LA CBS news crew attacked by Trayvon Martin protestors
214 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41487780]Hey yeah that's cool but ape as a derogatory word for black people was established hundreds of years ago when ignorant white europeans started using it and ignorant people in general have perpetuated it's use today.
I'm also sure it's purely coincidental that I can't find a single instance of the word ape used to reference white rioters on FP.[/QUOTE]
Golly! Racist people on an internet forum! We know you're outraged. Please, just quit talking as if you have anything new to say.
Okay, so a bunch of pictures proving our point is too much for this thread, but race apologism isn't?
This is ridiculous FP. Raidyr is totally on point. There's not one history in the Sensationalism section where we have called white rioters monkeys or apes.
[QUOTE=LoLWaT?;41487637]Then why do people bother with peaceful protests and demonstrations?
Sounds to me like you're just trying to come up with some shitty excuse to try to justify the actions of those people on the streets.
Just because you're angry at society doesn't mean you need to beat the shit out of random people, break into peoples' stores or homes and steal everything they have, and make the entire group you represent look like a bunch of shitheads and contribute to negative stereotypes and racism.
Fact is, these riots happen because people think they can get away with it. Some participate because they get caught in the moment and think it's a cool and fun thing to do.
And when more people join in because they see other people doing it, before you know it you end up with this.[/QUOTE]
but then why aren't these riots happening all the time if people are just looking to go around breaking shit. they could find any excuse in the media they wanted. the fact is that this shows an underlying dissatisfaction with the way things are done. it's people releasing anger that they have had built up for longer. again, i won't really excuse people going around hurting others, but i will look at it in context.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;41487767]You seem to forget not everyone lives in America. Please remove the pictures as well, they're not helping any sort of discussion in this thread.[/QUOTE]
"please remove clear evidence that comparing black people to primates is an established thing people do"
no what isn't helping is your useless attitude wherein if we just don't confront the problem it will disappear on it's own and it's actually the people pointing out racially insensitive language that are the real racists.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41487815]Okay, so a bunch of pictures proving our point is too much for this thread, but race apologism isn't?
This is ridiculous FP. Raidyr is totally on point. There's not one history in the Sensationalism section where we have called white rioters monkeys or apes.[/QUOTE]
It's just dumb to point this out. Each time someone says something racist, they are always called out on it on here. This forum isn't the golden epitome of society that the human race has always wanted and literally everyone knows that. "I've done the research! People are racist! I'm upset!!" and saying it over and over again does nothing.
[QUOTE=butre;41487706]syg was never even mentioned in the trial
[/QUOTE]
it was the justification used and a big talking point when martin was actually shot. so talking about syg is still valid and part of the overall conversation we should be having, in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41487826]"please remove clear evidence that comparing black people to primates is an established thing people do"
no what isn't helping is your useless attitude wherein if we just don't confront the problem it will disappear on it's own and it's actually the people pointing out racially insensitive language that are the real racists.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry that you don't see it my way, but you clearly don't even want to try. I understand where you're coming from, I see the point in calling out racists and I agree it needs to be done. But you've done it and its only a matter of spam at this point.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;41487840]It's just dumb to point this out. Each time someone says something racist, they are always called out on it on here. This forum isn't the golden epitome of society that the human race has always wanted and literally everyone knows that. "I've done the research! People are racist! I'm upset!!" and saying it over and over again does nothing.[/QUOTE]
No it's not.
Even if none of these posters are going to change their behavior, there are still guests (there's 12 of them right now) and lurkers who will read this thread and realize that making ape jokes about these rioters is racially insensitive. Having a discourse about an issue is important; pointing out racial insensitivity is important, because when you tackle racism on the Internet, you never know who is going to read those posts and change their mind.
Saying, "ignore it and it will go away" is classic cultural oppression. It's also a viewpoint commonly held by people who don't understand how oppression works because they are privileged and have no idea what it's like to be oppressed.
