a mother literally just means to be a woman and raise a child, nothing more.[/QUOTE] Let's examine this. Given this criteria, females who gave birth to a child and didn't raise them aren't be biological mothers, and children who are abandoned were born by no one, as they were not raised. Adoptive parents are now biological parents, and it's impossible to find out who actually provided the DNA since those people are no longer considered parents for not raising the children. If anything it sounds like your views are archaic, since they require the biological parent to take part in the upbringing of the child. [quote]It will be possible soon to have two female sexed individuals to have a child together, both providing genetic material. It would be absurd to call one a "biological father".[/quote] Just so you know, they do this by artificially creating sperm or an egg using the person's genetics. In either case, some one will be providing sperm, and someone will be providing an egg. They don't just grow a child in a test tube using science magic or whatever you think they do. [editline]oh hamburgers[/editline] In regards to the last quote, please refer to: [QUOTE=Shadaez;42163898][img]http://i.imgur.com/qi4ZBwr.png[/img][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paramud;42163993]The person who provided the egg is the mother. The surrogate in this instance is just a vessel for it to grow.[/quote] so a man is a mother on paper? this doesn't make sense [quote] Let's examine this. Given this criteria, females who gave birth to a child and didn't raise them aren't be biological mothers, and children who are abandoned were born by no one, as they were not raised. Adoptive parents are now biological parents, and it's impossible to find out who actually provided the DNA since those people are no longer considered parents for not raising the children. If anything it sounds like your views are archaic, since they require the biological parent to take part in the upbringing of the child. [/quote] no, but if a trans man pops a baby out he should be listed on the birth certificate as a father even if the child is given up. Feel free to add who gave the egg or whatever, but there is no justifying putting a man as a mother [quote] Just so you know, they do this by artificially creating sperm or an egg using the person's genetics. In either case, some one will be providing sperm, and someone will be providing an egg. They don't just grow a child in a test tube using science magic or whatever you think they do.[/QUOTE] this isn't actually possible right now and I never implied they were grown in a test tube

[QUOTE=Shadaez;42163946]evidence? the person had a child and is a man "a man in relation to his natural child or children." so he's a father [editline]12th September 2013[/editline] you just spent 6 pages arguing about a dated definition of word mother that's never used any more and you're going to say this about me after I say that male is *ALSO* used in context to gender? I was not wrong despite it not being the most often used definition. Also gender is physiological, you identify with a certain gender due to your brain being more like a males or females. You're more likely to be male gendered / brained when you have a dick, and vice versa.[/QUOTE] How is the sperm donor not the father, based on they are the one which supplied the sperm to create the child? My context was obvious, and brought up immediately, if you use male to refer to gender anymore it makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about, as I already stated, this is due to the fact it now refers to mainly the biological sex outside of certain fields. One who identifies as male is a man, that is gender, you can be more specific by saying "trans man" or "cisgender male". Also look through the page on gender, physiological characteristics are taken into account and compared to the social characteristics attributed to them.

[QUOTE=deadoon;42164010]How is the sperm donor not the father, based on they are the one which supplied the sperm to create the child? [/quote] ugh i dont want to do this any more, literally everyone thinks of a mother as being a man who raises a child and mother as woman who raises a child, go 'debate' something else [quote]My context was obvious, and brought up immediately, if you use male to refer to gender anymore it makes it seem like you don't know what you are talking about, as I already stated, this is due to the fact it now refers to mainly the biological sex outside of certain fields. One who identifies as male is a man, that is gender, you can be more specific by saying "trans man" or "cisgender male". Also look through the page on gender, physiological characteristics are taken into account and compared to the social characteristics attributed to them.[/QUOTE] I was just letting you / everyone else know that male and female are used in context to gender as well. In your context you were talking about sex but you also said I was wrong when I pointed out that it's also used as gender.