LA CBS news crew attacked by Trayvon Martin protestors
214 replies, posted
I bet that guy dancing on the car only joined to dance
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;41488223]Name one. Honestly this isn't a trivial question or me trying to be snotty, I honestly want to see you legitimately back up this claim.[/QUOTE]
i'll do you one better and link an article that discusses it in more detail, and more scientifically.
[url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/[/url]
[img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/art/cats/cj/graph072512.png[/img]
Still a kinda minor issue unless their views support that theory. The first few posts of SH threads are rarely very developped, anyway. People just post the first things that come to mind as a reaction of sorts, not really worth discussing about IMO. Especially since it's starting to become [i]Generic Zimmerman/Trayvon thread #17: Political correctness edition[/i] when really it isn't the biggest issue out there.
I'd really like peaceful demonstrations to become more widespread. It gives a stronger message and is in general much more impressive if done massively. Civil disobedience also serve to shed light onto biased laws and situations. All those riots are doing right now is fuel the sensationalist medias and helping them convince the average Joe that it is right to take mesure against that particular ethnic group.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488263]i'll do you one better and link an article that discusses it in more detail, and more scientifically.
[URL]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/[/URL]
[IMG]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/art/cats/cj/graph072512.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Alright, thank you. I apologize if I came up harsh.
-doublepost-
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488263]i'll do you one better and link an article that discusses it in more detail, and more scientifically.
[url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/[/url]
[img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/art/cats/cj/graph072512.png[/img][/QUOTE]
The article itself even discusses how these figures aren't yet enough to prove bias. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to take this at face value. The sample sizes are far too small.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488269]I'd really like peaceful demonstrations to become more widespread. It gives a stronger message and is in general much more impressive if done massively. Civil disobedience also serve to shed light onto biased laws and situations. All those riots are doing right now is fuel the sensationalist medias and helping them convince the average Joe that it is right to take mesure against that particular ethnic group.[/QUOTE]
Actually there are a shitload of peaceful demonstrations spearheaded by some of the best social justice leaders out there right now.
The problem is that the news isn't going to report "Peaceful demonstrations once again across small inner-city urban areas, it just keeps happening and nothing interesting going on" the same way that "Assault on CBS truck" will be reported.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41488240]Same here, along with sexism/homophobia/etc.
Part of destabilizing internalized prejudice is also actively confronting it in social settings. There's proper ways to handle it of course (You don't yell at your boss and tell him "you're a shithead" if he makes a racist joke) but it's important to actively fight discrimination in society.[/QUOTE]
a friend told me the role of a "male ally" in feminism is only a supportive one. in social situations where there is a woman and a bunch of men are telling rape jokes that are making the woman obviously uncomfortable, then you might shift the conversation or say something non-confrontational to make a conversation more welcoming/safe for the woman to participate in. you don't just go around on a big crusade, constantly reminding every one of your real-life friends that you are pro-feminism or hate bigots, you just try and help make shaky social situations a little more safe.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488251]This is where all of my apprehension comes from; there comes a point where you take things too far, and then you're not sure what is right and what is racist anymore. Then I drive myself so crazy trying to be politically correct that I stop making any sense.[/QUOTE]
i get the way too sometimes. i just try not to eat myself up over it. i accept that i'm not perfect, that i'm in a process of deprogramming oppressive attitudes, a process that might only end when i die. i do what i can, and apologize for what i can't.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488291]The article itself even discusses how these figures aren't yet enough to prove bias. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to take this at face value. The sample sizes are far too small.[/QUOTE]
sample size isn't an indicator of the validity of the study. it's unfeasible for a couple scientists to analyze millions of data points in any reasonable amount of time.
you're right, these studies do not necessarily imply a racial bias, but they do show a racial disparity. that alone is enough to cause outrage with a lot of people. is it hard to see why data like this would make someone tired of white people killing blacks and being let off? is it hard to see why that outrage might eventually translate into rioting or physical violence among a large group of people in the right circumstances?
My fucking god really you idiots doing this, this is certainly time to get the police in force on the streets to make sure that there are not going to be any riots. That is what it is dwindling down to, I dislike all people that attack others with out any reason other than that is something that is actually to be justified. So please people do not start a riot that is something that I do not need happening or hearing about.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41488300]Actually there are a shitload of peaceful demonstrations spearheaded by some of the best social justice leaders out there right now.
