• Stephen Hawking says afterlife is a "fairy story"
    456 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29893805]Ahem[/QUOTE] and you ignore the more important part of the post...
If no one else observes you dreaming, are you really dreaming? It's the same deal. You wouldn't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them.
[QUOTE=Bot02;29893809]Wow, THIS again? Who the hell cares who other people think? I'm religious, and I have my own beliefs, but it's completely retarded having people fight about it.[/QUOTE] wow that was constructive, smart, brief, and summed up intelligent discussion in a nutshell i think
[QUOTE=Sanius;29893839]then don't post[/QUOTE] Why wouldn't I post?
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29893854]If no one else observes you dreaming, are you really dreaming? It's the same deal. You can't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them.[/QUOTE] :argh: What are you doing?
this argument is physically painful to read
The same way you wouldn't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them or measured them, I'm not going to say that my "soul" or consciousness doesn't exist because no one else can see it or measure it. You can "observe" when someone is dreaming, but you can also "observe" when someone is conscious. If you don't get it at this point, I don't think there's any more I can do. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] You keep bringing up Philosophy 101. If you seriously took a philosophy class, it must have been a really shitty one.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29893854]If no one else observes you dreaming, are you really dreaming? It's the same deal. You can't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them.[/QUOTE] If I trip out on acid, experience wicked sights and events, I know those events weren't real. They were imaginary. But like a dream, I experienced them. I felt them. They became a part of a personal reality, a stream of consciousness essentially. This is what forms the mental image we all have of ourselves, the stream of consciousness. But what those events prescribe to interms of a time line and events, is based on a more subjectively viewed reality that we all live in. What can't be quantified, qualified, repeated and demonstrated most likely doesn't exist. This isn't to say nothing non observed doesn't exist, but rather to say that what can be proven certainly exists in some form, but what cannot needs to be proved before it can be accepted as existing. Why you seem to believe your idea can go over and above the idea of proof as if you're too good for proof, is beyond me. If you REALLY believe you've an invisible little extra bit that's certainly beyond any sort of explanation we could imagine in terms of where it comes from and what it is, then good for you, but as a rational person, I want proof to believe that. I want explanations, why having that little extra invisible unknowable bit is essential or not, where it comes from, what the fuck it's for, etc, but because I don't see that and can't be proven that in anyway according to you besides to just "know it" which is about as dumb and worthless an explanation you can get, I'm going to just say you're entitled to your opinion, but you're self deluded. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29893937]The same way you wouldn't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them or measured them, I'm not going to say that my "soul" or consciousness doesn't exist because no one else can see it or measure it. You can "observe" when someone is dreaming, but you can also "observe" when someone is conscious. If you don't get it at this point, I don't think there's any more I can do. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] You keep bringing up Philosophy 101. If you seriously took a philosophy class, it must have been a really shitty one.[/QUOTE] No, it was a pretty great metaphysics class, but you're the one missing things, not me.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29893977]If I trip out on acid, experience wicked sights and events, I know those events weren't real. They were imaginary. But like a dream, I experienced them. I felt them. They became a part of a personal reality, a stream of consciousness essentially. This is what forms the mental image we all have of ourselves, the stream of consciousness. But what those events prescribe to interms of a time line and events, is based on a more subjectively viewed reality that we all live in. What can't be quantified, qualified, repeated and demonstrated most likely doesn't exist. This isn't to say nothing non observed doesn't exist, but rather to say that what can be proven certainly exists in some form, but what cannot needs to be proved before it can be accepted as existing. Why you seem to believe your idea can go over and above the idea of proof as if you're too good for proof, is beyond me. If you REALLY believe you've an invisible little extra bit that's certainly beyond any sort of explanation we could imagine in terms of where it comes from and what it is, then good for you, but as a rational person, I want proof to believe that. I want explanations, why having that little extra invisible unknowable bit is essential or not, where it comes from, what the fuck it's for, etc, but because I don't see that and can't be proven that in anyway according to you besides to just "know it" which is about as dumb and worthless an explanation you can get, I'm going to just say you're entitled to your opinion, but you're self deluded.[/QUOTE] I'm starting to wonder if you've been strawmanning me this whole time or if you really, truly don't understand my argument. [QUOTE]If you REALLY believe you've an invisible little extra bit that's certainly beyond any sort of explanation we could imagine in terms of where it comes from and what it is[/QUOTE] Really, are you just adding this shit in because you think it makes me look ridiculous or do you honestly think that's what I mean when I say "soul" or consciousness? Like I said, you're strawmanning, and I'm getting tired of it.
You have no arguement.
[QUOTE]If I trip out on acid, experience wicked sights and events, I know those events weren't real. They were imaginary. But like a dream, I experienced them. I felt them. They became a part of a personal reality, a stream of consciousness essentially. This is what forms the mental image we all have of ourselves, the stream of consciousness. But what those events prescribe to interms of a time line and events, is based on a more subjectively viewed reality that we all live in.[/QUOTE] It's like, you get it, but you keep arguing with me for shits and giggles.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894079]I'm starting to wonder if you've been strawmanning me this whole time or if you really, truly don't understand my argument. Really, are you just adding this shit in because you think it makes me look ridiculous or do you honestly think that's what I mean when I say "soul" or consciousness? Like I said, you're strawmanning, and I'm getting tired of it.[/QUOTE] Your argument as I understand it is that we all have a soul or consciousness(yes, we're all conscious, which is to say we all have thoughts and we all have minds), but some people are more aware of it than others and this awareness is only observable to them.
[QUOTE=AK'z;29894115]You have no arguement.[/QUOTE] If I have no argument, what the fuck do you have?