If you're bothered by it, you can ignore my posts. Notice, though, that moderators ban people for racism. They never ban them for pointing out racial insensitivity.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;41487767]You seem to forget not everyone lives in America. Please remove the pictures as well, they're not helping any sort of discussion in this thread.[/QUOTE]
europeans(esp. the british) are the ones who started the comparison of blacks to apes to justify the slave trade and later colonialism in africa.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;41487672]But it isn't ignoring it. It's an active attempt at changing the word's meaning by acknowledging its past and applying it to something that cannot be exclusive to one person.[/QUOTE]
if you want to do that, go ahead. i'm not going to tell you how to live your life. however, it's probably a poor choice since it will create a lot of unnecessary confusion as you try and "reclaim" the word, and you may end up getting the shit beat out of you if you try to use the word in a touchy context(like this one).
i would just go with the easy way of letting the racists have the word "ape" to designate blacks. no one is confused, and we can easily tell apart the racists/ignorant from the rest of the population.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41487878]No it's not.
Even if none of these posters are going to change their behavior, there are still guests (there's 12 of them right now) and lurkers who will read this thread and realize that making ape jokes about these rioters is racially insensitive. Having a discourse about an issue is important; pointing out racial insensitivity is important, because when you tackle racism on the Internet, you never know who is going to read those posts and change their mind.
Saying, "ignore it and it will go away" is classic cultural oppression. It's also a viewpoint commonly held by people who don't understand how oppression works because they are privileged and have no idea what it's like to be oppressed.
If you're bothered by it, you can ignore my posts. Notice, though, that moderators ban people for racism. They never ban them for pointing out racial insensitivity.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand where you think I'm ignoring it. I've clearly said that I think changing the meaning of the word, recognizing its past and exclusivity to a single skin color, and adapting it to the point where it isn't specific to one skin color.
But you're right. It's just annoying to see and yeah, I can ignore your posts but it doesn't bother me that much.
and i'm assuming you are not a person of color, so any attempts you make at changing the connotations of the word will be met with resistance since you do not face the oppression blacks do, and therefore have little authority to say how people of color should interpret the word.
Also as an aside what the fuck is a Traybot? It sounds like Traybot means that protestors and rioters are merely acting in the moment without thought, as if they were blindly following their idol Treyvon.
seriously, the best thing a white person can do to fight racism in this country is listen to the people who face institutional racism about how they feel when certain words, phrases, and attitudes are applied in day-to-day life.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41487881]if you want to do that, go ahead. i'm not going to tell you how to live your life. however, it's probably a poor choice since it will create a lot of unnecessary confusion as you try and "reclaim" the word, and you may end up getting the shit beat out of you if you try to use the word in a touchy context(like this one).
i would just go with the easy way of letting the racists have the word "ape" to designate blacks. no one is confused, and we can easily tell apart the racists/ignorant from the rest of the population.[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of a scene from Treme, where Davis (a white New Orleans native) uses "nigger" in front of his black friends, and a few black strangers are offended.
His black friends tell him to shut up and stop - even if they let him use it in front of them and see him as someone who has earned that right - but he keeps using it. So the strangers hit him and leave him with a black eye.
It doesn't really matter that Davis is a white liberal who sympathizes and understands the plight of the lower-class blacks in New Orleans. He still doesn't have the right to use that word freely. It's not really right that he got beat up, but, well, he refused to stop saying it when the strangers told him to shut up.
He doesn't really understand race, even though he wants to. Language is sensitive, and reclaiming is really something that allies cannot do. Only that people affected can pave the way towards reclaiming and destabilizing a word. Which is one of the reasons why I refuse to call my friends "niggas" when they refer to me as one and tell me I can do the same :v:.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41487927]and i'm assuming you are not a person of color, so any attempts you make at changing the connotations of the word will be met with resistance since you do not face the oppression blacks do, and therefore have little authority to say how people of color should interpret the word.[/QUOTE]
This. I faced the same issue when I did a lot of Gender Studies stuff for a non-Gender Studies class.
One feminist attacked me for creating a video about The Bechdel Test with a male narrator, and some dude claimed my work was "more gender sensitive" because I was a guy and not a woman.
The privileged can't understand the oppressed, and, occasionally, the road to hell is paved in good intentions. Sometimes allies need to sit back and watch.