The problem is that the news isn't going to report "Peaceful demonstrations once again across small inner-city urban areas, it just keeps happening and nothing interesting going on" the same way that "Assault on CBS truck" will be reported.[/QUOTE]
That's where civil disobedience enters into play. Block important infrastructures such as metros, roads, trainstations. Impede the function of workplaces in various ways, sequestrate key personalities. Demonstrate in highly frequented locations, or in areas where the media would feel obligated to report it. Going on a general strike could be pretty effective, too. Anything but running around hurting innocent people aimlessly like fucking idiots.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488302]sample size isn't an indicator of the validity of the study. it's unfeasible for a couple scientists to analyze millions of data points in any reasonable amount of time.
you're right, these studies do not necessarily imply a racial bias, but they do show a racial disparity. that alone is enough to cause outrage with a lot of people. is it hard to see why data like this would make someone tired of white people killing blacks and being let off? is it hard to see why that outrage might eventually translate into rioting or physical violence among a large group of people in the right circumstances?[/QUOTE]
I can see why it would make someone annoyed but that doesn't mean it's justified. We don't know the context behind [I]any[/I] of these cases. We don't know how many people in that study [I]legitimately[/I] had no other course for survival than to kill. We will never know how many of thsoe cases were wrongly called on each side. In the same way it's unjustifiable for me to draw conclusions from it it's totally unjustifiable to actually go out and murder someone because of it.
So I do understand why people are angry with those numbers. I don't understand why, to any rational mind, that means it's okay to attack totally random targets. I alluded to this in that PM I sent and I've been meaning to discuss it more on Steam.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488372]That's where civil disobedience enters into play. Block important infrastructures such as metros, roads, trainstations. Impede the function of workplaces in various ways, sequestrate key personalities. Demonstrate in highly frequented locations, or in areas where the media would feel obligated to report it. Going on a general strike could be pretty effective, too. Anything but running around hurting innocent people aimlessly like fucking idiots.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://politicalblindspot.org/i-10-protests/[/url]
and not everyone is organized or politically active. those people who are not organized but become outraged by the system are most likely to take up more random acts of violence. it's a side effect of any climate where there is a ton of outrage but not enough political mobilization throughout a populace.
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488372]That's where civil disobedience enters into play. Block important infrastructures such as metros, roads, trainstations. Impede the function of workplaces in various ways, sequestrate key personalities. Demonstrate in highly frequented locations, or in areas where the media would feel obligated to report it. Going on a general strike could be pretty effective, too. Anything but running around hurting innocent people aimlessly like fucking idiots.[/QUOTE]
I know there's been a good number of cases where civil disobedience has successfully stopped cars, clogged up roads, halted the infrastructure, etc.
I just think the media doesn't want to report as much on that, compared to the riots themselves. Either way, if you go to these different communities, it's clear that these protests are huge and are peaceful. Time Square even had a gigantic one the other night.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488388]I can see why it would make someone annoyed but that doesn't mean it's justified. We don't know the context behind [I]any[/I] of these cases. We don't know how many people in that study [I]legitimately[/I] had no other course for survival than to kill. We will never know how many of thsoe cases were wrongly called on each side. In the same way it's unjustifiable for me to draw conclusions from it it's totally unjustifiable to actually go out and murder someone because of it.
So I do understand why people are angry with those numbers. I don't understand why, to any rational mind, that means it's okay to attack totally random targets. I alluded to this in that PM I sent and I've been meaning to discuss it more on Steam.[/QUOTE]
it's not ok, but in any time where people are sufficiently frustrated, these things will happen. to understand the causes is not to justify it. i think it's incredibly unfortunate that anyone is being hurt through random acts of violence. i just think the issue is more complex than just "bad people doing bad things".
i mean if you really want to get to the root of this, if you don't like white people being beat up by groups of black people over a court case, stop having a racist court system. fight against a system and culture that gives people a reason to be frustrated, angry, and more likely to commit acts of violence against others. when you fight the inequality, you fight against the rioting and random violence as well as fight against an oppressive system.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41488428]I know there's been a good number of cases where civil disobedience has successfully stopped cars, clogged up roads, halted the infrastructure, etc.