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894147]If I have no argument, what the fuck do you have?[/QUOTE] intelligence
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29894142]Your argument as I understand it is that we all have a soul or consciousness(yes, we're all conscious, which is to say we all have thoughts and we all have minds), but some people are more aware of it than others and this awareness is only observable to them.[/QUOTE] I don't think some people are more aware of it than others, but some people seem to deny it. I think the main problem here is I'm making a distinction between being chemical robots with no consciousness that take input, process it, and produce output, and human beings, which have consciousness. For some reason you seem to think there's no difference between the two.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894147]If I have no argument, what the fuck do you have?[/QUOTE] Soul. <<< Proof right there :smug:
[QUOTE=Sanius;29894163]intelligence[/QUOTE] Then maybe he should use his intelligence to actually contribute to the debate instead of just insulting me and claiming that I have no argument.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894215]I don't think some people are more aware of it than others, but some people seem to deny it. I think the main problem here is I'm making a distinction between being chemical robots with no consciousness that take input, process it, and produce output, and human beings, which have consciousness. For some reason you seem to think there's no difference between the two.[/QUOTE] Because you've DEMONSTRATED NO DIFFERENCES IN ANY WAY AT ALL. Why would I believe that if you've made there no reason for that to be true? Why would I believe that when there's no discernible differences?
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894243]Then maybe he should use his intelligence to actually contribute to the debate instead of just insulting me and claiming that I have no argument.[/QUOTE] You're dull and you have no arguement.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29894278]Because you've DEMONSTRATED NO DIFFERENCES IN ANY WAY AT ALL. Why would I believe that if you've made there no reason for that to be true? Why would I believe that when there's no discernible differences?[/QUOTE] My point throughout the entire fucking topic is, there is no functional difference to the outside, to anyone else. But to the human being in question, there is a difference. That's my point when I say something exists which can't be scientifically measured.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29893937]The same way you wouldn't say your dreams don't exist because no one else saw them or measured them, I'm not going to say that my "soul" or consciousness doesn't exist because no one else can see it or measure it. You can "observe" when someone is dreaming, but you can also "observe" when someone is conscious. If you don't get it at this point, I don't think there's any more I can do. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] You keep bringing up Philosophy 101. If you seriously took a philosophy class, it must have been a really shitty one.[/QUOTE] Reading a wikipedia article or a WordPress blog about Philosophy does not constitute a class. You have never taken one, that is apparent. Or if you did, you slept through every class. Dreaming is part of an electrochemical occurrence (REM) in the brain that basically creates hallucinations, just like how a drug can cause hallucinations by fucking with the chemicals in your brain. That is how it works. There is no "but what if" to it. If you want to try and argue against that, you are wrong to the highest extent. Like HumanAbyss said, its part of a personal reality. That personal reality is simply all the little electrochemical simulations our brain has experienced kept as memories, kinda like the data saved to a computer hard drive. They are stored, but they are not part of the real world, they were just activities in the human brain. End of discussion.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894321]My point throughout the entire fucking topic is, there is no functional difference to the outside, to anyone else. But to the human being in question, there is a difference. That's my point when I say something exists which can't be scientifically measured.[/QUOTE] which isn't a fucking argument
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894321]My point throughout the entire fucking topic is, there is no functional difference to the outside, to anyone else. But to the human being in question, there is a difference. That's my point when I say something exists which can't be scientifically measured.[/QUOTE] Oh, so that means I'll be reincarnated as a butterfly. Goddammit. :smith:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29894353]which isn't a fucking argument[/QUOTE] Precisely. You can't argue for something that has no backing outside your own perception.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29894392]Precisely. You can't argue for something that has no backing outside your own perception.[/QUOTE] I'm trying to get them to realize something about their own perception, but fuck it, it obviously isn't working. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=AK'z;29894389]Oh, so that means I'll be reincarnated as a butterfly. Goddammit. :smith:[/QUOTE] Alright, I've been holding of judgement until now, but you are an idiot. And I'm not saying this because we have a difference of opinion, I'm saying this because you do nothing but throw insults from the sidelines when you don't even know what the fuck anyone is talking about.
I bet it can be scientifically measured, I bet, we can figure out what compounds in your brain are mixing and what reactions are happening at some point in our future to figure out exactly why certain thoughts happen. That would prove better than anything, why you think the way you do. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894449]I'm trying to get them to realize something about their own perception, but fuck it, it obviously isn't working. [editline]17th May 2011[/editline] Alright, I've been holding of judgement until now, but you are an idiot.[/QUOTE] That we can't base our lives and beliefs off proof in all situations? Yeah, that's not going to fly with a rational crowd(shit, I just called facepunch rational...)
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;29894449]I'm trying to get them to realize something about their own perception, but fuck it, it obviously isn't working.[/QUOTE] Because you know nothing about this subject. Nothing at all. Absolutely jack shit. You have zero knowledge on the matter. Nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!
I thought we already figured what chemicals are dispursed in death? Apparently a large amount of brain activity occurs which may contain an afterlife of sorts. But I doubt this had much sustainance.
You know what, I know I've got soul, and this is how. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyTifrKB-y0[/media]
[QUOTE=AK'z;29894536]I thought we already figured what chemicals are dispursed in death? Apparently a large amount of brain activity occurs which may contain an afterlife of sorts. But I doubt this had much sustainance.[/QUOTE] Do believe that was mentioned a while back in the topic. It seems we're not quite sure but there's a lot of ideas in a lot of directions at this point. I'm personally still saying it's a massive DMT trip.
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