I actually used the word ape to describe them as savages. Just look at them jumping around.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41487961]This reminds me of a scene from Treme, where Davis (a white New Orleans native) uses "nigger" in front of his black friends, and a few black strangers are offended.
His black friends tell him to shut up and stop - even if they let him use it in front of them and see him as someone who has earned that right - but he keeps using it. So the strangers hit him and leave him with a black eye.
It doesn't really matter that Davis is a white liberal who sympathizes and understands the plight of the lower-class blacks in New Orleans. He still doesn't have the right to use that word freely. It's not really right that he got beat up, but, well, he refused to stop saying it when the strangers told him to shut up.
He doesn't really understand race, even though he wants to. Language is sensitive, and reclaiming is really something that allies cannot do. Only that people affected can pave the way towards reclaiming and destabilizing a word. Which is one of the reasons why I refuse to call my friends "niggas" when they refer to me as one and tell me I can do the same :v:.[/QUOTE]
one of my old friends used to try and get me to say it all the time. he would say "just say it, stop being afraid of the word and use it once in a while". i still don't feel comfortable saying it in any context except a completely neutral "intellectual" conversation about race and word choice. i am not black, i am not someone of color. i don't understand the emotions and history of "nigga" from any position of experience, so i don't feel like i have any position to say it in a conversation.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
especially in a town where a lot of people use "nigger" extensively as a way of belittling others.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41487991]one of my old friends used to try and get me to say it all the time. he would say "just say it, stop being afraid of the word and use it once in a while". i still don't feel comfortable saying it in any context except a completely neutral "intellectual" conversation about race and word choice. i am not black, i am not someone of color. i don't understand the emotions and history of "nigga" from any position of experience, so i don't feel like i have any position to say it in a conversation.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
especially in a town where a lot of people use "nigger" extensively as a way of belittling others.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I mean I'm honored if someone who grew up in the shittiest section of Newark thinks I'm worthy to be called (and use) "nigga," but it's just not something a privileged white dude should really do. Something feels very uncomfortable about it. Especially if you grew up in an environment where people thought it was okay to make fun of poc by using "nigga" ironically.
There was a very good video I saw a few weeks ago, where several black rappers and musicians talked about why white women shouldn't use "nigga" in music. One of the women basically said, "If you want to use that word, you have to earn it by living our 'nigga' life. You have to let taxi cabs blow you by, etc etc. If you want to use it, you have to be in our 'nigga' shoes. If you're not, fuck off." It pretty much captures perfectly why whites cannot use those terms.
#REVENGE4TRAYTRAY
[QUOTE=Reimu;41487961]He doesn't really understand race, even though he wants to. Language is sensitive, and reclaiming is really something that allies cannot do. Only that people affected can pave the way towards reclaiming and destabilizing a word. Which is one of the reasons why I refuse to call my friends "niggas" when they refer to me as one and tell me I can do the same :v:.
[/QUOTE]
What if, for the sake of discussion, their attempt to getting you to use the word nigga is their own attempt of "paving the way?" Who are we to ignore their efforts?
(I don't actually know anything about anything, I'm just saying this for the sake of discussion.)
I can understand why people are upset by the use of "ape" to refer to the rioters, but I really don't think it warrants a 3 page debate. Of course the term has been used in the past by racist and colonialist bigots, but I doubt the posters of the comments share the same view (unless they say otherwise). I'm sure it was used as more of a way to describe their behaviour than to compare their physical features to those of a monkey. A little remark about the poster making a poor choice of word is welcome, sure, but a fully fleshed out argument about the subtleties of the phrases sounds like overkill, especially when we could discuss about much more interesting subjects.
And no, it's not the "worst argument of the year" or anything near that, especially in SH. Balls to the wall stupid arguments about death sentence come to mind.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488136]I can understand why people are upset by the use of "ape" to refer to the rioters, but I really don't think it warrants a 3 page debate. Of course the term has been used in the past by racist and colonialist bigots, but I doubt the posters of the comments share the same view (unless they say otherwise). I'm sure it was used as more of a way to describe their behaviour than to compare their physical features to those of a monkey. A little remark about the poster making a poor choice of word is welcome, sure, but a fully fleshed out argument about the subtleties of the phrases sounds like overkill, especially when we could discuss about much more interesting subjects.