I just think the media doesn't want to report as much on that, compared to the riots themselves. Either way, if you go to these different communities, it's clear that these protests are huge and are peaceful. Time Square even had a gigantic one the other night.[/QUOTE]
Another piece that bothers me is that I'm not sure what we're meant to be protesting. Are we protesting courts? Are we protesting that a supposedly guilty man was ruled not guilty (which, for all we know, he bloody well could actually be not guilty?) Are we using this case as a protest for every case previously like that? Are we protesting institutional racism in general? There's no organization.
I'm going to be using the Mother Teresa allusion again; sure, a lot of good could potentially be done in the name of this verdict, but for all we know it could be good done on the foundation of lies (the potential that an innocent man could be used as the scapegoat used to take the fall that sparks a social revolution.) And that thought doesn't sit well with me.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488399][url]http://politicalblindspot.org/i-10-protests/[/url]
and not everyone is organized or politically active. those people who are not organized but become outraged by the system are most likely to take up more random acts of violence. it's a side effect of any climate where there is a ton of outrage but not enough political mobilization throughout a populace.[/QUOTE]
Uh. You'd think that in the era of Facebook and Twitter, which everyone and their mum use, organising events would be easy.
So when it comes to organising 10,000 people orgy, there's no problem in planning it. But if it's about rightful protesting, it suddenly becomes too hard to do. Protesters taking part in the Middle-East revolutions several years ago made extensive usage of those tools and used them effectively, why would it be any different with these ghetto inhabitants ?
As for being politically active, these rioters seems implicated enough to use that Zimmerman case as an excuse for their acts of violence. If they are genuinely concerned about their social situation and don't just want to loot stuff and beat people, then they should be politically active enough.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488441]I mean if you really want to get to the root of this, if you don't like white people being beat up by groups of black people over a court case, stop having a racist court system. fight against a system and culture that gives people a reason to be frustrated, angry, and more likely to commit acts of violence against others. when you fight the inequality, you fight against the rioting and random violence as well as fight against an oppressive system.[/QUOTE]
It's not like the white people who were beat up had any more power over the status of inequality than the guys who beat them up, though.
"Traybots" is right up there with lieberals and CONservatives
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41488521]"Traybots" is right up there with lieberals and CONservatives[/QUOTE]
beep boop, son, beep boop [img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-911.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;41488223]Name one. Honestly this isn't a trivial question or me trying to be snotty, I honestly want to see you legitimately back up this claim.[/QUOTE]
I asked this the page before and got no response:
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;41487622]With so many cases of white-on-black violence in the name of Stand Your Ground, you should very easily be able give me multiple specific examples where a white person got away with murdering a black person.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488263]i'll do you one better and link an article that discusses it in more detail, and more scientifically.
[url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/[/url]
[img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/art/cats/cj/graph072512.png[/img][/QUOTE]
I'll refute that in a bit, but you still have yet to give me even one specific case. Again, since it's so common you should be able to give me a list of specific cases.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488491]Another piece that bothers me is that I'm not sure what we're meant to be protesting. Are we protesting courts? Are we protesting that a supposedly guilty man was ruled not guilty (which, for all we know, he bloody well could actually be not guilty?) Are we using this case as a protest for every case previously like that? Are we protesting institutional racism in general? There's no organization.
I'm going to be using the Mother Teresa allusion again; sure, a lot of good could potentially be done in the name of this verdict, but for all we know it could be good done on the foundation of lies (the potential that an innocent man could be used as the scapegoat used to take the fall that sparks a social revolution.) And that thought doesn't sit well with me.[/QUOTE]
everyone has a different reason for protesting. some truly believe zimmerman is guilty, some white people are coming out to show solidarity with the frustration a lot of people of color are feeling right now, some have broader goals to protest racism as a whole.
what is going on is a collective release of outrage and anger at "the system's" attitude towards race. it's very broad, and while there are tons of organizations operating throughout it, there is no central organization among everyone. this is a cry that they don't want to just deal with all of this anymore, so in that sense i will stand firmly with the protests.
martin is no symbol to me, this court case is shaky as hell to me, and i am not racially oppressed. but i do feel some empathy to the people who are fed up with the way the system treats them because i personally am fed up with the way the system treats me, even though my own experiences are of a very different nature.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=_Axel;41488497]Uh. You'd think that in the era of Facebook and Twitter, which everyone and their mum use, organising events would be easy.
So when it comes to organising 10,000 people orgy, there's no problem in planning it. But if it's about rightful protesting, it suddenly becomes too hard to do. Protesters taking part in the Middle-East revolutions several years ago made extensive usage of those tools and used them effectively, why would it be any different with these ghetto inhabitants ?
As for being politically active, these rioters seems implicated enough to use that Zimmerman case as an excuse for their acts of violence. If they are genuinely concerned about their social situation and don't just want to loot stuff and beat people, then they should be politically active enough.[/quote]
people in those revolutions weren't "organized" in the sense that i was talking about. social media has made most of the trayvon martin protests possible and easily accessible for people. still, there is a difference between showing up at a park with a bunch of strangers to march through the streets than it is to actually go to meetings, participate in workshops, learn protest/riot tactics, and create working relationships with other activists. those who are "organized" into actual political groups will have an easier time dealing with issues like random violence simply because they are prepared for it, have experienced it, and have a relationship with the people at their shoulders.
[quote]It's not like the white people who were beat up had any more power over the status of inequality than the guys who beat them up, though.[/QUOTE]
yea, it's misplaced anger and frustration. it also wouldn't happen in a racially egalitarian society.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488548]everyone has a different reason for protesting. some truly believe zimmerman is guilty, some white people are coming out to show solidarity with the frustration a lot of people of color are feeling right now, some have broader goals to protest racism as a whole.
what is going on is a collective release of outrage and anger at "the system's" attitude towards race. it's very broad, and while there are tons of organizations operating throughout it, there is no central organization among everyone. this is a cry that they don't want to just deal with all of this anymore, so in that sense i will stand firmly with the protests.
martin is no symbol to me, this court case is shaky as hell to me, and i am not racially oppressed. but i do feel some empathy to the people who are fed up with the way the system treats them because i personally am fed up with the way the system treats me, even though my own experiences are of a very different nature.[/QUOTE]
My biggest fear is just that this is being done at the expense of the truth. Which is why I'm being extremely careful about the whole ordeal. That said I, among everybody else, will go to the grave not knowing if true justice was actually served on July 13th and during the subsequent days.
I didn't realize how a self-defense case like this could cause an unnecessary situation. Clearly this is how some misunderstood thing such as racism becomes a major problem in the effect.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;41488302]a friend told me the role of a "male ally" in feminism is only a supportive one. in social situations where there is a woman and a bunch of men are telling rape jokes that are making the woman obviously uncomfortable, then you might shift the conversation or say something non-confrontational to make a conversation more welcoming/safe for the woman to participate in. you don't just go around on a big crusade, constantly reminding every one of your real-life friends that you are pro-feminism or hate bigots, you just try and help make shaky social situations a little more safe.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The way my fellow allies and I discuss it, male allies are there to support and (occasionally) discuss. They aren't there to set the agenda or lead the movement.
The most valuable allies always know when to stand down, shut up, or work towards a safe environment. They're never there to reap the rewards of the name without doing anything positive towards any sexism/bigotry.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488491]Another piece that bothers me is that I'm not sure what we're meant to be protesting. Are we protesting courts? Are we protesting that a supposedly guilty man was ruled not guilty (which, for all we know, he bloody well could actually be not guilty?) Are we using this case as a protest for every case previously like that? Are we protesting institutional racism in general? There's no organization.
I'm going to be using the Mother Teresa allusion again; sure, a lot of good could potentially be done in the name of this verdict, but for all we know it could be good done on the foundation of lies (the potential that an innocent man could be used as the scapegoat used to take the fall that sparks a social revolution.) And that thought doesn't sit well with me.[/QUOTE]
I think there's a major issue in the protests in that many people are outraged at the case's ramifications, so they're right away targeting the verdict. Which isn't fair - it's pretty clear, tbqh, that Trayvon acted violently towards Zimmerman and Zimmerman had no choice but to shoot Trayvon. The complicated issue is a.) why Trayvon would confront Zimmerman (frustration due to previous experience with racial profiling seems highly likely) b.) why self-defense cases seemed to be tipped towards whites c.) why is there no discussion in the media about the anger caused by racial profiling (it's plausible, again, that racial profiling in the past led to Trayvon's frustration, seeing how virtually every single POC voice is saying the same thing - they've experienced racial profiling in the past and are sick of it), and d.) why laws like SYG are in place even though they seem to favor whites.