And no, it's not the "worst argument of the year" or anything near that, especially in SH. Balls to the wall stupid arguments about death sentence come to mind.[/QUOTE]
The fact that you needed to even explain why we shouldn't have had a 3-page discussion about "Is ape really offensive?" just proves how awful this discussion is.
Even if you think this isn't the worst we've ever had, it's up there in shit tier.
Calling a black person an ape is always racist sorry
[QUOTE=Trogdon;41488162]Calling a black person an ape is always racist sorry[/QUOTE]
so what if I call a hispanic an ape.
[QUOTE=Laferio;41488167]so what if I call a hispanic an ape.[/QUOTE]
let's just play it safe and not use the word "ape" to describe anyone who might face cultural or institutional racism throughout their lives. it probably isn't wise to call someone who is sometimes treated as a second-class citizen or sub-human an animal.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488198]let's just play it safe and not use the word "ape" to describe anyone who might face cultural or institutional racism throughout their lives. it probably isn't wise to call someone who is sometimes treated as a second-class citizen or sub-human an animal.[/QUOTE]
This is a super easy thing to do btw, compared to having to put your hands in your pockets and always be in sight of a store manager so they don't think you're a shoplifter.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488198]let's just play it safe and not use the word "ape" to describe anyone who might face cultural or institutional racism throughout their lives. it probably isn't wise to call someone who is sometimes treated as a second-class citizen or sub-human an animal.[/QUOTE]
actually it just occurred to me lets just take it a step further and not call people we dont know mean names because thats not polite
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41487599]there are many cases of white people shooting people of color and getting away with it on syg or self-defense[/QUOTE]
Name one. Honestly this isn't a trivial question or me trying to be snotty, I honestly want to see you legitimately back up this claim.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488136]I can understand why people are upset by the use of "ape" to refer to the rioters, but I really don't think it warrants a 3 page debate. Of course the term has been used in the past by racist and colonialist bigots, but I doubt the posters of the comments share the same view (unless they say otherwise). I'm sure it was used as more of a way to describe their behaviour than to compare their physical features to those of a monkey. A little remark about the poster making a poor choice of word is welcome, sure, but a fully fleshed out argument about the subtleties of the phrases sounds like overkill, especially when we could discuss about much more interesting subjects.
And no, it's not the "worst argument of the year" or anything near that, especially in SH. Balls to the wall stupid arguments about death sentence come to mind.[/QUOTE]
well i'm hoping that a few people might read our arguments and maybe open their mind to the idea that they were accepting racially insensitive attitudes at face value. i am personally someone who held a lot of racist attitudes until i participated in arguments like these and realized that some of the stuff i previously thought to be ok were actually racially insensitive. now i actually make an effort to find racist ideas in my thought process and i hope that i'm a more tolerant and compassionate person because of it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488224]well i'm hoping that a few people might read our arguments and maybe open their mind to the idea that they were accepting racially insensitive attitudes at face value. i am personally someone who held a lot of racist attitudes until i participated in arguments like these and realized that some of the stuff i previously thought to be ok were actually racially insensitive. now i actually make an effort to find racist ideas in my thought process and i hope that i'm a more tolerant and compassionate person because of it.[/QUOTE]
Same here, along with sexism/homophobia/etc.
Part of destabilizing internalized prejudice is also actively confronting it in social settings. There's proper ways to handle it of course (You don't yell at your boss and tell him "you're a shithead" if he makes a racist joke) but it's important to actively fight discrimination in society.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488224]well i'm hoping that a few people might read our arguments and maybe open their mind to the idea that they were accepting racially insensitive attitudes at face value. i am personally someone who held a lot of racist attitudes until i participated in arguments like these and realized that some of the stuff i previously thought to be ok were actually racially insensitive. now i actually make an effort to find racist ideas in my thought process and i hope that i'm a more tolerant and compassionate person because of it.[/QUOTE]
This is where all of my apprehension comes from; there comes a point where you take things too far, and then you're not sure what is right and what is racist anymore. Then I drive myself so crazy trying to be politically correct that I stop making any sense.
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