It's very complicated; #justice4trayvon sounds nice but it's very vague. What, in specific, is going to bring him justice? It seems like right now the main unifying goal is a Civil Suit and a Civil Rights case. Either way though, the protests [i]are[/i] unifying POC and social justice communities. And that's important.
The important thing is that the protests unify the POC movements so they can create a focused, tight-knit community in order to tackle the ramifications of the issue itself in future cases. If that happens, then the POC community's protests will have succeeded dramatically. Regardless if nothing changes within the Zimmerman case itself. Centralizing a community and building solidarity is one of the keys to social change.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;41488598]My biggest fear is just that this is being done at the expense of the truth. Which is why I'm being extremely careful about the whole ordeal. That said I, among everybody else, will go to the grave not knowing if true justice was actually served on July 13th and during the subsequent days.[/QUOTE]
yea none of us will never know for a fact whether zimmerman is guilty or not, except zimmerman himself. so we might as well deal with what we do know, that maybe it's a good opportunity to open up the conversation about race and maybe become better people for it.
It seems like some posters in this thread just love to get riled up and cause any sort of stupid, unnecessary argument.
Just because you may have always heard the term ape being used against blacks doesn't mean that's the only way 'ape' will be used.
They were called apes because [B]thats what they're acting like[/B]. This has been said about 10 times in this thread and yet the bickering continues with the "racism" for calling them apes.
They're running around, [B]jumping on cars[/B] and beating every random thing in sight. Sort of like an ape would do, right?
[QUOTE=PonceDeLeon;41488688]It seems like some posters in this thread just love to get riled up and cause any sort of stupid, unnecessary argument.
Just because you may have always heard the term ape being used against blacks doesn't mean that's the only way 'ape' will be used.
They were called apes because [B]thats what they're acting like[/B]. This has been said about 10 times in this thread and yet the bickering continues with the "racism" for calling them apes.
They're running around, [B]jumping on cars[/B] and beating every random thing in sight. Sort of like an ape would do, right?[/QUOTE]
That's Facepunch for you
[QUOTE=PonceDeLeon;41488688]It seems like some posters in this thread just love to get riled up and cause any sort of stupid, unnecessary argument.
Just because you may have always heard the term ape being used against blacks doesn't mean that's the only way 'ape' will be used.
They were called apes because [B]thats what they're acting like[/B]. This has been said about 10 times in this thread and yet the bickering continues with the "racism" for calling them apes.
They're running around, [B]jumping on cars[/B] and beating every random thing in sight. Sort of like an ape would do, right?[/QUOTE]
Okay, so find me a news source where we're talking about white rioters and calling them apes.
[QUOTE=PonceDeLeon;41488688]It seems like some posters in this thread just love to get riled up and cause any sort of stupid, unnecessary argument.
Just because you may have always heard the term ape being used against blacks doesn't mean that's the only way 'ape' will be used.
They were called apes because [B]thats what they're acting like[/B]. This has been said about 10 times in this thread and yet the bickering continues with the "racism" for calling them apes.
They're running around, [B]jumping on cars[/B] and beating every random thing in sight. Sort of like an ape would do, right?[/QUOTE]
like i said, it's pretty insensitive to refer to someone who has likely been treated as sub-human or a second-class citizen an animal, especially when that comparison has been used to justify a very brutal oppression of that person's racial group.
When I googled "rioters apes" or "rioters monkeys" all I saw were cases where poc rioters were called "monkeys" or "apes" in Stockholm or London.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41488727]Okay, so find me a news source where we're talking about white rioters and calling them apes.[/QUOTE]
There may be white rioters, there may not be many at all. But that's besides the whole point.
They've been called apes because they were simply acting exactly like an ape would.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41488727]Okay, so find me a news source where we're talking about white rioters and calling them apes.[/QUOTE]
it doesn't even matter if he could because whites have never, as a group, had to deal with being treated as sub-human. we don't have a history of being legally property, or having our homeland brutally exploited. calling me an ape is not the same as calling a black person as an ape because i have never been referred to or treated as an ape based on my skin color before.
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